22 replies to this topic

[Lostdragon]

In general, I find weapon charge times to be tedious and not fun. I was disappointed this is the balancing mechanic being added to Gauss Rifles according to the last ATD. I would ask you to seriously reconsider this change and think of other ways to achieve your goal.

If you are dead set on using a charge mechanic I would encourage you to take a look at how it is done in Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine. The plasma weapons in this game feature a charge mechanic that is fun and interesting. They can be fired with a single click, but if you hold down the button and charge them up they fire a more powerful projectile that explodes on impact but travels slower and is subject to drop, making aiming harder but more rewarding if you succeed. You can stop charging and fire the weapon at any time but the projectile gets stronger the longer you charge up to a max value.

I think this type of mechanic that rewards skillful use is much more fun and interesting than a binary mechanic as outlined in ATD. I think this type of mechanic would be perfect for PPCs but would work for the Gauss Rifle as well.

For example, if you applied this to PPCs clicking fires the weapon immediately but does only maybe 3 damage. If you charge the weapon up you get the full 10 damage at whatever charge time makes sense, maybe .5 to. 75 seconds. If you release before full charge you get somewhere between 3 and 10 damage proportional to how long you charged.

For the Gauss Rifle you could use a similar mechanic but I think it would also be interesting to see projectile speed of this weapon increased by charge. Projectile speed of the PPC could be impacted by charge time but I think it makes more sense with the Gauss Rifle because the faster the projectile travels the more damage it will do since it is just a big metal slug.

TLDR: Please do not introduce a charge mechanic that requires full charge before the weapon fires, allow the weapon to be fired instantly at a damage and/or projectile speed penalty but require full charge for maximum effect.

[stjobe]

Or, one could just scrap the charge mechanic altogether, and "de-sync" the PPC and Gauss by making their cool-downs and projectile speeds differ more than they currently do.

Or does that make too much sense?

[Lostdragon]

stjobe, on 26 August 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

Or, one could just scrap the charge mechanic altogether, and "de-sync" the PPC and Gauss by making their cool-downs and projectile speeds differ more than they currently do.

Or does that make too much sense?

That would be the logical way to do it but in light of recent events I am 100% sure that is not the route which will be taken. Since they have said they are adding a charge mechanic soon I imagine this is probably pretty close to being deployed so our only hope is that maybe it is not a binary charge system.

[Bhael Fire]

stjobe, on 26 August 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

Or, one could just scrap the charge mechanic altogether, and "de-sync" the PPC and Gauss by making their cool-downs and projectile speeds differ more than they currently do.

Or does that make too much sense?

That's not complicated and annoying enough. So...no.

[Mackman]

I would imagine PGI's thinking is that PPC's are supposed to be man-made lightening, and a gauss is a solid metal slug that does its damage because of how fast it goes. How much slower can either of these projectiles get?

[Lostdragon]

Mackman, on 26 August 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

I would imagine PGI's thinking is that PPC's are supposed to be man-made lightening, and a gauss is a solid metal slug that does its damage because of how fast it goes. How much slower can either of these projectiles get?

If I were going to add this for Gauss Rifles I would probably test it with a single click resulting in a projectile speed of 1100 and 5 dmg with a full charge yielding 1800 mp/s and 15 dmg. This would give the max projectile speed a buff for a full charge fire. PGI would probably be resistant to making the projectile speed closer to that of the PPC but I think it might be a good trade off if requiring a charge time.

[DegeneratePervert]

I just don't understand why they're making the GAUSS charge. Why would it need to charge up? Isn't it always charged? If it isn't, why isn't it? Isn't that why it explodes and why it has the weapon health of a vanilla wafer? Why would a weapon, which fires big ol' metal slugs at stuff, have a charge up time when my AC/20 doesn't? Why my AC/Anything doesn't? Why doesn't the PPC have a charge up time?

mentally, I can accept that the PPC might have a charge up time. It is a gun that shoots lightning bolts, really. It's the only laser that doesn't require time on target besides the initial click... why not make it charge up instead?

[DONTOR]

DegeneratePervert, on 26 August 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

I just don't understand why they're making the GAUSS charge. Why would it need to charge up? Isn't it always charged? If it isn't, why isn't it? Isn't that why it explodes and why it has the weapon health of a vanilla wafer? Why would a weapon, which fires big ol' metal slugs at stuff, have a charge up time when my AC/20 doesn't? Why my AC/Anything doesn't? Why doesn't the PPC have a charge up time?

mentally, I can accept that the PPC might have a charge up time. It is a gun that shoots lightning bolts, really. It's the only laser that doesn't require time on target besides the initial click... why not make it charge up instead?

