15 replies to this topic

[Pinselborste]

After thinking a bit about autocannons, i came up with an idea.

The plan is to have 3 different kinds of ACs, together with recoil based on the autocannons caliber and the location it is mounted in.

1. High caliber autocannons: Basicly the ACs we have now, just a bit tweaked to go together with the others.

pro: High damage per hit, easier to use at longer ranges.

con: High recoil, low rate of fire, low ammount of ammo per ton, lower dps than small and medium caliber ACs.



2. Medium caliber autocannons: These ACs have a higher firerate than the high caliber ACs, together with more ammo per ton, lower damage per hit and moderate recoil.

pro: firerate about 200% higher than high caliber ACs, easier to use against smaller and faster mechs, higher dps than high caliber ACs, more ammo per ton.

con: lower damage per hit, harder to focus damage at longer ranges, a bit more heat than high caliber ACs.



3. Small caliber autocannons: These ACs have a firerate compareable to the machinegun and offer the highest damage per second.

pro: extreme firerate, low recoil, high damage per second, great against faster moving targets and light mechs.

con: hard to focus damage at long range, lowest ammount of damage per hit, limited to Standard ACs



Each caliber type will have the 4 Standard AC classes, small autocannon (like ac2) medium autocannon (like ac5) large autocannon (like ac10) extra larger autocannon (like ac20).

damage, firerate, heat, rane, projectile Speed would Need to be balanced with up and downsides between both caliber class and autocannon size.

Ultra autocannons are part of the medium caliber class and the LBX ACs are part of the high caliber ACs.



Recoil:

Recoil depends on caliber and weight of the autocannon, and also the location it is mounted in.

Autocannons in the armso will move the arms up after firing.

Autocannons in the side torso will have reduced recoil but will move the torso together with the arms up and to the side depending if the AC is in the left or right torso.

Firing ACs in both side torso results in a way higher recoil than pulls the crosshair up and will shake the mech a bit.




Tell me what you think about this.

Edited by Pinselborste, 04 July 2013 - 08:44 AM.

[GENnachocheese]

i really like the idea, especially the recoil.

[WALD]

Recoil is a necessity. All direct fire weapons (including PPC's) should have recoil. If they ever re-implement falling over then firing 6 PPC's or 2 AC/20's or 4 LB-10X's at once should knock you on your back. Then even if you decided to chain fire the 6 PPC's your sights would have you pointing straight up by the time you fired the 6th one. Recoil on single AC/20's wouldn't be much of a problem seeing as how if you were in a stock HBK-4G with it's one autocannon the rate of fire on the one wouldn't affect your shots unless you were also trying to fire you lasers right after the initial AC/20 shot.

Also seeing the somewhat rise to the quad-quintuple AC/2 builds popping up it would make those that macro them to fire them at insane fire rates really hard to keep on target.

Just my 2 cents on a good idea about recoil.

[toasting]

This is a great idea - although the rate of fire times might need to be adjusted over time for balance.

Would love if they did a redesign that they also added flight trajectory for the projectiles in too.

Wald's quick breakdown of recoil there too sounds like it would add more "feel" to the game rather than just point and shoot

[Corvus Antaka]

i believe it would be sufficient to simply tweak weapons values.

cut ac 20 recycle to 3 seconds, add 4-8 more heat per shot, max range of 350m. real brawling gun now, but terrifying in close. same type of inline change for the ac 10.

lbx needs to do more damage per pellet and at inside 150m the lbx 10 should be hittin 1-2 locations with heavy force, lbx 20 even more so, these guns are worthless at range and we need brawlers to be more effective.

tweaking srms seems to be a desire, but srms are not the pure brawling guns, lbx 20 and ac 20 and 10's are, and right now outside the ac 20 which is op because its not hot enough and it has way to much max range our brawling options suck, and even inclose the ac20 recycle is the same as a ppc making it a negligible choice in many ways.

[Pinselborste]

thank you for the comments guys. i added a poll now.

also on a second thought, modules could be used to tweak weapons a bit too, like 10% less recoil and 10% less range, or 10% damage for 20% more recoil.

