50 replies to this topic

[Shadey99]

I kill lights just fine in a dual gauss jagermech which should be just about the worst thing to ever hunt lights in. The key is knowing when to shot and where they will be when the shot lands, not where they are now. And to those talking lasers against lights, laser damage spreads so your 'perfect shot' hits one area for a bit of damage but the mech is moving and so the damage splatters around. This is why the PPC is king as it has instant damage on hit for the full amount. The gauss does this as well, but for alot more weight and space used and even 6 tons of ammo is a bit light for a pair of them over a 12v12 match.

[xenoglyph]

Shadey99, on 26 August 2013 - 03:21 AM, said:

I kill lights just fine in a dual gauss jagermech which should be just about the worst thing to ever hunt lights in. The key is knowing when to shot and where they will be when the shot lands, not where they are now. And to those talking lasers against lights, laser damage spreads so your 'perfect shot' hits one area for a bit of damage but the mech is moving and so the damage splatters around. This is why the PPC is king as it has instant damage on hit for the full amount. The gauss does this as well, but for alot more weight and space used and even 6 tons of ammo is a bit light for a pair of them over a 12v12 match.

The problem isn't lights, it's Spiders. And actually, I have probably the best luck against spiders with heavy ballistics. They're a pain in the ***, but I've one shotted or legged probably a half dozen of them with dual Gauss.

[Shadey99]

xenoglyph, on 26 August 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

The problem isn't lights, it's Spiders. And actually, I have probably the best luck against spiders with heavy ballistics. They're a pain in the ***, but I've one shotted or legged probably a half dozen of them with dual Gauss.

I have no more issues with Spider any more than any other lights, though Spider agility under a good pilot can make getting a clean shot hard. I also play Spiders myself and on the receiving end of the fire I know how to limit my exposure to good shots.

It's easy to hit with lasers, but damage is going to be low unless it's standing perfectly still. Add in the universal HSR issues and all lights become hard to hit. Spiders are as small as commandos (and so hard to hit) with jump jets to make them more agile. However there is no extra issue with spiders.

[DegeneratePervert]

Shadey99, on 26 August 2013 - 03:21 AM, said:

I kill lights just fine in a dual gauss jagermech which should be just about the worst thing to ever hunt lights in. The key is knowing when to shot and where they will be when the shot lands, not where they are now. And to those talking lasers against lights, laser damage spreads so your 'perfect shot' hits one area for a bit of damage but the mech is moving and so the damage splatters around. This is why the PPC is king as it has instant damage on hit for the full amount. The gauss does this as well, but for alot more weight and space used and even 6 tons of ammo is a bit light for a pair of them over a 12v12 match.

Actually, in my dual gauss K2, I have no issues blowing lights apart. Which is odd, considering that I can't kill one to save my life (literally) with lasers on something heavier. My K2 has 4x Small Lasers and 2x Gauss, and it is easier to kill various light mechs with the gauss than it is the lasers. 4 small lasers should be quite efficient at killing lights, or at least ripping off their various limbs, but it is not at the moment. I look forward to hit registration being fixed, so that all these bad spider pilots can go back to their 3Ls or whatever... in the meantime, they get gauss'd.

[Devilsfury]

For the love of God! Everyone who has played this game more than a day knows that spiders are bugged. ANyone that says different is trolling and wants to keep their super mech. I made a post some time ago to where I tested the Spider myself with NO basics with the typical machine gun, med pulse laser build. One game I had 500 damage, 2 kills, 7 assists, all the while running in and out of the enemy team taking minimum damage. You CAN hit the Spider but even the 50 pinpoint Alpha strikes do very minimum damage. Now this dont happen 100% of the time but the vast majority, like 75%. And like one of the guys said earlier, how is it that most people can hit Jenners and Commandos regularly but when you do the same to spiders, you do like 10% damage.

[Shadey99]

DegeneratePervert, on 26 August 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

Which is odd, considering that I can't kill one to save my life (literally) with lasers on something heavier. My K2 has 4x Small Lasers and 2x Gauss, and it is easier to kill various light mechs with the gauss than it is the lasers. 4 small lasers should be quite efficient at killing lights, or at least ripping off their various limbs, but it is not at the moment.

Using your example: 4 SL does about 8 damage over a short period of time, so that 8 damage may partially miss or even hit other locations than the one intended. My average with a SL is ~1.5, so roughly 25% of the average damage on a hit goes missing. Lights actually make this worse as they move very fast and so can often have someone fire, hit the arm, pass through the gap between arm and torso, hit their rear RT, hit their rear CT, hit their rear LT and then the duration is gone. You've now had 2 damage hitting 4 parts and missing totally for part of it. This is why it is easy to hit with a laser, but inflicting damage with them is limited.