The AC20 is a round with a shell casing containing a propellant much like modern tank rounds. The guass rifle is like a modern day Rail Gun which uses magnetic fields and an electronic current to fire. You can look up a video on youtube of rail guns firing if i remeber correctly they do need a charge.

[Bullseye69]

Just increasing the cool down time for the gauss and ppc and make it so both weapon can't be fired at the same time. But this is PGI so we get a system that make it harder to use the weapon already bought my LB10X and AC 10 to replace my Gauss. They reaaly need to fix hit detection get the UI 2.0 in and direct x 11 and the map choice you drop on voting in before the majority of the people leave and they want come back. A lot of my friend requested refund and that increased with the 3rd person problem , a lot had phoenix pack and they requested refunds back on that. Some have justed washed the hands and want be back regardless because there is no trust anymore on what coming down the pipe line from nerfs to game content. People want the game but having some choice on the map you drop on and having a third or fourth drop mode would be helpful in retaining people til cw comes out. Even a solaris death match mode 1 against 23 others would help improve moral a little.

[General Taskeen]

stjobe, on 26 August 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

Or does that make too much sense?

Yes, I am afraid that does make too much sense, there-fore complicate all the things, yeh!

[Lostdragon]

DegeneratePervert, on 26 August 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

I just don't understand why they're making the GAUSS charge. Why would it need to charge up? Isn't it always charged? If it isn't, why isn't it? Isn't that why it explodes and why it has the weapon health of a vanilla wafer? Why would a weapon, which fires big ol' metal slugs at stuff, have a charge up time when my AC/20 doesn't? Why my AC/Anything doesn't? Why doesn't the PPC have a charge up time?

mentally, I can accept that the PPC might have a charge up time. It is a gun that shoots lightning bolts, really. It's the only laser that doesn't require time on target besides the initial click... why not make it charge up instead?

ACs fire a round similar to that fired by modern tanks or any other gun you are probably familiar with. A Gauss Rifle uses magnets to propel a metal slug down the barrel, it does not use a controlled explosion to fire the round like an AC. This is why Gauss ammo does not explode, it includes no explosive components.

The idea is the electrical system used to power the magnets would take time to charge, but this could just as easily be applied to the PPC using the same premise. Considering the PPC is lighter, takes less slots, and does not use ammo I think it makes more sense from a balance perspective to add charge time to it. I would prefer there be no charge time weapons, but the PPC would be my first choice for it if there is no other option.

[Almond Brown]

stjobe, on 26 August 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

Or, one could just scrap the charge mechanic altogether, and "de-sync" the PPC and Gauss by making their cool-downs and projectile speeds differ more than they currently do.

Or does that make too much sense?

What numbers do you propose?

Can't see CD being an issue unless they are minutes apart and even you would not be an advocate of that right?

Projectile speeds could be doable but one has to be very careful not to simply create linkages between other weapon sets.

That is why it is suspected they going individual. To prevent "other " linkages from becoming the new Meta.

Edited by Almond Brown, 26 August 2013 - 10:14 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Quote

Just increasing the cool down time for the Gauss and PPC and make it so both weapon can't be fired at the same time.

And how exactly does differing Cool Downs prevent any 2 weapons from being fired at the same time again? If your going to Lemming, at least be a thinking Lemming please.

Edited by Almond Brown, 26 August 2013 - 10:19 AM.

[Cycleboy]

Charge time... look up "capacitor". Your electrical system cannot provide the instant energy output needed for these weapons. So, as your fusion plant runs, so energy is stored in capacitors (battery charge that doesn't last long but can discharge fast) until you pull the trigger... then... ZAP!!! 1.71 Gigawatts back to the future!

[stjobe]

Almond Brown, on 26 August 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

What numbers do you propose?

Can't see CD being an issue unless they are minutes apart and even you would not be an advocate of that right?

"Even me"?

Currently, both GR and PPCs have the same CD, 4 seconds, which means you can alpha them together every 4 seconds.
If I've understood the AtD correctly, they want to slow this down by using the charge mechanic, effectively adding 0.75 seconds to the GR's CD - so why not just add 0.75s to the GR's CD?

Both solutions amount to the same thing; if you want to alpha PPCs and GRs, you have to do it every 4.75 seconds instead of every 4 seconds. One is needlessly complicated, one is simple and understandable. Neither disallows firing both types of weapon at the same time, although with the needlessly complicated one you won't be taking any snap-shots with your GR.

As for projectile speeds, currently the GR is at 1,200 and the PPC at 2,000; perhaps that is enough difference. I stand corrected.