[SweetWarmIce]

Mechs automatically compensate for recoil when they fire. Though having the reticules move by a few millimetres then readjusting would be cool.

[Pinselborste]

SweetWarmIce, on 05 July 2013 - 01:13 AM, said:

Mechs automatically compensate for recoil when they fire. Though having the reticules move by a few millimetres then readjusting would be cool.

compensate could also mean that they move the part where the weapon is mounted a bit so it doesnt fall over, pretty much like the gun on a tank compensates the recoil by sliding back instead of pushing the turret ouf of its mount

[Drunk Canuck]

There should be recoil for all AC's mounted in the arms of non assault Mech's, however you would have to add more physics to increase the amount of motion depending on the AC type. AC2's should have a small amount of recoil individually, but grouping them would force your torso to twist from side to side if you are chain firing between arms on a Cataphract or Jagermech. Weight would also have to be considered if you had recoil, an AC20 firing out of the arms of a 65 ton Mech would cause you to have a massive amount of recoil per shot, and firing two at once would cause your arms to shift up when you fire, it would literally have to work like holding a real gun. I think they could even add in recoil for the Gauss and PPC's since they are firing a fair amount of power at a high rate of speed right from the launcher.

Torso mounted ballistics would have to see reduced recoil because the torso is supported by the engine and the gyroscope is another part of the system, while the arms are further away from the body and work on actuators, naturally they should have a bit of motion when firing, even if it is just moving targeting reticle off a fair bit so you can't just spam fire without having to adjust your crosshairs/

[General Taskeen]

Basically what people want is the recoil from MW3, something like that?

I thought it was pretty cool in that game. Added to the 'simulation' feel.

[Khobai]

So basically you want them to triple the number of autocannons when they cant even balance the four we have now?

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

Reference recoil;

I'm sorry but I do not agree with what you are attempting to see as Very large caliber guns firing profiles and how recoil effects them. The effects some are describing are for small or hand held type systems.(climbing effect)(part of "Newton's law of motion")

The large weapons systems currently in use 105mm, 120mm, 155mm and larger do not have a climbing effect and the entire recoil is compensated with the barrel moving straight back, being slowed and reset to it firing position.[The barrel moves, whereas small weapons it does not.]
-Recoil mechanism-
Designed to absorb energy of recoil gradually, avoiding violent shock or movement of the carriage.
Functions of the recoil system:
Stops the recoiling parts
Returns recoiling parts to the firing position (in Battery)
Prevents excessive shock to the carriage
Keeps tube in Battery at all angles and elevation

Now this effect is not enabled within this game (would be nice) but helps explain why when the arm mounted weapons fire the entire upper torso is not jerked sideways, and similar the large hip fired weapons don't "jackknife" the Mech.
Additionally the pilots target reticle is through a "Targeting Computer" and not connected to the weapon system so there should be no movement off target for the pilot. There should not even be any wait time for the gun to be back on target and ready to fire as the only time "not ready" would be during the reload cycle, and tracking continues through out that time.

From the other side of the recoil debate,
Real tank 105 or 120mm guns:(rifled or smoothbore)
Even with most of the recoil being absorbed by the gun's systems, when firing a 105mm tank the entire vehicle rocks violently as the round leaves the vehicle as well as the concussion wave blasting over the vehicle. (a little like being slapped in the face with a 2x4, forget what you see in the movies, that's Hollywood and nowhere near real or as violent. In fact if your standing close and don't have you mouth open concussion can do bad things.) Check YouTube for Leopard tank or M1 tank firing and you will see these effects from a 120mm round.

Sorry to bring real life into this imaginary world. But this is how really big guns work.

9erRed

Edited by 9erRed, 26 August 2013 - 11:04 AM.

[kingalbertII]

maybe make the recoil affected by mech weight
a light Blackjack would be pushed back a lot harder than a gigantic Highlander by the same weapon

[CDLord HHGD]

Any idea has to take into account the Lore of the genre. This isn't lore....

[Strum Wealh]

cdlord, on 24 August 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

Any idea has to take into account the Lore of the genre. This isn't lore....

