27 replies to this topic

[Denolven]

EDIT: I added the summarized solution below. Have fun


Hello fellow MechWarriors o/

I'm warming up with ballistic weapons, tried double AC 5 (BJ-1) and Gauß (Misery), and ballistics are not as bad as I thought, especially with the new hot maps. But as light and medium Mechs are my most favourite, I have a little problem. If I ever want to actually play a light/medium (read: want to be noticeably faster than heavies), I'm pretty much limited to AC 2 for mediums and MGs for lights, due to the bulkiness of ACs.

The AC 5 seems to be a good basic ballistic weapon, very reliable, damage application is ok, heat efficiency is good, and range covers most common cases.
The AC 2 however ... I don't even have words for that...thing. It weights frickin 6 tons for basically doing nothing but heating me up! I fail to see any use for that weapon. I tried double AC 2 with the BJ-1 and was so deeply disappointed that I never ever wanted to touch that thing again - even MGs are better because those at least don't give me a malus for doing nothing.

With stuff like Flamers around I probably shouldn't wonder. But somehow I have that hope that I just don't know how to use it properly. So can anyone out there enlighten me please? Is there ANY use case for the AC 2, except for the little shaking, which isn't worth the heat and 7+ tons?
If not, are there any infos about plans to rework it?


PS: does it even shake when I hit someone from behind?


========================================================
Tipps from the community, tested by me, it works
========================================================
The use case for the AC/2 is second line high dps support and opponent disruption/disturbance.

• use 2 of them with combined fire
  
• when using AC2, don't fire other weapons, because you will get heat problems; the dps from the AC2 is usually enough
  
• never be the front row guy
  
• do NOT be the front row guy!
  
• use terrain and big allies as cover (with some space so they can retreat if needed)
  
• only shoot at someone when he is busy with something else (that means let your bigger allies draw attention first, then provide some dps from the second row)
  
• if you get aggro, retreat for a few seconds
  
• if available, use JumpJets to strike from unexpected positions or to retreat over unpassable terrain
  
• the shake effect throws the opponents aiming off, which helps you and your allies to stay alive

Examples:
Blackjack BJ-1
Blackjack BJ-1 (expensive)
Dragon DRG-1N (expensive)
Depending on your playstyle, you might want more/less heat sinks or ammo packs.

Edited by Denolven, 27 August 2013 - 04:53 PM.

[DEMAX51]

AC2s start to become more effective when you're using 3 or more. With 3 of them, your DPS is 12, with 4 it's a DPS of 16. It only takes a few seconds to rip a mech apart with that kind of damage.

MGs are much better than people give them credit for. If you only use them once an enemy is down to internals, they'll rip that internal structure (and all of the items inside of it) apart in seconds.

Edit: Yes, they still get the shake effect when you hit them from behind.

Edited by DEMAX51, 26 August 2013 - 12:14 PM.

[DegeneratePervert]

Actually, the Blackjack, Centurion, and Hunchback all have variants that can mount a heavy ballistic. Lights, yes, are limited to MGs more or less. I'm going to link a couple of builds here that I've found to be pretty noob friendly, as long as you know the chassis and it's limitations.

BAMM! Blackjack

Yen-Lo-Wang Samurai

Hunchback Killstealer

Centruion Whack-A-Mole Variant

EDIT: Forgot to add the whackamole

Edited by DegeneratePervert, 26 August 2013 - 12:17 PM.

[Elyam]

The AC/2 is a very viable weapon in MWO. Don't underestimate the suppressive fire capability and high critical chance on wounded sections - both due to the very high rate of fire. By way of example, one of my most effective designs is a VTR-9S carrying just 2 AC/2 and 2 LLAS. It routinely is in the top slots of matches with over 800 damage.

