26 replies to this topic

[VagGR]

in the recent AtD PGI revealed their idea on how to balance the PPC/gauss combo. i (and many others) think its a very bad idea that will do more harm than good. it doesnt matter if charge up makes sense in connon or not, it doesnt matter if some think it should be applied in PPCs. Unfortunatelly MWO as a game works in a way that twitch shooting is very important. sure some players will master that 0.75 sec delay and will continue to use PPCs/gauss, others will come up with a macro to counter it but the truth is the majority of the players will not bother learning that mechanic, they will just stop using Gauss rifles and turn to using more PPCs. the result will be more PPCs, and builds that used Gauss's without PPCs, ruined.

This is not a thread about judging PGI or raging over what we dont like, instead its about providing the devs with alternative ideas on how to balance the ppc/gauss combo. So please keep it constuctive and polite, post your ideas and if you see an idea you think is good like it. so maybe, just maybe something good comes out of this, something we like, something they like and we all end up happy in the end.

Unfortunatelly previous experience teach us that if PGI set their minds on something they will just do it no matter what we say, but we can still try.

PGI please keep an eye on this thread and an open mind.

So, here is my idea:

a)increase the Gauss cooldown to 4.5 to bring it closer to how a sniper weapon works in a game enviroment (high dmg, long range, low fire rate)

b)when a Gauss rifle is fired within 0.5 sec from a PPC increase the Gauss cooldown to 5.75 and PPC cooldown to 5.25 (thats 1.25 sec each)

these changes:
-will prevent players from spamming alphas every 4 secs. they can still alpha if they want at the cost of not being able to fire again for 5+ secs even with fastfire.
-will affect only this specific weapon combo which is the problem but it will not affect other gauss builds that souldnt pay the price
-its based on a system already in game (0.5 sec chainfire delay) that people know and understnd without causing further confusion.

Edited by VagGR, 25 August 2013 - 09:36 AM.

[El Bandito]

Best way to save Gauss Rifle is simple. Get a different Balance Director.

[MischiefSC]

How about you decrease PPC speed and increase its heat to tabletop levels, then give the Gauss a minimum range but buff its projectile speed to where PPCs were. Flip their projectile speed ratings but give Gauss a minimum range like regular PPCs.

This makes even an ERPPC + Gauss sniper (15 heat per ERPPC and the Gauss useless within a certain range) suicidal in a brawl instead of being a solid brawling build. Much like the LRM boat it's a mech with very specific strengths and weaknesses in far better balance and it goes further to resolving PPC boating.

This was never a hard fix. Why this need to somehow over-complicate to resolve issues like this I'll never understand.

Core mechanics you keep simple.

Modules and chassis tweaks can add a lot of complexity, there are a myriad of complexities without making all these invisible, counter-intuitive nerfs to stuff. Ghost heat and the proposed gauss changes are adding a sort of illogical creep to the game that is without question going to be off-putting to newer players, especially those with some BT or MW experience.

[Lysander Voidrunner]

This change is rather uncomprehensible to me. Rather than taking a straight forward approach to fixing the game, that is making both weapons mutually exlusive and on the same cooldown (if you fire one grouping then the other doesn't fire but still gets a recycle timer or something along these lines) they created yet an other convoluted mechanic that will break many other builds just to "fix" the 2PPC1Gauss build. This really is a case of wanting to go from point a to point b by taking a detour through point c, d and e.

For starters, many builds rely on the gauss as their primary long range weapon with any kind of thump. This means now, that firing at people who are in cover will take some precognition as to their intentions as you have to charge your weapon with enough time for them to momentarily reveal themselves while they take their shot, you also have to account for the flight time of the slug and you have to rely on luck.

I wasn't a big fan of the ghost heat solution but I could swallow my own bile and carry on fighting with my 3LL/Gauss highlander. It just made my really balanced build rather prone to heat. Sure, I can still work with it, just takes some pre-planning and watching the heat gauge. Even though LLs, firing at targets further than 250m means that you spread most of the damage over multiple components and even miss some of it. So the heat penalty for them is already rather tough and unfair as compared to the nerf of the PPC where all the damage is applied to one point. But I can live with it.

But now you not only make it so that the gauss will become far less useful by adding a second charge up time (which it already had, in the form of the recycle timer) which will defacto extend the recycle time to 3.75s and reduce the possible DPS from this weapon. Thereby making it inferior to the AC20. As a sidenote, am I the onlyone who sees something REALLY wrong with a Blackjack being able to mount an AC20? For crying out loud, in the fluff, an Atlas has a high chance of being knocked over after firing one, what would happen to a raven or bj or even a 2x20 Jaeger? They should at least take structural damage. But anyways, that's a tangent. As I was saying not only did you extend the recycle time, the weapon is already flimsy as thell, you added a required degree of precognition for effective use of the weapon but also, you made sure that the weapon is no longer a precision long range weapon as most people don't track with the reticle, they fire when the reticle aligns with the target, but they don't track, so now you have to a degree, track.