On top of that a Spider (or any other light) can often have 20 or more armor on any particular location. So combine the example of damage with having a good bit of armor and it's easy to understand why the damage you do with them is low.

This btw is only mildly taking HSR into account, HSR is factored in only on hits. HSR misses actually make this worse as they exagerate the loss of damage.

[Maxx Blue]

I get wierd hit issues on all sorts of mechs, big and small. The spider is the most annoying since I find it the hardest to play 'guess where the server thinks this mech is', but I get wierd non-hits on all sorts of mechs. From my ownpersonal experience, I honestly can't say if the spider is bugged, or just gets the biggest benefit from hit-detection problems. Either way, spiders are the most survivable light right now.

[ColourfulConfetti]

I play each of every class in the game, everything from Lights to Assualts so I have experience with a good portion of every chasis. With that Said in my Atlas D-DC I fairly simple time legging a light with my dual Lbx-10 (or striking the torso if its a jenner) with one exception, the Spider is noticably more difficult to land solid shots on. It has nothing to do with my aim, I'll land some solid shots from my point of view on a spiders leg or rear torso, but it seems like its only registering 35% of the shots that should have struck.

Ironically I can pretty much instally kill that rare commando mech if I come across one if I shoot it in the back, that or if I shoot from the front and it will take about 2-4 shots to core it. The spider on the other hand can take more than twice that and that is from a mech that is roughly the same size. There really is something wrong with the spider's hitboxes, I can't understand why people would deny it, this probelm isn't just with using assualts by the way, I remember using my Jenner F with small pulse lasers, and squaring off against a spider, I landed all my small pusle lasers shots dierectly on his left leg and it only registered about 5-10% of the damage, no joke.

Edited by PalmaRoma, 26 August 2013 - 07:20 AM.

[DegeneratePervert]

PalmaRoma, on 26 August 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

I play each of every class in the game, everything from Lights to Assualts so I have experience with a good portion of every chasis. With that Said in my Atlas D-DC I fairly simple time legging a light with my dual Lbx-10 (or striking the torso if its a jenner) with one exception, the Spider is noticably more difficult to land solid shots on. It has nothing to do with my aim, I'll land some solid shots from my point of view on a spiders leg or rear torso, but it seems like its only registering 35% of the shots that should have struck.

Ironically I can pretty much instally kill that rare commando mech if I come across one if I shoot it in the back, that or if I shoot from the front and it will take about 2-4 shots to core it. The spider on the other hand can take more than twice that and that is from a mech that is roughly the same size. There really is something wrong with the spider's hitboxes, I can't understand why people would deny it, this probelm isn't just with using assualts by the way, I remember using my Jenner F with small pulse lasers, and squaring off against a spider, I landed all my small pusle lasers shots dierectly on his left leg and it only registered about 5-10% of the damage, no joke.

Lol, yep. My dual LB10X+4MG Jager DD eats lights like a fat guy through nutella. Shadey99 makes an excellent analysis of why lasers aren't killing lights as they should right now... kinda funny that post patch, the LB10X isn't as good for killing spiders because the spread got tightened up, so the "random" shots don't strike all over the place where the HSR bug won't save them.

[Shadey99]

Devilsfury, on 26 August 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

For the love of God! Everyone who has played this game more than a day knows that spiders are bugged. ANyone that says different is trolling and wants to keep their super mech. I made a post some time ago to where I tested the Spider myself with NO basics with the typical machine gun, med pulse laser build.

Did you also test other lights? A good player can get high scores in a light, that is completely intended. A Spider has half the firepower of the typical Cicada, but also has roughly half the volume. It is also skinny with wide spread arms making front on and rear on shots harder if they are not perfectly straight. Basically it has the optimal body shape to be hard to hit combined the the optimal size to be a hard target. That said I've found in short to mid range PPCs are a bad choice to hit them with, Gauss are slightly better, lasers are so so (as I describe above), and the other ballistics are hit or miss (usually the heavier and slower the harder it is).

PalmaRoma, on 26 August 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

With that Said in my Atlas D-DC I fairly simple time legging a light with my dual Lbx-10 (or striking the torso if its a jenner) with one exception, the Spider is noticably more difficult to land solid shots on. It has nothing to do with my aim, I'll land some solid shots from my point of view on a spiders leg or rear torso, but it seems like its only registering 35% of the shots that should have struck.

Ironically I can pretty much instally kill that rare commando mech if I come across one if I shoot it in the back, that or if I shoot from the front and it will take about 2-4 shots to core it. The spider on the other hand can take more than twice that and that is from a mech that is roughly the same size.