[Jaynestown]

I have a lot of fun in my CDA-3C with one LLAS, one AC2 (2 tons ammo), and three MGUN (1 ton ammo). Every little bit helps, so being able to peg an opponent for four damage per second at a kilometer out can be great. I am absolutely willing to pay eight tons and three critical slots for that ability. Ten double heat sinks in the engine can deal with the AC2 and LLAS heat fairly well.

Keep in mind that if you have the speed you can keep a lot of enemies outside of that 1k range. So it can be a nice way to do some damage or harassment in any mech that lets you choose your engagements.

[Denolven]

So far I basically got two answers:
1. Play an assault and stack them.
2. Stay at 1km and snipe

To 1. I'd like to remember you that I'm looking for use cases for light/medium mechs. Also, every AC2 stacking I have ever seen sucked, including the dakka Jager. It simply has abysmal damage per heat, an insane weight, and spreads the damage allover the place. Yes it's fun. But fun is not enough. I don't want to be a burden for my team.

To 2. I fail to see where that is of any use. I agree that 2 damage is better than none. But sniping 2 damage for 7+ tons is nothing but a bad joke (plus my aiming sucks). An ERPPC has a similar profile (weight, slots, distance) but actually does damage when it hits and can't run out of ammo, plus ECM breaker.

I appreciate that you are trying. Unfortunately there is no enlightenment so far

Edited by Denolven, 26 August 2013 - 01:30 PM.

[Quinton]

using the AC/2 isn't about just blazing away madly at the enemy, there is also a strong consideration of when and when not to use it. I run a blackjack with 2ML's, 2 ac/2's and 4 tons of ammo. On average i do around 400-500 damage and have gotten as many as 5 kills in a match.

When running with that set up I usually hang back and let the heavy and assault mechs engage. At that point I have 2 options, I can either look for missile mechs and suppress the hell out of them, which is a huge boost to the team (40-60 missiles into an assault mech is still gonna hurt like hell), Or I can fire down into the brawl. When doing so I usually look for mechs that are wounded and try to pick apart damaged sections. ripping off that arm on the cent with the ac/20 is pretty damn helpful, of course coring someone who is ignoring me is pretty damn helpful too.

The key to being successful here is almost always not to be the first mech the other team targets. I find that people usually R target the first thing that pops up, and rarely leave that, which means every time after you pop out into the open they already know your there, even if they aren't looking right at you. In addition, standing near a heavy or assault mech that is trying to snipe is a pretty good defense strategy. I've had atlases look at me, then go after the LRM stalker next to me, which usually allows me to rip off their back armor before they realize i'm shooting at them.

Also, if your suppressing missile mechs, plan on becoming the center of attention for A LOT of missile fire. I've had whole teams turn to go after me because i kept their forcing their missile boats into cover. So always take note of the cover your next to, make sure its tall enough to stop inbound salvos, or wide enough you can get away from where the lock last held you.

Last but definitely not least, ALWAYS MAINTAIN SITUATIONAL AWARENESS! Sounds cheesy i know, but i can think of several times, I was sniping at someone, got tunnel vision, and didn't notice my whole team wandering off, until i get shot in the back, turned around and found 4 or 5 mechs grinning at my backside Usually doesn't end well. This can be used offensively too of course. the AC/2 is one of the best 'cherry picker' weapons in the game. Find that enemy assault thats running away with a red internal ct, and smoke him before he can does anything with all those big guns of his.

As for CASE, as far as I've been able to find CASE is pretty much useless in the game. It vents an ammo explosion out of your mech, but the explosion still deals damage to the part its in, and CASE can only be mounted in the torso slots. This means if you put ammo in your RT or LT, and it explodes, you wont take damage to your CT, but you are almost guaranteed to lose that side torso and the attached arm, which is usually pretty crippling. For most mechs i'd put the ammo in the legs, or in the arms that are using it. Mechs that are not the stalker or catapult can also have ammo in the head as its virtually impossible to reliably headshot any mechs except those 2.

Edited by Quinton, 26 August 2013 - 02:05 PM.

