1105 replies to this topic

[101011]

merz, on 12 September 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

Cheers. I just wanted to point out that much of the stuff that chronojam and his crew go back to is very much valid - which is when russ and co. have made concrete, unambiguous promises that were subsequently broken. The problem there was precisely that they communicated too much to the community, when lauded developers like valve or bioware tend to say absolutely nothing, give no promises or commitments and try to interact with their 'communities' as little as possible. Thats basic PR/Community management when it comes to these things. The only reason folks like the goons cry out for more communication is in hopes of mis-steps like these that can be used as ammunition against a developer. Its basic social engineering. The more you interact with them, the more they will attempt to manipulate the entire process, control the conversation, etc. You should see the instructions these guys have on their site for trolling Paul. They explicitly state never to do it if you're not recording, and never to do it alone "So that if you drop the ball, someone else can pick up" or something of the sort.

Valve (I personally do not know much about BioWare) doesn't talk to their playerbase about their games (sort-of), that's true. However, they are also a VERY successful company that has yet to make a game that people don't enjoy. Even their lack-luster games are fun. I mean...Half Life was one of the first (and arguably the best) FPS game, followed by the equally amazing HL2 and its Episodes. Don't mention TF2 (also very successful), Portal I&II, CS, L4D I&II, or just Steam in general. With a track record like that, they can afford to be quiet. PGI, on the other hand, has a habit of surprising it's funders with controversial content by throwing it into a patch and explaining it later, and as it is a new-ish developer without successful games to its name, there's not a lot of pre-existing faith, which does make a difference. What would you do if the developers just stopped talking completely, and all we got was the bi-weekly update for the rest of the game's life? No CDU, no CMD Chair posts, nothing. Probably not a good idea.

[Chronojam]

101011, on 12 September 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

Valve (I personally do not know much about BioWare) doesn't talk to their playerbase about their games (sort-of), that's true. However, they are also a VERY successful company that has yet to make a game that people don't enjoy. Even their lack-luster games are fun. I mean...Half Life was one of the first (and arguably the best) FPS game, followed by the equally amazing HL2 and its Episodes. Don't mention TF2 (also very successful), Portal I&II, CS, L4D I&II, or just Steam in general. With a track record like that, they can afford to be quiet. PGI, on the other hand, has a habit of surprising it's funders with controversial content by throwing it into a patch and explaining it later, and as it is a new-ish developer without successful games to its name, there's not a lot of pre-existing faith, which does make a difference. What would you do if the developers just stopped talking completely, and all we got was the bi-weekly update for the rest of the game's life? No CDU, no CMD Chair posts, nothing. Probably not a good idea.

It's a bit of a stretch to suggest that Valve doesn't listen to their communities. Valve actively grows them and allows players to expand them, that's part of their business model.

Valve is also well known in the industry for conducting wildly successful and useful playtesting trials, useful-to-everybody hardware surveys, and has frequently had players welcomed to their offices during development. They work incredibly hard to foster communities for games they haven't made themselves, and are willing to work closely with developers and publishers to ensure the best player experience.

Among gamers they are notable for excellent and professional customer service, and frank Developer Commentary that accompanies their own releases gives a good insight into their own thought processes. Community organizers and content generators are well recognized and rewarded, and given opportunities to showcase their creations and in many cases fan-generated gameplay concepts or content are incorporated directly into their games.

Let's not forget that Gabe himself welcomes all feedback directly to his own email account (as he points out in all the excellent dev commentaries) and frequently makes appearances at gamer-oriented conventions, university lectures, Q&A sessions, etc.

Despite having such a huge playerbase for their own games and an extended userbase for supported products on Steam, Valve and their senior staff make an excellent effort to interact directly with the community. Blogs, press releases, and bonus content like their impressive number of update-foreshadowing comic series help them communicate with players and they do take that feedback seriously.

It is essentially unthinkable that some sort of 2PPC1Gauss dominance would be ignored or left to reign supreme in any sort of Valve title. They're not above admitting or apologizing for mistakes either.




With MWO we're lucky to get full patchnotes the morning of a release.