I highly suggest you reconsider this charge up time, PGI, I think we're all on the same boat when you said you want to discourage high alpha builds. But your boat is sailing to crazy island with this fix.

[ICEFANG13]

Its simple...

We kill the PPC



Serious, nothing wrong with the Gauss, at least nothing extremely wrong, its one of the best balanced weapons in my opinion, the PPC is one of the worst, don't go messing with something that is working really well especially with a nerf that doesn't impact sniping, and hurts new players more! PPCs need a nerf far more than Gauss does.

In fact we could even do away with ghost heat BS, since the only mechs that targets are 2 A/C-20 mechs and PPC mechs, everything else was nerfed for no reason. (Suppose super LRM boats, but they already run pretty hot for their inefficiency).

[Lysander Voidrunner]

Mischief at least has a good idea, if PGI will not fix this, at least make it so that the weapon efficiancies that were promissed make it possible to reduce the charge up time to 0. This could help.

[Fuzzbox]

I'm sorry, but where is the official communication for this charge up time suggestion? It really seems like a very strange way of dealing with a problem that is not a major problem anymore (some combination of weapons will always be the best). Implementing this on the gauss (that blows up if you look at it) seems very strange.

I have probably missed this communication, so a link would be lovely

Edited by Ingrid, 25 August 2013 - 09:16 AM.

[VagGR]

Ingrid, on 25 August 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but where is the official communication for this charge up time suggestion? It really seems like a very strange way of dealing with a problem that is not a major problem anymore (some combination of weapons will always be the best). Implementing this on the gauss (that blows up if you look at it) seems very strange.

I have probably missed this communication, so a link would be lovely

http://mwomercs.com/...vs-45-answered/

[Lysander Voidrunner]

Oh, as a sidenote, about 10-30% of the time, even when my gauss slug connects it doesn't register, so this will not help to fix the gauss.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Yeah, give charge up to the PPCs, because every dirtbag who boats PPC/Gauss is just going to switch to 2PPC 1 AC20

[VagGR]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 25 August 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

Yeah, give charge up to the PPCs, because every dirtbag who boats PPC/Gauss is just going to switch to 2PPC 1 AC20

honestly i think the "charge up" idea is bad in general not just gauss, PPCs too

[Fuzzbox]

VagGR, on 25 August 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...vs-45-answered/

Thanks VaGR, I missed that. *******, this sucks big time.

Why can't they ever think about reasonable things? They already made the Gauss blow up if you look at it, it is the heaviest weapon out there. I guess it is nice and cool and don't suffer its minimum range penalty, but why not start there, give it a minimum range penalty and a different recycle time from ppcs (or even simpler a different travel time)

Edited by Ingrid, 25 August 2013 - 09:17 PM.

[Risko Vinsheen]

My thought is to take a note from the Battletech lore. In the books (or at least in the Blood of Kerensky trilogy) they make it clear that the Gauss Rifle's energy requirements make it unable to be used simultaneously with other high energy weapons, because they're both trying to draw from the same energy source at the same time, so the Battlemech's computer staggers the weapons fire to compensate.

So do it like this:
Fire Gauss Rifle and Lasers/PPCs together? Gauss Rifle fires first, Energy weapons fire .75 seconds-1 second later.
Fire Gauss Rifle on its own? Gauss Rifle fires instantly without any hiccup.
Fire Energy weapons on their own? Energy weapons fire instantly without any hiccup.
Fire two Gauss Rifles together? One Gauss Rifle fires first, second Gauss Rifle fires after the delay.
Give it like a 1 second or so window between the use of the Gauss Rifle and the energy weapons to avoid the delay.

**Note: My numbers are arbitrary and could be changed for better balance. I'm more focused on the general idea.

Edited by Risko Vinsheen, 25 August 2013 - 03:24 PM.

[Xeren KelDar]

Risko Vinsheen, on 25 August 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

My thought is to take a note from the Battletech lore. In the books (or at least in the Blood of Kerensky trilogy) they make it clear that the Gauss Rifle's energy requirements make it unable to be used simultaneously with other high energy weapons, because they're both trying to draw from the same energy source at the same time, so the Battlemech's computer staggers the weapons fire to compensate.

So do it like this:
Fire Gauss Rifle and Lasers/PPCs together? Gauss Rifle fires first, Energy weapons fire .75 seconds-1 second later.
Fire Gauss Rifle on its own? Gauss Rifle fires instantly without any hiccup.
Fire Energy weapons on their own? Energy weapons fire instantly without any hiccup.
Fire two Gauss Rifles together? One Gauss Rifle fires first, second Gauss Rifle fires after the delay.
Give it like a 1 second or so window between the use of the Gauss Rifle and the energy weapons to avoid the delay.

**Note: My numbers are arbitrary and could be changed for better balance. I'm more focused on the general idea.

This idea has more merit than the charge up I think, but I don't know if I like adding another penalty to lasers since they'll all ready spread damage. At most I'd say just put it on the large weapons, but medium lasers for instance wouldn't incur the penalty.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

I agree with Risko Vinsheen's idea. It's solid. And it will not penalize a balanced mech. Only boats. We need more suggestions like this. This is far better than the typical nerfherders call to make it useless no matter the cost to gameplay and balance.

