17 replies to this topic

[Bront]

I have 2 thoughts here. One on PPC balance as against itself, another as PPC balance vs other weapons.

PPC vs ERPPC Balance:
Swap the Minimum range of PPCs and ERPPCs. Currently, The only disadvantage to an ERPPC is heat (and at the moment, it feels like not enough to make a difference in may PPC reliant builds). Why not swap the min range in PPC and ERPPC? I realise it's not TT Cannon, but you're trying to balance the weapon for this game, not TT (and part of the TT Balance concern was cost, and the heat penalties were worse). If you need to, reduce the range (or increase the decay rate past range) of the PPC a little bit to make up for it.

This simple change would make a clear separation of PPCs and ERPPCs from their purprose. PPCs would be a mid to long range brawler weapon, while the ERPPC would be an extreme range sniper weapon that doesn't brawl close.

This even helps nerf the Gauss/PPC sniper builds, forcing you to chose between long or short range.

PPC general balance
Currently, the PPC is a Balistic weapon that fits in an energy slot and doesn't use ammo. Instead, make it a hybred Energy/Balistic. Have it create a short durration beam that behaves like a balistic. Keep the current projectile speed, but is instead have it form a beam that last for like .3 seconds, so it's not a 100% pinpoint damage weapon. It adds some unique flavor, doesn't kill the usefulness of the weapon, but also removes some of the pinpoint damage issues that the PPC has.

And yes, I have no clue how hard it would be to program this, so it's possible that it's just not possible.

[Pht]

This "PPC problem" is a symptom. Not the cause of the problem.

If they manage to "fix" the PPC something else will come to the fore as the reigning "does the most damage the quickest to a single section of a target."

The armor vs weapons damage system is broken, because they didn't use the combat system those numbers were balanced for.

The PPC class weapons just happen to be the "mole" that is sticking out the furthest at the moment, begging for the hammer to whack it, allowing another mole to pop up. I'd rather see them unplug the machine and stop having to whack moles.

The really ironic thing is that any given PPC "fix" will likely have unintended consequences, requiring yet another fix (with yet more unintended consequences).

Edited by Pht, 25 August 2013 - 10:41 AM.

[Bront]

I don't disagree, but my PPC Fix in general helps quite a bit towards smoothing things over, and my range fix is something completely outside the meta of every other weapon. There is no currrent weapon that is significantly superior to it's own counterpart like the ERPPC compared to the PPC.

Just trying to help

[Pht]

BTW, I'm not saying it cant' be fixed.

I just don't see the sanity of fixing symptoms and the attendant unintended consequences these fixes cause, when the underlying problem can be fixed.

It's like a low-grade fever that never breaks - you can bring the temp down... or you can actually fix the thing causing the fever.

[Pht]

Bront, on 25 August 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

I don't disagree, but my PPC Fix in general helps quite a bit towards smoothing things over, and my range fix is something completely outside the meta of every other weapon. There is no currrent weapon that is significantly superior to it's own counterpart like the ERPPC compared to the PPC.

Just trying to help

Np man. Just pointing out the overall goings on and towards the possible consequences of continuing on the "fix this individual weapon" trend.

It's like, say, releasing rabbits in Australia; as a food supply (and something to hunt, for bored rich people): http://en.wikipedia....ts_in_Australia

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

The solution is NOT to change the PPC /Nerf it into the ground. Give players alternatives that compete in the same league as the most used weapons. After all, its not used because these weapons are so OP, its because other weapons we have just ***** suck!


Chemical Lasers

Limited heat Lasers (basic lasers, small medium & large, no ER, heavy or Pulse variants)

They have ammo instead of higher heat.

Blazer Cannon

A bound together pair of Large Lasers that deals more damage. Not as efficient at two sperate Large Laser for nebulous reason, but in MWO that is balanced by requiring only a single energy hardpoint.

High Heat, High damage, essentially an IS version of a Heavy Laser. OR switch it up and make it an upfront damage laser (no burn time, higher heat).

Just for those who are TT value worshipers, call the "new" Blazer an Improved Blazer Cannon. Then PGI can feel free to mess around with its preferred weapon mechanics and values (preferably so its NOT just another Large Laser, give it a unique and interesting niche firing mechanic).

Edited by mwhighlander, 25 August 2013 - 12:31 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

PPC/ERPPC is almost fine now. Just needs a little tuning still.

[Nema Nabojiv]

ERPPC's heat is already a huge disadvantage, It doesn't need another one.

[Bront]

mwhighlander, on 25 August 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

The solution is NOT to change the PPC /Nerf it into the ground. Give players alternatives that compete in the same league as the most used weapons. After all, its not used because these weapons are so OP, its because other weapons we have just ***** suck!