Actually, the "recoil as a factor that affects the BattleMech in combat" element is part of BT lore.

Quote

Stacy snarled a wolf’s smile and squeezed her triggers.

The LB 10-X autocannon in the Zeus’ left forearm belched fire and kicked, the recoil momentarily swinging the Zeus’ torso out of alignment. Stacy fought her controls and brought the Zeus’ other weapons to bear even as the cannon fire tore at the Excalibur’s chest. The heavy PPC erupted to life, cutting at the Excalibur’s shattered armor and exploding through it. White-hot ravening particles ate at the ’Mech’s inner structure, tearing at the protection around its fusion engine. A flare on the Zeus’s infrared monitors told her she denuded the engine of protection, and it automatically shut down to prevent a rupture. The Excalibur collapsed backward, smoking, as Stacy slowed the Zeus near the wreckage of Barstow’s Phoenix Hawk."

{Wolf and Blake, pg. 08}

Quote

The BattleMaster’s primary targeting reticule flashed from red to green as the assault ’Mech exited the building. Michael jerked his controls, bringing the crosshairs to rest over the Mad Cat’s torso. He breathed in, half a breath, waiting until he felt the shot, then squeezed the trigger. All eighty-five tons of the BattleMaster shook with recoil as the Gauss rifle fired. The hiss-crack of the hypersonic round firing blended with the bang as the solid shot struck the Mad Cat high on the chest, just beneath the box missile launcher. Michael squeezed his other trigger. Four needle-sharp ER medium lasers flickered, burning away more armor. The Mad Cat lurched sideways, half-crushing the sheet-metal wall of the building it’d been examining.

{Fist and Falcon, pg. 03}

Quote

Alex waited for the targeting cross hairs to flash red, then hit the firing studs for both missile racks in quick succession. The Archer staggered under the multiple recoil of forty missiles streaking from the tubes.

Slow and stately, the DropShip was lifting off, but it gathered speed as it rose from the tarmac like some impossible prehistoric flying beast disturbed from an age-long slumber. There was a rippling of explosions near the underside of the spherical vessel as some of Alex's missiles found their mark, but he didn't even bother with the BDA readouts. He knew the attack wouldn't cause enough damage to penetrate the thick armor. Not yet.

{Blood of Heroes, chapter 28}

Quote

With energy needs so great that only a nuclear engine can keep it charged, the heavy Gauss rifle actually generates - through sheer kinetic energy - enough recoil to destabilize its firing unit.

{TechManual, pg. 218}

Quote

More than just a basic sensor tracking and targeting array, the Targeting Computer actually helps its gunner aim physically. This is accomplished through a series of recoil compensators and gyroscopic stabilizers that combine to counter much of the routine weapon drift caused by the shooter’s own lurching motions, muzzle recoil and other environmental conditions.

{TechManual, pg. 238}

On the other hand, the BT lore also points out that the BattleMech itself can make adjustments to compensate for some (though, obviously, not all) of the recoil from the various weapons.

Quote

It is also mostly up to the BattleMech to compensate for the recoil of its autocannons or the blasts of hostile fire while moving in the direction a MechWarrior sets. Yes, a MechWarrior can correct the BattleMech on its balance, such as telling the BattleMech when to ride with the blasts rather than leaning against them, or when to throw itself off -balance and into another BattleMech, but a lot of the decision-making gets done by the DI computer.

{TechManual, pg. 42}

The recoil issue could go either way, though more material seems to support the notion of there being enough recoil in the weapons (other than perhaps the lasers, flamers, and MGs) that the BattleMech, by itself, generally cannot compensate for all of it; having a Targeting Computer can help, but it would seem that there would/should always be at least some recoil that has to be addressed by the MechWarrior.

[Strum Wealh]

Also, it should be noted that the four AC designations (AC/2, AC/5, AC/10, and AC/20) actually represent "families" of weapons, and that each family includes several individual weapons of different calibers and shell-per-burst counts.