[DEMAX51]

Denolven, on 26 August 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

So far I basically got two answers:
1. Play an assault and stack them.
2. Stay at 1km and snipe

To 1. I'd like to remember you that I'm looking for use cases for light/medium mechs. Also, every AC2 stacking I have ever seen sucked, including the dakka Jager. It simply has abysmal damage per heat, an insane weight, and spreads the damage allover the place. Yes it's fun. But fun is not enough. I don't want to be a burden for my team.

To 2. I fail to see where that is of any use. I agree that 2 damage is better than none. But sniping 2 damage for 7+ tons is nothing but a bad joke (plus my aiming sucks). An ERPPC has a similar profile (weight, slots, distance) but actually does damage when it hits and can't run out of ammo, plus ECM breaker.

I appreciate that you are trying. Unfortunately there is no enlightenment so far

The four AC2 Jager or 'Phract can both be very good builds, but have been gimped slightly by the AC2 ghost-heat bug (once it's fixed, it'll be better). As support 'Mechs firing into the brawl, they can be a huge boon to a team.

For Lights and Mediums, there really isn't much use for the AC2 (you CAN stack 2-3 of them in a Hunch-4G, but there are better builds). For Lights, apart from a few Raven builds, the MG is really the only ballistic worth using. For Mediums, however, you can use just about ANY ballistic (the AC2 being, I would say, the worst option). You are most certainly not limited to AC2s for mediums; the Cent with an AC20 is a prime example.

Edit: If you're having trouble fitting larger ACs into your mediums, make sure you've upgraded to Endosteel internal structure.

Edited by DEMAX51, 26 August 2013 - 02:31 PM.

[RavensScar]

I'm primarily a medium pilot (hunchies n bjs) and to be honest, I've always found ballistic slots to be more of a burden than anything else. Fast mediums make excellent laser boats - lasers are light, meaning you can pack a big engine, you don't have to worry about endurance (ammo) and critically, if you start running hot you can run away to cool down. I just don't feel ballistics suit mediums.

On the other hand, I just started levelling Highlanders. On assaults, I can't get enough ballistics. Gauss, AC20, 2 x AC5 - they all work brilliantly. I think it's the fact they're heat neutral - a massive bonus for a slow brawler.

In short, I've found ballistics aren't really suited to lighter mechs. But if you're running an assault, don't leave home without them.

[CyclonerM]

Do not forget the effective Cat K2 with two AC2 and two PPCs.. Sniper & brawler in the same build. Yes, i would like ERPPCs, but they produce too much heat..

[Jaynestown]

Emphasis on the "some" for damage or harassment. I wasn't talking about hanging back and sniping at the enemy. I meant in a CDA, even with just a 280XL, you can be popping around and staying around a kilometer away from the main group, pegging some mechs for two damage per shot when possible. For a while I was using an ER PPC and four machine guns on the same mech. This is just a little more fun though. AC2 is just half the weight of a Gauss Rifle. To pop out and do half the damage you just need to focus fire for what, two seconds? That's not ideal, but it's manageable.

TBT-7K was also fun with 2 MLAS, 2SRM2, and 2AC2. I tried that this afternoon based on this post actually...

[xengk]

AC/2 on lights and mediums can be a great support weapon.
They can deal sufficient amount of damage if ignored by the enemy, and the constant plinging and shake will throw off the enemy's aim and maybe save your brawling teammate from eating an AC/20 round.
They also work for suppressive fire at long range, forcing enemy to take cover or herding them to your team.

I find manually clicking instead of holding down chain fire will avoid the heat penalty, probably because it is difficult to click faster than 0.52 second.

[Punk Oblivion]

I think for a medium mech, a single UAC5 (or double if you can fit it) is a great weapon for the time being with the buff they just gave it.

A single AC2 is meh, but a double AC2 with either small lasers, or missiles is a great combo. You just have to keep them out of a mech with high heat laser weapons.