They are roughly the same size, but not the same shape. If you compare the two, the Commando is compact and wider with fatter arms and legs. It is a great target to hit with an LB-X spread. In comparison the Spider has skinny legs, skinny arms, and a narrow torso with rather wide spaces between legs and between arms and torso. It's a fairly bad target with an LB-X spread. It also mounts somewhat more armor (178 max on a Commando, 210 max on a Spider) making it naturally live longer.

My own game experience suggests It is fairly easy to target center of mass on a Spider or Commando face on or rear on. The Commando though is easier to leg and arm even with a bad shot. The Jenner is easier to hit face on or rear on, but a good side shot will usually hit center of mass as well (Which may be a 'arm'). Ravens having big legs are easy to hit either center of mass or leg, however spread weapons like SRMs or LB-X are bad choices to hit said legs as they are thin and a minimum of shot will hit.

That said I have HSR issues no more than 10-15% of the time in an average game. I find the odd person to have much bigger hit detection issues than most others, rather than a certain mech that has hit detection issues. I've seen certain people who can take 6 PPCs, 2 AC20s, and more than 54 SRMs to center of mass in a mech like a Centurion without dying (208 total damage, more than both torsos and the CT if it was all on the front). That's no worse than the 'typical' Spider complaint and the Spider at least is a small, fast, hard to hit target. There is much less excuse for the Centurion 90m away standing still. That is just an example, but I don't see any Spiders that are any more abnormal than that example.

Edited by Shadey99, 26 August 2013 - 11:50 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Hit boxes seem fine on my Spider. I have died in every match and have less than 100 damage in each. Could be cause I took the craptastic Spider-K (4 MGs)! Sara is more OP than the Spider.

[Mogney]

If there is one thing a light pilot does not fear at all, its a lone LRM catapult. Seriously if you are playing an LRM C1 and a Spider approaches you, your best option is just to start hitting the alpha strike button until you overheat and explode, thus robbing the spider of his easy kill.

[LordDante]

Devilsfury, on 26 August 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

For the love of God! Everyone who has played this game more than a day knows that spiders are bugged. ANyone that says different is trolling and wants to keep their super mech. I made a post some time ago to where I tested the Spider myself with NO basics with the typical machine gun, med pulse laser build. One game I had 500 damage, 2 kills, 7 assists, all the while running in and out of the enemy team taking minimum damage. You CAN hit the Spider but even the 50 pinpoint Alpha strikes do very minimum damage. Now this dont happen 100% of the time but the vast majority, like 75%. And like one of the guys said earlier, how is it that most people can hit Jenners and Commandos regularly but when you do the same to spiders, you do like 10% damage.

can i play on ur team PLZ ... because i wanna be that good too

[Sir Ratburger]

Modo44, on 25 August 2013 - 11:54 PM, said:

That's when you report a bug. This thread is about the guy who wants his LRM boat to be good vs lights. Not gonna happen.

Hey I resent that accusation, after all I was in a heavy with a lot more armour than the little guy and as I said before I hit it 'every time' even if they are torso mounted lasers and as I said again I mostly hit it in the centre torso <--- because I try wait for an oppertune moment to strike, thats how you hit lights - also i was near a cliff so he had could not flank me and had to use jump jets to try move around and not get stuck which seriously hindered his movement.

The spider did not take the damage it should, I have played this game for a while now and I know when something is up - I dont whine and cry wolf every moment I get my butt handed to me... I take it like a man and move on, but this didnt feel right.

Edited by Sir Ratburger, 27 August 2013 - 02:50 AM.

[Modo44]

Yet another "hit detection is bad" thread is just you venting. If you see a bug, post a bug report -- with all details -- to actually help improve the game.

[Sir Ratburger]

I thought that's what the forums where for, if it is seen by enough people and commented on then the admins pass it on to the team. If people are just venting then it gets ignored or they are put in thier place and are proved wrong.

[ColourfulConfetti]

Shadey99, on 26 August 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

They are roughly the same size, but not the same shape. If you compare the two, the Commando is compact and wider with fatter arms and legs. It is a great target to hit with an LB-X spread. In comparison the Spider has skinny legs, skinny arms, and a narrow torso with rather wide spaces between legs and between arms and torso. It's a fairly bad target with an LB-X spread. It also mounts somewhat more armor (178 max on a Commando, 210 max on a Spider) making it naturally live longer.