Nebfer, on 08 August 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Parden the spelling, but this is from my raw files... (txt files)

 
 
================================
Machineguns
================================
20mm Gatling			  = 20mm (TRO 3039) skorpion tank entry
M100					  = 12.7mm (leithal hearitage) -Phawk
Johnston minigun		  = 20mm (temptation by war) Ranger VV1 -discribed as caseless (ch 14)
Scattergun				= 20mm (temptation by war) DI Schmitt
22mm Gatling			  = 22mm (TRO 3075) JES 1 entry
================================
Class 2 Autocannons
================================
Whirlwind-L			   = 32mm (Binding force) BlackJack BJ-1
Whirlwind-L			   = 30mm (Threads of ambition) Blackjack BJ-1
SarLon					= 30mm (TRO 3026) Warrior VTOL
Thor RAC-2				= 40mm (TRO 3058) Warrior VTOL
Mydron Model D-rf (Ultra) = 20mm (Imminent Crisis) Jagermech III  
Mydron Model D			= 30mm (Threads of ambition) Jagermech
Defiance Shredder LBX	 = 20mm (Fortress republic) -Catapult
================================
Class 5 Autocannons
================================
GM Nova 5  Ultra	  = 50mm (Binding force) -cataphract
GM Nova 5  Ultra	  = 40mm (Illusions of victory) -Cataphract
GM Whirlwind		  = 120mm (Thunder ridge & Wolves on the border) -Marauder
GM Whirlwind		  = 50mm (killing field) -Marauder
Armstrong J11		 = 80mm or 90mm (Thunder ridge) -Shawdow Hawk
Imperator-A		   = 80mm (Price of Glory) -Riflemen
Whirlwind			 = 60mm (Price of glory) -Wolverine
Whirlwind			 = 90mm (Wolves on the border) -Wolverine
Imperator Ultra AC-5  = 80mm (Storms of fate) -Vulcan & Daikyu
Armstrong AC-5		= 50mm (Double blind) -Clint
Armstrong AC-5		= 105mm (TRO 3075) -Merkava Hvy Tank
Pontiac Light		 = 40mm (Illusions of victory) -Striker mech
Snake killer LAC5	 = 60mm (Battlecorps) -Shadowhawk-9D
Mydron Model RC RAC5  = 50mm (A call to arms & fortress republic) -Legionnaire & Rifleman
Mydron Tornado  RAC5  = 50mm (By Temptations and By War) -DI Schmitt
Defiance type J AC-5  = 75mm (Heir to the dragon) -Zeus 6S
================================
Class 10 Autocannons
================================
Luxor-D				= 80mm (Price of glory, Ghost of winter) -Centuien
Mydron Excel UAC	   = 80mm (Patriots and tyrents) -Enforcer
Mydron Excel LBX	   = 80mm (Patriots and tyrents) -Dragon Fire
Mydron Excel LBX	   = 80mm (Illusions of victory)  -Cataphract
Defiance Disintegrator?= 100mm (end game) -Banshee
Mydron Model B		 = 80mm (Flash point) -Bushwacker
Federated AC-10		= 80mm (Flash point) -Enforcer
Imperator Code Red	 = 100mm (Flashpoint) -Challenger MBT
KaliYama			   = 80mm (Illusions of victory) -Orion
Imperator Code Red	 = 80mm (Illusions of victory) -Emperor
Imperator-B			= 80mm (Warrior en Guard) Urbanmech (implyed to be similer in caliber as the Riflemen)
================================
Class 20 Autocannons
================================
Death Giver				= 100mm (Heir to the dragon) -Atlas
Pontiac 100				= 100mm (Heir to the dragon) -Victor
Armstrong				  = 120mm (binding force) -Von Luckner MBT
Chemjet					= 185mm (TRO 3026) -Demolisher I tank
Crusher SH				 = 150mm (TRO 3026) -Hetzer Assault gun (or 120mm Threads of ambition)
Defiance Thunder Ultra	 = 120mm (Patriots and Tyrants) -Blitzkrig
Defiance Disintegrator LBX = 120mm (Patriots and Tyrants) -Barghest -Illusions of victory & The Dying time as well
Kali Yama Big Bore		 = 120mm (Threads of ambition) -Thunder
Tomodzuru				  = 180mm (Era Report 3052) -Hunchback
Luxuor Devastator		  = 120mm (Storms of fate) -Typhoon UAV
Death Giver				= 120mm (Storms of Fate) -King Crab