[merz]

but wait, your community, the 'we' you're the self-appointed voice of, is actually tugging in 10 different directions even about the 2ppc1gauss dominance. some praise the gauss changes, others envision different system, some say its entirely broken, some say ppcs were over-nerfed, others say that they're still too effective, and some are saying that the game was awesome during the 2ppc1gauss era, or even the 3ppc/gauss and 4ppc or 6 ppc or 6uac2 macro era?... ..and for each of those things, they've got very fragmented solutions that, when posted in their own threads, have dozens of replies calling each other a bunch of idiots.

..i've cited actual links in the post you've ignored. my point, of course, being that you speak not for this community but for something awful. as the sig says, bropocalypse now?

101011, on 12 September 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

. What would you do if the developers just stopped talking completely, and all we got was the bi-weekly update for the rest of the game's life? No CDU, no CMD Chair posts, nothing. Probably not a good idea.

no, what i suggested was the idea that this game is crowd-designed is silly. see the above for reasons.
chronojam seeks to, heh, unite the clans so long as its getting the rage going, but when it comes to choosing particular design solutions (or, nevermind that, even identifying specific problems!), all that faux-egalitarian bs goes out the window. you can see chronojam's actual argument change depending on the situation for maximum rage output

Edited by merz, 12 September 2013 - 01:22 PM.

[WarHippy]

merz, on 12 September 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

but wait, your community, the 'we' you're the self-appointed voice of, is actually tugging in 10 different directions even about the 2ppc1gauss dominance. some praise the gauss changes, others envision different system, some say its entirely broken, some say ppcs were over-nerfed, others say that they're still too effective, and some are saying that the game was awesome during the 2ppc1gauss era, or even the 3ppc/gauss and 4ppc or 6 ppc or 6uac2 macro era?... ..and for each of those things, they've got very fragmented solutions that, when posted in their own threads, have dozens of replies calling each other a bunch of idiots.

..i've cited actual links in the post you've ignored. my point, of course, being that you speak not for this community but for something awful. as the sig says, bropocalypse now?



no, what i suggested was the idea that this game is crowd-designed is silly. see the above for reasons.
chronojam seeks to, heh, unite the clans so long as its getting the rage going, but when it comes to choosing particular design solutions (or, nevermind that, even identifying specific problems!), all that faux-egalitarian bs goes out the window. you can see chronojam's actual argument change depending on the situation for maximum rage output

All I see in your posts is some sort of vendetta against chronojam/goons. Are you actually trying to make a point in this thread, or are you just here to speak drivel about how much you dislike someone online?

[merz]

and my drivel about what i dislike online is somehow less worthwhile than another person's drivel about what he dislikes online because....? but, now that you say it, i think i made plenty decent sense in what i wrote, assuming you actually bothered to read it. anyway, i don't claim to speak for any community, any 'us' or voice besides my own. I've spent a bit over a year here watching the whole thing develop and playing extensively, and I've noticed in that time a pretty consistent element in some folks trying to bury the game. Which is pretty sad because i happen to enjoy it. So there goes my 2c on the subject, given that i'm rather bored and have some time to waste on articulating it. Most of those similarly inclined just avoid this festering cloaca.

Edited by merz, 12 September 2013 - 02:00 PM.

[WarHippy]

merz, on 12 September 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

and my drivel about what i dislike online is somehow less worthwhile than another person's drivel about what he dislikes online because....? but, now that you say it, i think i made plenty decent sense in what i wrote, assuming you actually bothered to read it. anyway, i don't claim to speak for any community, any 'us' or voice besides my own. I've spent a bit over a year here watching the whole thing develop and playing extensively, and I've noticed in that time a pretty consistent element in some folks trying to bury the game. Which is pretty sad because i happen to enjoy it. So there goes my 2c on the subject, given that i'm rather bored and have some time to waste on articulating it. Most of those similarly inclined just avoid this festering cloaca.