My own game experience suggests It is fairly easy to target center of mass on a Spider or Commando face on or rear on. The Commando though is easier to leg and arm even with a bad shot. The Jenner is easier to hit face on or rear on, but a good side shot will usually hit center of mass as well (Which may be a 'arm'). Ravens having big legs are easy to hit either center of mass or leg, however spread weapons like SRMs or LB-X are bad choices to hit said legs as they are thin and a minimum of shot will hit.

That said I have HSR issues no more than 10-15% of the time in an average game. I find the odd person to have much bigger hit detection issues than most others, rather than a certain mech that has hit detection issues. I've seen certain people who can take 6 PPCs, 2 AC20s, and more than 54 SRMs to center of mass in a mech like a Centurion without dying (208 total damage, more than both torsos and the CT if it was all on the front). That's no worse than the 'typical' Spider complaint and the Spider at least is a small, fast, hard to hit target. There is much less excuse for the Centurion 90m away standing still. That is just an example, but I don't see any Spiders that are any more abnormal than that example.

Well that still doesn't explain why its so hard to strike a spiders torso, it should be a bit easier to hit a spider's torso, consdiering its a bit more of a target than a commadno's torso. I recall hitting solid hits agaisnt both the rear torso and front torso of a spider many times and only doing about 35% of the damage that I should have inflicted, I can somewhat undertsand the legs taking mor punishment than it should but the torso should be taking a bit more damage than that, from my view, I'm landing a solid hit each time. And again in my jenner, I also sometimes get the same issue, I recall hitting all my pulse lasers and keeping them locked on the spider's leg for the full duration of my lasers and it only registered a measly 5% of the damage. Keep in mind he was runnign away and his legs were not moving all over the place. It doesn't happen all the time, but there are times where spiders become increibly more difficult to land shots on than they should even though from the players view they really are hitting all those shots.

Edited by PalmaRoma, 27 August 2013 - 06:43 AM.

[Szegedin]

Sir Ratburger, on 27 August 2013 - 02:46 AM, said:

Hey I resent that accusation, after all I was in a heavy with a lot more armour than the little guy and as I said before I hit it 'every time' even if they are torso mounted lasers and as I said again I mostly hit it in the centre torso <--- because I try wait for an oppertune moment to strike, thats how you hit lights - also i was near a cliff so he had could not flank me and had to use jump jets to try move around and not get stuck which seriously hindered his movement.

The spider did not take the damage it should, I have played this game for a while now and I know when something is up - I dont whine and cry wolf every moment I get my butt handed to me... I take it like a man and move on, but this didnt feel right.

Well, don't mean to question your experience Ratburger, but i find it hard to believe you could focus your full beam duration on that enemy spider when the thing can move faster than the Catapult can torso twist....The only time I've taken out lights at close range with a Catapult was the few matches I faffed about with an AC/40 K2 cheese build - with that I took out a Jenner and a Spider that had just started the circle of death with some Autocannon deflection shots.

But If a ran into a light in a Catapult armed with lasers...I don't know man - I would say game over...even if Spiders were taking hits properly.

That said I'm curious about the community's view of Jenner hitboxes - seems to be a consensus that Jenners take damage as well as any other Mech provided you can hit them....

But every time I've finished a match in a 7F as the last or next to last player on my team and managed to prevail over the remnants of the enemy team - most recently against a disturbingly healthy Atlas in Frozen City - I get accused of winning only due to the Jenner's screwy hitboxes.

Don't know if that's just QQ or what.

Edited by Szegedin, 27 August 2013 - 07:39 AM.

[Clit Beastwood]

As a spider pilot since day one I can say, most (veteran!) spider (or all light, really) pilots are a better shot than most other pilots. Why? Because we have to hold lasers on-target at 150kph. Sure, you're able to rake your lasers across my mech - the fact you can't keep it centered on my CT has nothing to do with hitboxes. I don't mind standing in front of a stalker with lots of ML's, simply because most of them can't shoot. Lasers aren't a one click kill, and they're slow to adapt. I started the game with a 5v, then a 5d, then a 4LL stalker. I couldn't kill anything with the 4ll stalker until after I elited the 5d... then, I found I could hold all 4 LL on the CT while moving laterall. These days, I just step back and forth, taking maybe 10% of the total damage output. I also whip my torso back and forth when taking fire, so it's spread out across the entire torso. My legs are still glass and if you can aim, you can leg me. If you leg me I am probably dead. I drive a spider for the agility alone - with 3 energy hardpoints, 2 of them in the same easy to remove arm, we have to be fast and agile. In the video I'm linking, I *kept moving*, which seems to be a problem for most people piloting "chunkies". I can run towards you faster than your weapons can converge. I can go *under* your fire. I often pair with friendly jagers since they shoot over my head - I can run in front of them without taking FF. I've run a spider since before the current wah fest, and I'll run it after. I don't care - it's fun, live or die - that's whats important to me... having fun.

http://www.twitch.tv...stetz/c/2820609
Notice in the video that, even though I'm like 10m in front of the stalker, he can't keep his lasers in one spot. It's not just my spider, a friendly jenner had 800 damage - he was legged, so he was bait and I came up to slaughter anyone that went after him. If those hadn't been assaults at the end, I probably wouldn't have done as well as I did. If they'd been heavies, they might have been able to take me down. Also of note - the highlander at the end was *clearly* missing almost every shot. If the stalker had had erppc's, well, I wouldn't have just stood there.