================================
Unknown type
================================
Jagermech "500mm" AC (Double blind) -most likely a typo
Mackie 5S AC-5 = 110mm (Birth of a King)
Jagermech 7F RAC-5 = 80mm
Templar omni, Grayson config AC-5 = 40mm (Imminent Crisis)
Blackjack omni LBX-10 = 80mm

Clan
Type 9 UAC 10 = 75mm
Type 10 UAC 20 = 120mm
Type 20 UAC 20 = 200mm
Type 25 UAC 2 = 50mm
Type 31 UAC 5 = 40mm
Type Kov LBX-10 = 75 or 150mm (same book two diffrent vehicles)
Type Covr-X 40mm

Wolves on the border LRMs = 75mm catapult ch 19
Gauss rifle = 10cm -starlord ch 2
infantry HMG "spanner" 15mm (not sure where this one is from)
Shrapnel mentions HE shells, a gray death book also mentions HE rounds...
blood legacy, unknown vtol, door mounted rotary 12.7mm MG
The Dying time, jeep mg = 13mm 43 gram -recount of thunder rift (1500 RPM)
temptation by war, ryoken II MGs = 20mm (likely AC-2s, as I do not think it has MGs)
patriots stand, generic gun trucks, 20mm "Gatling" MGs
flight of the falcon, mining mech mod, twin 50 cal MGs
Their are a few more but this is most of what I found, as one can see their is a few contradictions.

Strum Wealh, on 27 July 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

dal10, on 26 July 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

actually all acs have versions that fire single rounds. it really depends on the manufacturers, ac/20s were the only ones i could think of off the top of my head though. just for disparity, riflemans were depicted and giant machine guns. while the shadow hawk fired 3 round bursts. i think the marauder fired single rounds, but don't quote me on that one. (marauder has ac/5)

Well, there are BT rules also support the notion of ACs as burst-fire weapons - in fact, there are specific gameplay rules (on page 100 of Tactical Operations) for walking the fire from a single burst across multiple targets.

Quote

Multiple Targets: Rather than firing at a single target, any type of autocannon can be “walked” across two targets close to one another. An LB-X autocannon firing a cluster shot and Ultra and Rotary autocannons firing at multiple targets are a special case.

No matter what type of autocannon is being used, both targets must be in adjacent hexes and within range of the weapon. Determine the to-hit number for both targets and make separate to-hit rolls against each target, using the higher (more difficult) of the to-hit numbers and adding a +1 modifier for firing at multiple targets with a single shot. Note that this is not the secondary target modifier; that modifier does not apply to this type of attack unless multiple targets also are being attacked in the same phase. If the to-hit roll succeeds, the target is struck by a single hit that inflicts damage equal to half the normal damage done by the weapon (rounded down).

The more basic rules found in Total Warfare can be seen as simply assuming that all of the shells in a burst land in the same general area.
For example, if each of the shells in a three-shell burst hits the thigh, lower leg (calf/shin), and middle of the foot, the shot "hit the leg". Likewise, having each of the shells in a four-shell burst hit the upper arm, elbow joint, lower arm, and hand is considered to have the entire burst "hit the arm".

Also, Era Report 3052 speaks to the AC classification system on page 89.

Quote

An engineer or armchair general might hold forth that the Crusher SH Cannon Autocannon (the only useful part of a Hetzer wheeled assault gun) is a completely different sort of weapon than 185mm ChemJet Guns of the fearsome Demolisher tank, because the former is a 150mm autocannon designed to fire a cassette of 10 shells while the latter is a 185mm weapon that fires a four-round cassette.

However, not everyone can afford the luxury of such nitpicking, and so militaries long ago adopted a scheme of rough classes to judge weapon systems. In the case of the aforementioned autocannons, military personnel and casual observers would consider both weapons to be “class 20” autocannons as they both fire 200 kilograms of ammunition in a 10-second period at an effective range of just under 300 meters. Any autocannon that falls into that range of performance is a class-20 autocannon, whether they fire a single 300mm, 200-kilogram shell or scores of 50mm shells.