The difference is people like chronojam are talking about problems with the game and problems with how the developers are handling themselves. The only thing I have seen you do is attack other posters for having a different opinion, and attempting to besmirch other people by implying some sort of Goon conspiracy. If you want to refute what he says, or make your own viewpoint heard then leave the personal attacks and conspiracy nonsense at the curb.

[merz]

My point was made right here, and it was fairly coherent, though its funny how quick you are to try and margalise me based on some 'conspiracy'.. you realise a lot of that stuff is on public (or just about so with SA) forums? Besides, your own post history illustrates pretty dead on that you're one of chrono's regular supporters. Not only do you hold a strictly negative view of the game and its developers, but you very actively try to promote that view here. Chrono doesn't objectively outline any problems, as i've said before, but rather seizes upon every opportunity to embarrass and undermine PGI. He isn't even consistent to the problems that he outlines, as it depends upon the individual agitated thread and poster he is acting in support to.

Oh, and lol @ your moral high ground. "besmirch"


Again, anyone who for a moment doubts my objectivity should check out the random slate of subjects these clowns hop on to. everything from 'why is pgi hosting launch in SF?' to 'ghost heat is awful!' to 'ppcs and gauss were king for too long!' to 'uac is OP!', to 'they're gonna ruin and nerf your uac!' to 'ui2.0 is never coming! its all vapourware! '

..etc etc.

Edited by merz, 12 September 2013 - 02:12 PM.

[WarHippy]

merz, on 12 September 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

My point was made right here, and it was fairly coherent, though its funny how quick you are to try and margalise me based on some 'conspiracy'.. you realise a lot of that stuff is on public (or just about so with SA) forums? Besides, your own post history illustrates pretty dead on that you're one of chrono's regular supporters. Not only do you hold a strictly negative view of the game and its developers, but you very actively try to promote that view here. Chrono doesn't objectively outline any problems, as i've said before, but rather seizes upon every opportunity to embarrass and undermine PGI. He isn't even consistent to the problems that he outlines, as it depends upon the individual agitated thread and poster he is acting in support to.

Oh, and lol @ your moral high ground. "besmirch"


Again, anyone who for a moment doubts my objectivity should check out the random slate of subjects these clowns hop on to. everything from 'why is pgi hosting launch in SF?' to 'ghost heat is awful!' to 'ppcs and gauss were king for too long!' to 'uac is OP!', to 'they're gonna ruin and nerf your uac!' to 'ui2.0 is never coming! its all vapourware! '

..etc etc.

Yeah, your wall of text was mostly attacks on chronojam, goons, and anyone that is frustrated with the current state of the game. Do try and make a real point that isn't just repeated attacks. Give valid reasons that don't involve calling people entitled, trolls, or whatever new descriptor you come up with.

As for me agreeing with chronojam I do on a lot of things, more so now that I am jaded from the actions of the devs these last few months, but I will happily put my post record up against yours any day. All you do is target chronojam in every thread up until now where you actually have responded to me.

[merz]

real point: we cannot agree on the problems or solutions, only thing some of us agree on (for wide variety of conflicting reasons) is that 'pgi sucks', which is the gist of every single post you and chrono have made. myself and other people who share my feelings on this subject are no less a part of this community than you or chrono, so why is it that you should control the entire conversation? because appeals to rage are by definition more vocal than appeals to reason and understanding, or expressions of support? i don't imagine that you'd acknowledge this making sense, as you're not here to understand anyone's point, but rather to amplify chrono's appeals to rage from other people..

the part that bothers me is that this is an obvious stab at social engineering, same way that merry bunch has gone about other games and to a similar effect. and, you know, that whole adage about those who do not learn from history ...etc

Edited by merz, 12 September 2013 - 02:59 PM.

[Literally]

Merz, you are making the laziest possible arguments I could ever think of. If all you can think of is "community feedback is mixed and community relations are hard, so PGI just shouldn't try", then don't bother pressing that post button at all.