[VagGR]

Risko Vinsheen, on 25 August 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

My thought is to take a note from the Battletech lore. In the books (or at least in the Blood of Kerensky trilogy) they make it clear that the Gauss Rifle's energy requirements make it unable to be used simultaneously with other high energy weapons, because they're both trying to draw from the same energy source at the same time, so the Battlemech's computer staggers the weapons fire to compensate.

So do it like this:
Fire Gauss Rifle and Lasers/PPCs together? Gauss Rifle fires first, Energy weapons fire .75 seconds-1 second later.
Fire Gauss Rifle on its own? Gauss Rifle fires instantly without any hiccup.
Fire Energy weapons on their own? Energy weapons fire instantly without any hiccup.
Fire two Gauss Rifles together? One Gauss Rifle fires first, second Gauss Rifle fires after the delay.
Give it like a 1 second or so window between the use of the Gauss Rifle and the energy weapons to avoid the delay.

**Note: My numbers are arbitrary and could be changed for better balance. I'm more focused on the general idea.

thats a solid idea....

Edited by VagGR, 26 August 2013 - 05:14 AM.

[Zarlaren]

I never thought the gauss rifle had a balance issue I would like to see a change in lrms and the Flamer the lrm spam is getting rather stupid. In my opinion the guass rifle is fine and balanced the way it should work and doesn't deserve a nerf or buff. If you must look at a weapon look at the lrms and the Flamer. Go in a few rounds with lrm boats and get blasted down by 200 lrms by 5 lrm boats with only one ams to protect you and you will know what I'm talking about. And only some mechs is dual ams cappable which I though about getting cause I'm sick of these lrm boats that hide and launch lrms in a spamming manner and make no effort in close combat. The Gauss Rifle is fine and -not- broken look at other weapons like lrms, And a Flamer is a joke weapon rediculous weak weapon that has no purpose other then dead weight it takes like 6+ of them to do something and by then your overheating.

I would make a video on how weak a flamer is but don't know how to make one. So take a Hunchback with 10-11 energy and add nothing but flamers on it and see how long it takes to kill a enemy mech in Testing. You will overheat like crazy.

So in what way is the Gauss Rifle broken? Cause I don't see a Issue when them as to me they are balanced. There is weapons that is off balance in the op(overpower) and up(underpower) scale, Lrms,SSrms, PPC,Flamer, possibly Machine Gun, And Srms for instance that you could look at instead. Cause fixing the Gauss Rifle is like repairing a new road that don't need fixing that the resources coulda been used to fix old worn out roads.

Edited by Zarla, 26 August 2013 - 12:50 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

There's nothing wrong with the Gauss rifle right now. Nerfing it just to fix high damage alphas is asinine.

If they want to nerf the 2xPPC+Gauss combo, just make the mech "overload" and shut down if the pilot fires more than 1 PPC and a Gauss together. They get the shot off, but they will shut down every time the do it because of power overload, not heat.

Or something to that effect. The point being, they need to address the actual problem directly...not in a contrived indirect manner.

[oldradagast]

No direct fire weapon should have a charge up time after pulling the trigger unless it is guided (and thus probably not direct fire) or an area effect (which the game doesn't really have.) Any other weapon would be rendered nearly useless if it sits there, doing nothing, for a while after the trigger is pulled.

This proposed change really angers me. As usual, the PPC is more the problem than the gauss, but there are many large mechs that rely on the Gauss as their primary punch at range. All of those mechs are basically gimped if this change is implemented since a delay fire Gauss will be next to worthless unless used against slow-moving, unaware targets. Ironically, such targets are more likely to be encountered by skilled snipers, thus meaning this proposed change ruins the Gauss for most players EXCEPT the snipers, who can still (sort of) use it... great proposed "fix?!"

Oh, and then there's the likely macro solution to the delay between the PPC and Gauss, but that's another topic.

Worthless "fix" is worthless.

Edited by oldradagast, 27 August 2013 - 08:07 AM.

[The Botanist]

Bhael Fire, on 27 August 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

There's nothing wrong with the Gauss rifle right now. Nerfing it just to fix high damage alphas is asinine.
manner.

If it aint broke, fix it until it is . . . .

Yeah, the gauss is fine in my opinion. Also the suggestion of minimum range is absurd. Any metallic projectile is at is highest velocity (thus damage potential) when it leaves the barrel and only loses energy after. That it would somehow need range to arm does not make any mechanical sense.

I agree that some sort of convergence for ballistic weapons would work a lot better. Ballistic weapons should not necessarily be 100% accurate to where aimed. Level of precision in manufacture, wear, and weather all affect a projectile's performance in addition to any combat situation variables. I am not saying you should miss the target sometimes if you aimed at it, however, if you aimed at the CT maybe you actually hit the Side Torso. This would seem like much more of an actual solution to the problem of high pinpoint alphas.

.