50 replies to this topic

[Royalewithcheese]

You definitely need to bring more ammo these days. Sometimes, for whatever reason, you need to pick up some of the slack and more boolets will help you do that.

[Modo44]

Profiteer, on 26 August 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Yeah because trying to finish off the remaining 4 enemy mechs with a couple of lasers is going to work out real well

It won't, and it shouldn't. The larger ammo requirement is a limiting factor that adds depth to the game. It differentiates the good/patient shots from people who spray and pray. It also makes for an interesting choice between balanced builds and the "all cannons without backup" cheese.

[Royalewithcheese]

Modo44, on 26 August 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

"all cannons without backup" cheese.

Paradoxically, I'm really liking how this sort of thing performs in 12v12. Matches tend to be steamroll-y enough that there's a strong case to be made for front-loaded damage that starts the steamroll vs. the ability to plink with lasers at the end of the round.

[Modo44]

Yeah, I bet it can be good. What I'm saying is, you now can't have a balanced build (with backup weapons and AMS) while taking enough ammo for a long match. It becomes a real choice between one or the other.

[Theodor Kling]

I actually don´t have that many ammo problems... and that with my SRM fetish... last time I ran out of ammo with my SRM centurion was a draw, and I ran out of ammo during a duel with the last remaining enemy.

[Ozric]

I asked this very question in a Twitch stream (I've had trouble with my LRM mechs ammo since 12vs12), and l was told that PGI are indeed looking at ammo amounts across the board. I have no idea about timing though.

[Randalf Yorgen]

ricardox, on 26 August 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

By saying that you're actually proving the point. That ammunition based weapons are slightly less valuable vs energy weapons when going to more players.

Why should what was "equal builds" (one based on Energy other on Ballistic/Missile) in 8vs8 change for 12vs12?

I agree that you can adapt by simply carrying a backup ENERGY weapon but that would just be conceding the point, actually.

I also said teamwork, or did you not read that? Mediums staying close to the Missile boats for close protection is always a good idea and in a team with a commander, as long as everyone does their job this is what happens. If you are going to take a Cat A-1 or C-1 out (or the new LRM 80 Stalker build) you're not going to have much if any defensive weapons. However with mediums in close support and spotters calling the fall of shot then you will have tons of ammo for the fight based on the old 8v8 builds in a 12 man. IF you are trying to blast a path through a rock face then it's all on you.

TL:DR? AMMO is fine, learn to pick your targets and get your spotters to tell you if it's effective. The roll of LRMs is to force the enemy to keep their heads down, take a different aproach and weaken the enemy before they meet your brawlers. If you go with nothing but Gauss and A/C20 you're going to be a prime target and most likely be killed right away anyways, in higher play at least.

Imagine. Atlas takes 180 LRMs while closing, it's LT is open and it's CT and HEAD are outer red then suddenly a 6MG Jagger steps out and let the Atlas have it. Even if no more LRM'***** the Atlas it will be the Jagger that walks away (unless the Atlas has friends with it, remember TEAMWORK?)

[Tombstoner]

Ammo levels are already lower then they should be due to armor being doubled and internals being increased at some point relative to TT.

But this is not TT you say.... initial stats where take directly from TT. double armor = double ammo... it didn't happen. or its a nerf to ammo based weapons.

Over all ammo is about 25% short from where it should be.

Edited by Tombstoner, 27 August 2013 - 05:59 AM.

[Jzaltheral]

I will add this - my design philosophy for a mech is to never depend entirely on ammo based weapons unless I have no choice (Catapult A1 I am looking at you). I always carry at least a medium laser as a backup, just so I'm not that guy running around at the end of the match unable to do anything at all.

I actually played a match like that last week - last two mechs standing were both A1s, both with 0 ammo left. I laughed.

[DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa]

ricardox, on 26 August 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Was going to use this as a reply to one of the threads about it but here is my thoughts on why you need more ammunition for ballistic/missile weapons when increasing number of combatants. I'll try to be brief as possible.