[Lostdragon]

stjobe, on 26 August 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

"Even me"?

Currently, both GR and PPCs have the same CD, 4 seconds, which means you can alpha them together every 4 seconds.
If I've understood the AtD correctly, they want to slow this down by using the charge mechanic, effectively adding 0.75 seconds to the GR's CD - so why not just add 0.75s to the GR's CD?

Both solutions amount to the same thing; if you want to alpha PPCs and GRs, you have to do it every 4.75 seconds instead of every 4 seconds. One is needlessly complicated, one is simple and understandable. Neither disallows firing both types of weapon at the same time, although with the needlessly complicated one you won't be taking any snap-shots with your GR.

As for projectile speeds, currently the GR is at 1,200 and the PPC at 2,000; perhaps that is enough difference. I stand corrected.

I think a 5 or even 5.5s cooldown for the GR would be ok. It is going to be really frustrating to charge it up then lose the shot because the target gets to cover or a teammate walks in front of you. That would be aggravating enough with a PPC but worse with the GR since you will waste ammo.

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 26 August 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

"Even me"?

Currently, both GR and PPCs have the same CD, 4 seconds, which means you can alpha them together every 4 seconds.
If I've understood the AtD correctly, they want to slow this down by using the charge mechanic, effectively adding 0.75 seconds to the GR's CD - so why not just add 0.75s to the GR's CD?

Both solutions amount to the same thing; if you want to alpha PPCs and GRs, you have to do it every 4.75 seconds instead of every 4 seconds. One is needlessly complicated, one is simple and understandable. Neither disallows firing both types of weapon at the same time, although with the needlessly complicated one you won't be taking any snap-shots with your GR.

As for projectile speeds, currently the GR is at 1,200 and the PPC at 2,000; perhaps that is enough difference. I stand corrected.

Couldn't I just push 2 mouse button to continue to fire both weapons simo with a little practice anyway?

[Lostdragon]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 August 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

Couldn't I just push 2 mouse button to continue to fire both weapons simo with a little practice anyway?

Not exactly. If GR is M1 and PPCs are M2, you would press and hold M1 for .75s, then when you are lined up and ready to fire if you want to get a simultaneous shot you release M1 and press M2 at the same time. My guess is the CD of the GR will not start until you fire so while the PPCs will be able to fire at 4s after your initial volley you will have to wait 4.75s to fire the GR again (4s cooldown + .75s charge). So if you always want to fire both together this will not only make the GR harder to use but also reduce your DPS on both weapons.

[Devils Advocate]

You can fire them all simultaneously with practice sure, but that means you're delaying your entire alpha by about a second. Wont mean anything at all to snipers but for people who like the brawl with full alpha all the time it'll basically increase the cooldown on every weapon they have. Right now the meta is still heavily alpha-oriented and PGI has chosen some questionable routes at trying to fix that, but a charge time on a Gauss rifle doesn't exactly feel broken. It screws up alphas if you choose not to coordinate your shots and that's about that. Gauss rifles will still have the best damage at every range from about 330-1000 and second-best after that but they wont be a part of your magical 700-range 35 point alpha strike unless you plan your shots out.

If you're agitated about this mechanic being added because you're worried PGI is going to start adding more mechanics in the future I can totally understand that, but if the logic here is that the best weapon in the game now requires you to focus some attention on the enemy I can't follow it.

I'm not a fan of the idea of adding even more complicated mechanics to the gun for fear of changing the entire game by encouraging PGI to screw around with every other weapon more "creatively." This specific change has been discussed on the boards for almost two years and isn't as dramatic a heel-turn on the mechanics as some users make it out to be.

Edited by Devils Advocate, 26 August 2013 - 02:23 PM.

[oldradagast]

I assume the Gauss Rifle won't explode any more if it is not charged at the time? Hahaha - who am I kidding? Right...

Any direct fire weapon that is not guided and that does have an area of effect is basically worthless if it has a meaningful charge time to firing after the trigger is pulled.

All this loony change does is make the Gauss Rifle next to worthless and hamstring numerous heavier mech chassis that depended upon the Gauss Rifle for their long range punch because they couldn't mount an Ac20 or a zillion PPC's.

Meanwhile, the flavor of the month club will just move on to something else, leaving yet another crazy "fix" in their wake... and this rate, by launch we'll be limited to no more than 1 of any weapon type on our mech unless we want ghost heat penalties, and half the weapons will have a firing delay... and even if that did happen, there would still be clearly superior builds. I guess the only balance "solution" is to have 1 mech type in the game that cannot be customized.

Edited by oldradagast, 27 August 2013 - 08:33 AM.