• The AC/20 used on the Hetzer Combat Vehicle (a Ceres Arms Crusher Super Heavy Cannon) fires a burst of ten 150mm shells.
  
• The AC/20s used on the Demolisher Combat Vehicle (twin ChemJet Guns) each fire a burst of four 185mm shells.
  
• The AC/20 mounted on the Mechbuster AreoSpace Fighter (a Zeus 75) fires a four-round burst of unstated caliber.
  
• Decision at Thunder Rift states (toward the beginning of chapter 28) that the AC/5 on the SHD-2H Shadow Hawk (an Armstrong J11) is a 90mm weapon.
  
• Decision at Thunder Rift also states (around the middle of chapter 9) that the AC/5 on the MAD-3R Marauder (a GM Whirlwind) is a 120mm weapon that fires in three-round bursts.
  
• Technical Readout: 3025 states that the AC/10 on the ENF-4R Enforcer (a "Federated Autocannon/10") uses "big, ten-round clips that are easily slipped into and out of the 'Mech's back" (with the implication that each of the 10 shots in one ton is composed of 10 individual shells (that is, 10 shells/clip * 10 clips/ton), for a total of 100 shells per ton).

There is much evidence that indicates that ACs that fire multi-shell bursts are, within the BattleTech universe, by far the norm rather than the exception.

Strum Wealh, on 29 July 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

To add to the list from my previous post: the AC/20 on the VTR-9B Victor (a "Pontiac 100") is a 100mm weapon that fires in 100-shell bursts.

"The Victor grounded a scant ten meters behind the Ostroc. Theodore fired the Pontiac, then closed without waiting to see the results. Fragments pattered against the Victor as 100mm shells shattered the weak back armor of the Lyran 'Mech. Armor vanished, exposing the machine's internal superstructure. It, too, cratered and disappeared under the explosive fury of the shells. The Ostroc's chestplate and right arm leaped into the air as the 'Mech's rocket storage ignited in a violent chain of explosions. The Steiner machine toppled, a disjointed puppet bereft of guidance."
(Heir to the Dragon, ch. 32; source)

"Ardan ran a hurried check on his Victor's main armament. The right arm Pontiac 100 autocannon had the best chance of scoring a crippling hit on the Thunderbolt, but he was afraid that his swim in the mud might have fouled its feed mechanism. The autocannon was a devastating weapon. It fired high-speed, rapid-fire streams of explosive, armor-piercing shells from cassettes or carousels fed into the gun one at a time by a complex and occasionally balky autoloader mechanism. Each cassette held 100 shells, and by a widespread but commonly accepted looseness of terminology, each cassette was itself considered to be one round. One cassette round was already loaded. Nineteen more were stored in the autoloader chamber high up in his Victor's right torso. He would have to use that single round carefully, because if the loader jammed, he would not get another chance."
(Sword and Dagger, ch. 13; source)

The other types of autocannons (LB-X, Ultra, Rotary, Light, Hyper-Velocity, etc) still fit into the same four "families" (e.g. a UAC5 is still within the "AC/5 family", a LB 10-X is still within the "AC/10 family", the RAC/2 and LAC/2 are still within the "AC/2 family", and so on), and would generally be closer to their "family-mates" in terms of calibers than to those of other "AC families".

At least for now, PGI has apparently elected to simplify the ACs to a single-shell-per-salvo exemplar of each AC family.

Though, I think that it would be interesting - and add more depth to the game - if one could select the AC brand that a given AC class represented on any given 'Mech, and have that selection actually affect how the weapon performs (e.g. using a Chemjet AC/20 would have the weapon actually fire a 4-round burst in-game, while using a Crusher SH Cannon would have the weapon actually fire a 10-round burst in-game, and so on).

On that point, the OP seems (IMO) to have more-or-less the right general idea, even though the OP's specifics seem (IMO) to be a bit off.