My adjustment to how PPCs fire won't nerf them much (The hybred Balistic/Energy mode), though reducing the beam durations on lasers in general would make laser alternatives more functional (.75 for normal, .5 for pulse), but the change helps reduce PPC Pinpoint damage, which is why the PPC is the current weapon king for many builds (smaller tonnage, energy slot using, pinpoint damage). It also keeps it more in line with other energy weapons with how it behaves.

[Strum Wealh]

I voted "no" on the first question and "yes, but not with those specific characteristics" on the second question.

Personally, I think that the firing delay mechanic would make more sense for the whole PPC family than for the Gauss Rifles, from the standpoint of considering them to function much like the real-world electrolaser (see here and here): the weapon would first fire an ionizing laser beam to produce a "laser-induced plasma channel" in the local medium (e.g. the atmosphere) through which the ion bolt (which, like the ballistic weapons, retains the ability to deliver all of its damage as a single strike) is projected to the other end of the LIPC (which is ideally on the target).

• t = 0.00s: trigger is pulled, PPC/ER-PPC ionizing laser fires
  
• t = 0.00s to t = Ns: ionizing laser "burn time", LIPC is established
  
• t = Ns: PPC/ER-PPC ion bolt is fired and strikes wherever the ionizing beam is pointing at the point of firing
  
• t = Ns to t = 5.00s: PPC/ER-PPC recycle/cooldown period
  
• IMO, 0.50s < N < 1.00s is ideal

The electrolaser even matches the PPCs' typical description as "man-made lightning":

"A guided lightning bolt travels horizontally, then hits a car when it finds the lower resistance path to ground. The lightning is guided in a laser-induced plasma channel, then it deviates from the channel when it gets close to the target and has a lower-resistance path to ground. Though more work needs to be done, Picatinny Arsenal engineers believe the technology holds great promise." (source)

Thoughts?

[Imperius]

PPC/ER PPC are fine. Quit standing out in the open. Nuff said

[Avalios]

PPCs are close, just need 1 more heat each and they will be balanced for the role they are meant for.... sniping. Push in on a ppc boat and it will overheat fast.

[Oznog]

I don't even understand the PPC "minimum range" restriction. It makes no sense within the mech universe for no less than 4 reasons:

1. It is a consistent tenant of MechWarrior that you can CHOOSE to do unwise things as a sacrifice. This would include damaging yourself with the problems of firing a PPC at close range.

2. PPC don't MAKE spatter damage. They don't damage other mechs where it hits, either friendly or enemy. The listing says because of a "feedback" effect. That... doesn't make a lot of sense, it's a thrown ball once it leaves, and not related to the gun anymore. In fact the gun turns away or runs sideways and the PPC ball is unaffected. Heck, by 90m, there might be a building between me and the impact when it hits. So this isn't consistent- only LASERS would be capable of feedback as they're in continuous operation supporting a beam. A PPC is not, not by its game representation.

3. A gun would not be able to "engage a field limiter inhibitor" based on observed range like this, because it doesn't know where it'll hit when fired. Even at short range, things run across your field-of-view rather quickly. The gun would have no reliable way of knowing what range the ball will actually *hit* something after it leaves.

4. So yeah in cases where the crosshair was on something further off when fired, and yet you ended up hitting something close (hopefully on purpose), there's no "feedback effect" in the game.

Personally I think these are bad- well, unfun- game mechanics. ERPPC are hell to even try to brawl with, but it's *fun* to try. Adding in mechanisms that arbitrarily say "it won't work at close range because we don't like you" are just screwing with the player.

I like mechanisms like slower-traveling shot, maybe a trigger delay, maybe a must-hold-trigger to build up a shot and once it's built the heat is generated regardless and it MUST fire soon. Weapon quirks. To me, these are FUN to develop a style to exploit effectively, especially in situations where they seem inappropriate. Just saying "it won't do damage at close range" is just a hack, and it's a blatantly obvious developer interference in gameplay.

I would say it would be interesting if PPC/ERPPC did splash damage of tens of meters on anything, self, friend, or foe. But of course now we've got a problem of calculating cover from here to there. Otherwise you might go messing with people by shooting things on the outside of a cave and damaging people inside the cave.

[Oznog]

Avalios, on 25 August 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

PPCs are close, just need 1 more heat each and they will be balanced for the role they are meant for.... sniping. Push in on a ppc boat and it will overheat fast.