Edited by Fierostetz, 27 August 2013 - 09:10 AM.

[ColourfulConfetti]

Fierostetz, on 27 August 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

As a spider pilot since day one I can say, most (veteran!) spider (or all light, really) pilots are a better shot than most other pilots. Why? Because we have to hold lasers on-target at 150kph. Sure, you're able to rake your lasers across my mech - the fact you can't keep it centered on my CT has nothing to do with hitboxes. I don't mind standing in front of a stalker with lots of ML's, simply because most of them can't shoot. Lasers aren't a one click kill, and they're slow to adapt. I started the game with a 5v, then a 5d, then a 4LL stalker. I couldn't kill anything with the 4ll stalker until after I elited the 5d... then, I found I could hold all 4 LL on the CT while moving laterall. These days, I just step back and forth, taking maybe 10% of the total damage output. I also whip my torso back and forth when taking fire, so it's spread out across the entire torso. My legs are still glass and if you can aim, you can leg me. If you leg me I am probably dead. I drive a spider for the agility alone - with 3 energy hardpoints, 2 of them in the same easy to remove arm, we have to be fast and agile. In the video I'm linking, I *kept moving*, which seems to be a problem for most people piloting "chunkies". I can run towards you faster than your weapons can converge. I can go *under* your fire. I often pair with friendly jagers since they shoot over my head - I can run in front of them without taking FF. I've run a spider since before the current wah fest, and I'll run it after. I don't care - it's fun, live or die - that's whats important to me... having fun.

http://www.twitch.tv...stetz/c/2820609
Notice in the video that, even though I'm like 10m in front of the stalker, he can't keep his lasers in one spot. It's not just my spider, a friendly jenner had 800 damage - he was legged, so he was bait and I came up to slaughter anyone that went after him. If those hadn't been assaults at the end, I probably wouldn't have done as well as I did. If they'd been heavies, they might have been able to take me down. Also of note - the highlander at the end was *clearly* missing almost every shot. If the stalker had had erppc's, well, I wouldn't have just stood there.

I don't know why your acting like lights mech exclusive players are leagues better than assualt mech exclusive players. I personally have experience with all classes and I wouldn't fit the bill for how you describe a typical assualt mech player, I don't think anybody is far more skilled for pilloting a light exclusively, same can be said for assualt, your not leagues better for driving assualts exclusively or most of the time. I can say by piloting each class it has made me much better overall with each class, you learn important factors with each class, which helps round you into a better player. Each class requires you play with a certain playstle and eahc class require a cetain skill. I feel each class needs getting used to to do well in it.

I'm not about to be braggart but I do think I do fairly well with each classs. With my jenner F I can consitantly get at least 300 damage and 2 kills at the very least, on my better days it can be more than double that. I get similairly impressive stats with my Atlas D-DC, average of 500 damage 2-3 kills. On better days it can climb up to 750 damage with 4 kills. I can operate well in both of these spectrums, so I'm not a class exclusive player. I also have alot of success in my cataprhact 3D, getting a simialir average damage and kill count as the D-DC. So I feel I have some merit to say the following.

I don't have a problem taking out lights in assualts really, the lb10-x is a good anti light weapon and I can properly lead my shots so I can either leg them or score some nasty rear torso damage . The only mech that seems to take far more abuse than it should is the spider, I fire my LBx 10's straight into their backs and do far less damage than what what it looked like to me, it does baffle me how a commado would be close to kicking the bucket after my lbx 10 salvo but a spider would take less than half the damage, a mech that is 5 tons lighter is easier to hit than a 30 ton mech, something is wrong with that. Anywho, the torso seems to be the same size to me. To be fair though, this is not with every spider, its very occasioanal that I get a spider that simply defies damage. This does happen with almost every mech class however, I've encountered wonkey hit reg with spiders while piloting lights, mediums heavies and assualts. It is not a class exclusive thing and it happens enoguh to bear mentioning I think.

Edited by PalmaRoma, 27 August 2013 - 02:04 PM.