If and when we get the LB5-X, that will be a weapon I think you will often see on mediums.

[Denolven]

Quinton, on 26 August 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

using the AC/2 isn't about just blazing away madly at the enemy, there is also a strong consideration of when and when not to use it. I run a blackjack with 2ML's, 2 ac/2's and 4 tons of ammo. On average i do around 400-500 damage and have gotten as many as 5 kills in a match.
(...)
Last but definitely not least, ALWAYS MAINTAIN SITUATIONAL AWARENESS!

Hm that's interesting. Although it simply means that you are an exceptionally good player. Normal people don't even get close to that amount of damage, not with AC/2. When I tried it, I was below 100 damage constantly. Every time I had to fight someone (because with 64 kph I can't pick my fights), I got nailed by high damage alphas, while doing a measly 4-8 damage myself while the opponent went back into cover.

The part about suppression fire is intriguing though. I actually used that tactic in WoT sometimes when facing a force that is too strong to fight (I shot the terrain, not the opponents - they don't know how big the grenades are and tend to stay behind cover to not get hit).
However, especially against missile boats I don't really see that much usefullness, because they will still have the lock no matter how much it is shaking. Also, taking cover from one AC/2 mech while raining missiles on someone else is pretty easy, unless the one you want to shoot has the same relative position, in wich case you could still trade his AC/2 rounds for your missile salvos, because you will hurt them more than they will hurt you.

As for ripping apart damaged mech parts, that can be done by pretty much any weapon. In fact, MLasers are probably the most efficient way to do it, because light weight and easy to correct aiming.

Anyway, you made me curious how far the disruption really can go. Maybe I just never noticed it because I'm too inexperienced. I'm looking forward to the Shadowhawk, which seems to have almost everything I want - speed, JJ, versatile weaponry. My current favourite is Trebuchet 5J with biggest engine, 4xML, TAG and 1x LRM 15, which is really great for going in and out where I want and allows me to handle almost every situation.
My situational awareness is actually the only thing that makes me remotely usefull for my team, because my aiming is waaaayy down the bottom. That's why I play lights and fast mediums, so I can utilize the little skill I have by abusing openings.

[3urningChrome]

Quinton, on 26 August 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

using the AC/2 isn't about just blazing away madly at the enemy, there is also a strong consideration of when and when not to use it. I run a blackjack with 2ML's, 2 ac/2's and 4 tons of ammo. On average i do around 400-500 damage and have gotten as many as 5 kills in a match.

When running with that set up I usually hang back and let the heavy and assault mechs engage. At that point I have 2 options, I can either look for missile mechs and suppress the hell out of them, which is a huge boost to the team (40-60 missiles into an assault mech is still gonna hurt like hell), Or I can fire down into the brawl. When doing so I usually look for mechs that are wounded and try to pick apart damaged sections. ripping off that arm on the cent with the ac/20 is pretty damn helpful, of course coring someone who is ignoring me is pretty damn helpful too.

This ^.
I play a BJ-1 with dual ac2 as well.

It's very good for a medium.
I usually get around 400 damage, maybe some kills. the point is to act as fire support.
find a target already being harassed, and add that 8DPs to it.
(try to aim at the sections already taken damage, it's a little harder with ac2, especially if they are moving)

You can also use it for suppression.
anywhere where there is a ridge, basically spray anyone who sticks their heads up. in the blackjack I can stop 2-3 assaults from cresting the hill while the rest of the team gang up on people from other places.

it's also good for 'tagging' the enemy to get an assist later! as you can do this from extreme range.

all in all, it's probably my favourite AC. (baring the 20.)



edit.- Wtf, How come I've defected to Marik. I've been Kurita since I started this... something is wrong... (or I've gone undercover and I've forgotton)

Edited by 3urningChrome, 27 August 2013 - 02:16 AM.