I use ERPPCs. I can say you already have to have EXCEPTIONALLY good strategy to do anything more than harass the enemy, and overheating is a massive problem. They do VERY little damage for their heat. I can't use PPCs because of the minimum range rules, I've got no room for other weapons and have little interest in Heavy or above. They're not as much fun to me, and if I was using it, I'd likely choose another weapon than a PPC.

I can say that head-to-head a Jager will outgun me like 5:1. 10:1. In general it's very unlikely you will be able to shoot anything to death. My strategy is to use harassing fire to bait enemies and run towards an allied Heavy or Assault mech. If they start circling the Assault I'll hand out some fire to try to make 'em stop- but again, at a Damage/Heat ratio of 0.83, you just won't win this through firepower itself even if they're just standing there.

People say "PPCs are unlimited ammo" but that's hardly the case. On hot levels, they're severely limited, you can't fire more than a few dozen rounds within the time of an actual battle. "Yeah but if the battle went on for half an hour you'd out-ammo them..." sure, but not even relevant. Never happens.

Heck, a DC'ed mech just *standing* there helpless can take like 2 min or more to kill with ERPPC.

It's true that PPC/ERPPC are "popular". But that's not so much because of effectiveness, but IMHO they're more FUN to use. Holding lasers or missile locks are just lame gameplay to me, and I can't get a build I *like* that supports ballistic weapons, not with speed and jump jets. So I've got a strange, weak build with long-range capabilities but only... ooooh, 20 firepower. No, you don't need to reduce this more.

Edited by Oznog, 25 August 2013 - 03:56 PM.

[akpavker]

Bront, on 25 August 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

I have 2 thoughts here. One on PPC balance as against itself, another as PPC balance vs other weapons.

PPC vs ERPPC Balance:
Swap the Minimum range of PPCs and ERPPCs. Currently, The only disadvantage to an ERPPC is heat (and at the moment, it feels like not enough to make a difference in may PPC reliant builds). Why not swap the min range in PPC and ERPPC? I realise it's not TT Cannon, but you're trying to balance the weapon for this game, not TT (and part of the TT Balance concern was cost, and the heat penalties were worse). If you need to, reduce the range (or increase the decay rate past range) of the PPC a little bit to make up for it.

This simple change would make a clear separation of PPCs and ERPPCs from their purprose. PPCs would be a mid to long range brawler weapon, while the ERPPC would be an extreme range sniper weapon that doesn't brawl close.

This even helps nerf the Gauss/PPC sniper builds, forcing you to chose between long or short range.

PPC general balance
Currently, the PPC is a Balistic weapon that fits in an energy slot and doesn't use ammo. Instead, make it a hybred Energy/Balistic. Have it create a short durration beam that behaves like a balistic. Keep the current projectile speed, but is instead have it form a beam that last for like .3 seconds, so it's not a 100% pinpoint damage weapon. It adds some unique flavor, doesn't kill the usefulness of the weapon, but also removes some of the pinpoint damage issues that the PPC has.

And yes, I have no clue how hard it would be to program this, so it's possible that it's just not possible.

~sniff~ some 1 shot me with a ppc~sniff cry~ and i died ~whhaaaaa~

Edited by akpavker, 25 August 2013 - 10:36 PM.

[Bront]

akpavker, on 25 August 2013 - 10:34 PM, said:

~sniff~ some 1 shot me with a ppc~sniff cry~ and i died ~whhaaaaa~

I die all the time. It happens. I do recognize the PPC has issues, just trying to help with something that adds flavor.

Fixing convergence would fix it as well, but that's not happening anytime soon.

The least you could do is offer some constructive comment. Snark just makes you look like a jerk.

[akpavker]

Bront, on 26 August 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

I die all the time. It happens. I do recognize the PPC has issues, just trying to help with something that adds flavor.

Fixing convergence would fix it as well, but that's not happening anytime soon.

The least you could do is offer some constructive comment. Snark just makes you look like a jerk.

i dont mind being called a jerk but i dislike noobs complaining about a weapon that has been nerfed in to balance quiet well so....

~sniff~ cry a bit more why dont you ~sniff~

[Bront]

akpavker, on 26 August 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

i dont mind being called a jerk but i dislike noobs complaining about a weapon that has been nerfed in to balance quiet well so....

~sniff~ cry a bit more why dont you ~sniff~

I'm hardly a noob, and the PPC balance isn't quite right. So, rather than simply call for a nerf, I suggested a change.

No crying here. Worst thing that happens is nothing. Not everyone trying to talk about balance is crying. At the moment, PPCs are superior to other energy weapons in most situations due to high pinpoint damage. They're better with the heat changes but ghost heat isn't a great solution.