If you had the same ammo load out that optimized of 8v8 match, you'd need more for 12v12 match. This is because 1) different missiles and ballistic weapons have different ammo and more importantly, 2) Ammunition does not transfer to surviving mechs when one is eliminated (since everyone uses Gauss R anyway, lol) . This is not to say that 50% more mechs require 50% more ammo. There is a diminishing percentage increase that is necessary as number of combatants increase.

Let's look at simple case of 1v1. Let's say one side just uses energy weapons and the other ammunition based (missile or ballistic) For the sake of simplicity, let's say 1 ton of ammo is what's necessary for matches of 1v1. Neither side has an advantage and equal probability of win.

Now let's give make it 2v2. It's kind of easy to see in most scenarios, energy has the advantage here over ballistic/missile mechs optimized for 1v1. For example if 1 energy mech dies and 1 ballistic mech dies (leaving the other 2 unharmed) , remaining energy mech is unaffected in the 1v1, while the ballistic mech now is short of the optimized 1ton that's needed.

And on and on (with scenarios getting much more complex) till 12v12.

The issue is balance between energy (heat limited) and ballistic/missile (ammunition limited). Going to 12v12 does not impact heat limited case quite as much as the ammunition limited. Those builds using optimum ballistic for 8v8 will find that they run short of optimum for 12v12.

Now, what should be the increase? The situation is rather complex so I'd fall back to the old "heuristics".. ie. trial and error. I'd say give 20% a try, it can always be tweaked later (probably to the hue and cry of the masses).

You know, a blanketed solution would be fore pilots to use their ammo more efficiently.

How many times do people fire off lrms at the beginning of a match or when you explain that there's no one in cover on the other team the reply back is "I have plenty of ammo."

[Lynx7725]

Hmmm... Well I've not tweaked any of my builds specifically for 12v12, my experiences so far are:

DaishoCat (Cat-A1, LRM/ SSRM): 5 tons LRM, 2 tons SSRM. Enough to last a match. Not counting early destruction, I'll always run my LRM dry (intentional design), and depending how good my team is, my SSRM will be low. I've ran bone dry in a couple of matches, have 1 salvo left in about another 3 or so -- these are mostly for games where I survived all the way to the end. Overall, feels to be correct load; I can do with a bit more of either but it's not super critical.

GunJaeger (Jager-any, AC40): 42 rounds of AC20. No ammo problem; in fact with Ghost Heat, I'm finding I'm carrying one ton too much ammo. Basically, I rarely survive long enough for ammo to be a problem. People prioritize killing GunJaegers for some reason...

Victor (AC20, 2xPPC): 24 rounds of AC20. Never a problem -- intentionally over ammo'ed. Arm rarely stays attached even though the PPC is the main damage dealer. Really should reduce for either JJ or DHS.

SplatCat (Cat-A1, 6 SRM6s): I think I'm running with 600 missiles, maybe 700 missiles. Never had a problem, even when I survived all the way to the end (which is not always the case). Yes, some teams left me alive till the end...

Centurion (LB-10X, 2 SRM6s, or LPL, 2 SRM6s): This one ammo is a bit tight. Usually not a big problem, but I have to be very careful not to waste ammo on this build.

YLW (AC20): 21 shots for the AC20. If I'm sneaky, it's enough. If I'm not, the RA gets removed early and I don't have an ammo problem -- I have a weapon problem!

Atlas DDC (3xLRM10, 1 AC20, 2 Med Lasers): Globs of LRM ammo (at least 6 tons), 3 tons or so of AC20 ammo? LRMs are usually sufficient for sandpapering, so no problem there. I have an issue where I rarely get to use my AC20+2ML, since by the time I finish shooting off my LRMs, there' usually either too little things left (if my team is good), or too much (if my team is bad). Either way, sufficient for 12v12.

So generally, my take is that if a build was previously adequately ammo'ed for 8v8, 12v12 doesn't really need to change much. One more ton per weapon group might be warranted, but not a requirement. If the build wasn't adequately ammo'ed to begin with, then it's going to hurt.