[New Day]

DEMAX51, on 26 August 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

AC2s start to become more effective when you're using 3 or more. With 3 of them, your DPS is 12, with 4 it's a DPS of 16. It only takes a few seconds to rip a mech apart with that kind of damage.

MGs are much better than people give them credit for. If you only use them once an enemy is down to internals, they'll rip that internal structure (and all of the items inside of it) apart in seconds.

Edit: Yes, they still get the shake effect when you hit them from behind.

That's when you're not overheating.

[xengk]

Denolven, on 27 August 2013 - 01:49 AM, said:

Hm that's interesting. Although it simply means that you are an exceptionally good player. Normal people don't even get close to that amount of damage, not with AC/2. When I tried it, I was below 100 damage constantly. Every time I had to fight someone (because with 64 kph I can't pick my fights), I got nailed by high damage alphas, while doing a measly 4-8 damage myself while the opponent went back into cover.

For a medium, 64kph is very slow. That is about as fast as the fastest Atlas.
So you will have trouble evading fast heavy like Dragon, even a XL300 Stalker can keep pace with you while burning you with superior fire power.
I would recommend investing in a bigger engine or going XL.

Quote

The part about suppression fire is intriguing though. I actually used that tactic in WoT sometimes when facing a force that is too strong to fight (I shot the terrain, not the opponents - they don't know how big the grenades are and tend to stay behind cover to not get hit).
However, especially against missile boats I don't really see that much usefullness, because they will still have the lock no matter how much it is shaking. Also, taking cover from one AC/2 mech while raining missiles on someone else is pretty easy, unless the one you want to shoot has the same relative position, in wich case you could still trade his AC/2 rounds for your missile salvos, because you will hurt them more than they will hurt you.

At long range, you work as a distraction. Switch the AC/2 to chain fire so you conserve abit of ammo. Shooting at the general location of the enemy is enough make them cautious.
The longer you keep them pin down in cover or focus on you, the longer your teammate is not getting fire at by the target.
LRMboat can hold lock for about 3.5 seconds(with target decay module) before they have to emerge to relock or rely on a teammate to provide lock. LRM also have flight time, you can always move out of sight to loose lock or get behind cover.
Simply reversing is not a good idea, always reverse at an angle from your last position. Because when LRM lost lock they will still swoop down on your last position and sweep along the ground hitting anything in the way.

Quote

As for ripping apart damaged mech parts, that can be done by pretty much any weapon. In fact, MLasers are probably the most efficient way to do it, because light weight and easy to correct aiming.

True any weapon can deal damage.
AC/2 shine at being effective up to over 1000m, have very high firing rate and low heat. The drawback being they weight 6tonnes and takes ammo to operate.
Damage wise, comparing an AC/2 to a MLaz.
MLaz deal 5 damage over 1 second and require 3 seconds to cooldown, so you wait a total of 4 seconds before able to fire again.
AC/2 deal 2 damage instantly and require 0.52 second to cooldown. In the span of 4 seconds, you can potentially fires 7 times, dealing 14 damage.
However, it is always ideal to have backup MLaz for when you ran out of ammo or as an added punch in close range.

Quote

Anyway, you made me curious how far the disruption really can go. Maybe I just never noticed it because I'm too inexperienced. I'm looking forward to the Shadowhawk, which seems to have almost everything I want - speed, JJ, versatile weaponry. My current favourite is Trebuchet 5J with biggest engine, 4xML, TAG and 1x LRM 15, which is really great for going in and out where I want and allows me to handle almost every situation.
My situational awareness is actually the only thing that makes me remotely usefull for my team, because my aiming is waaaayy down the bottom. That's why I play lights and fast mediums, so I can utilize the little skill I have by abusing openings.

To play a range harasser, you will need to learn the maps.
Identify hotspots where the fighting usually take place, and sniping spot that have access the hotspot but still have sufficient cover or escape route to retreat to.
For example; in tourmaline desert the ridge at E7 provide good cover from PPC retaliation yet have a wide shooting corridor down into F5 where enemy team likes to gather before a push, plus keeping an eye on the nearby F7 valley for enemy flanking.
G5 on the same map also is a good spot if you drop in the other side, it give you a good view of the E5 hotspot.

[Denolven]

3urningChrome, on 27 August 2013 - 02:14 AM, said:

the point is to act as fire support.
find a target already being harassed, and add that 8DPs to it.
(try to aim at the sections already taken damage, it's a little harder with ac2, especially if they are moving)

You can also use it for suppression.
anywhere where there is a ridge, basically spray anyone who sticks their heads up. in the blackjack I can stop 2-3 assaults from cresting the hill while the rest of the team gang up on people from other places.

The suppression part is probably the hardest one for me, because hitting someone who sticks out his head 1km away takes me like 20 seconds of cursor fiddling. In all that time I could be flanking somewhere.
I tried the sniper thing when I got my second mech, the Dragon 1N (first one was Spider 5V with TAG and Flamer - I have that weird talent to intuitively pick the worst thing a new game has to offer). I saw other people sniping and I knew that this is not for me. I have trouble hitting an Atlas in front of me, so I'm not going to waste my time in the back rows.

Unfortunately that probably removes half of the benefits of the AC2 for me.
But I still need 1k XP for the BJ-1, so I'll give it another try today. Maybe like this. But looking at the cooling efficiency and damage output, compared to this (how I play it currently), is really depressing. I did manage to do quite some damage with the double AC5. But even looking at the AC2 build causes me to go

Edited by Denolven, 27 August 2013 - 03:30 AM.

[3urningChrome]

Denolven, on 27 August 2013 - 03:22 AM, said:

The suppression part is probably the hardest one for me, because hitting someone who sticks out his head 1km away takes me like 20 seconds of cursor fiddling. In all that time I could be flanking somewhere.
I tried the sniper thing when I got my second mech, the Dragon 1N (first one was Spider 5V with TAG and Flamer - I have that weird talent to intuitively pick the worst thing a new game has to offer). I saw other people sniping and I knew that this is not for me. I have trouble hitting an Atlas in front of me, so I'm not going to waste my time in the back rows.

Unfortunately that probably removes half of the benefits of the AC2 for me.
But I still need 1k XP for the BJ-1, so I'll give it another try today. Maybe like this. But looking at the cooling efficiency and damage output, compared to this (how I play it currently), is really depressing. I did manage to do quite some damage with the double AC5. But even looking at the AC2 build causes me to go

Maybe it's just a matter of personal style.
I tried the Ac5's and found I was doing better with the Ac2's

(I run an Ac2 build much like you suggested, but without AMS, and the top XL engine. speed; 93 inc speed tweak)

I usually only tag an enemy from 1k away to get an assist.
Most of my firing is done far closer.
say 250-600 meters?
also done in 3-5 second bursts.
saves heat, and by then they are probably moving so a lot of your shots are going to miss.

[Denolven]

3urningChrome, on 27 August 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:

Maybe it's just a matter of personal style.

Or maybe, just maybe, it's the fact that a medium @ 64 kph is quite limited in positioning or escaping unpleasant situations . For anything that slow, the equipment game pretty much boils down to getting as much frontal armor as possible, and as much firepower as possible. The AC5 doesn't make it a good mech. It makes it somewhat bearable.

But I think I'm going to keep this one ballistic mech for a change, maybe training a bit so I don't totally suck when the Shadowhawk finally comes. Can the XL235 be used somewhere else properly?
To be honest, I thought about keeping the TBT-7K, but sold it because it has no JJ and wasn't as fast as I expect mediums to be (100+), and allaround less versatile than the TBT-5J. The Blackjack however has JJ and the weapons are arm-mounted. If the engine could be used somewhere else too, I might want to give it a try. If only my aiming was better...

Edited by Denolven, 27 August 2013 - 04:36 AM.