PGI should not have to take the same position as the playerbase majority, and they don't have to. Chronojam isn't pretending to be the arbiter of community opinion, and he's not claiming that PGI needs to do whatever he wants or even what player polls ask for. What he, and I, and many many players are asking for, is simple and reasonable. We want PGI to implement and use a real actual quality control pipeline. It means talking to players about concepts, then revising. Then it means talking to players about the implementation method, then revising. Then it means actually play testing with actual players, and then revising. Then it means letting everyone know about the change and trying it on the servers. Then it means watching the player response and being willing to go back. Then it probably means revising again.

We aren't claiming it's an easy process, or a short process. However, it's productive and in the end it is faster, since you don't lose potential players and backtrack constantly. Pretending that there's not total community consensus and therefore we should all just give up is dishonest, stupid, and a waste of our time. There are many good examples of what a developer can do and how well a game can turn out using a process like this, and there are plenty of cautionary tales as well. So stop wasting our time with your stream of consciousness half-formed rants about people you just plain don't happen to like.

[Chronojam]

merz, on 12 September 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

but wait, your community, the 'we' you're the self-appointed voice of, is actually tugging in 10 different directions even about the 2ppc1gauss dominance. some praise the gauss changes, others envision different system, some say its entirely broken, some say ppcs were over-nerfed, others say that they're still too effective, and some are saying that the game was awesome during the 2ppc1gauss era, or even the 3ppc/gauss and 4ppc or 6 ppc or 6uac2 macro era?... ..and for each of those things, they've got very fragmented solutions that, when posted in their own threads, have dozens of replies calling each other a bunch of idiots.

It's OK to feel different about solutions. It's not OK to let six or seven months go by with zero solutions, which is the course PGI opted to take despite promising "aggressive balancing." There are few who would argue that there needed to be aggressive balancing, or some solution, because the game becomes stale as fewer builds become viable -- this is one of the reasons why some wish that single heatsinks and double heatsinks behaved differently instead of a strict gotta-have-it upgrade. It's more interesting at every level from customization, to maneuvers, to engagement profile, to team chassis selection, when more builds are viable.

Ghost heat reduced the number of viable builds without touching the dominant builds. The single-point heat increase for PPCs was almost insulting after the months of fans clamoring for something to be done. In fact, in the face of all the different visions and solutions fans proposed (none of which ever being tried as far as we know, and none ever presented on the test server), I guess it is pretty insulting that they went with a single-point heat increase despite the variety of suggestions.

Everybody with a different solution is just trying to make the game work right. I don't think there is a particular agenda being pushed by anybody with their own special snowflake solution, they all want the game to work better. PGI wants to throw out a token appeasement.

Look how they refused to entertain the semi-popular sentiment that charge-up should apply to PPCs despite fan feedback before/during/after the charge-up development. I don't particularly care for the charge-up but would welcome an actual public-gets-involved testing process to see if perhaps it would make the game play better.

Also you're funny for trotting out the mythical 6PPC Stalker. The gimmick build that was never even effective on paper, yes? Never suitable for even mid-level play except as a joke. Jokes can still win sometimes, I've won several games in nothing but a team of Commandos, but PGI ought to not base balance around the specter of a gimmick/joke build that never saw an impact except perhaps when it came to killing the awful jokes that are the Trial Mech builds.

6PPC stalker is a red herring, and watching PGI staff tout its demise on Twitter as evidence that Ghost Heat was a success is maddening since we see that a pair of AC\2, chain-fired, generate a heat penalty due to its poor implementation and lack of testing; bravo, fewer builds viable, don't expect us to clap since there's one less joke build we can make. That programming could've gone towards any number of subsystems instead.

merz, on 12 September 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

He isn't even consistent to the problems that he outlines, as it depends upon the individual agitated thread and poster he is acting in support to.

Sometimes I forget things like how double heatsinks outside the engine operate as 1.4x efficiency because, well, there's just been so many mistakes, bugs, blunders, and things that slip through the cracks. And trotting them all out, for every thread, would just make the thread lose focus quicker than it might otherwise.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Zanathan, on 12 September 2013 - 03:56 AM, said:

I think he is comparing progress and what they achieved to date with about the same number of employees as PGI.

My point being (in part) that they are making what appears to be a far more standard game (drastically more simple from what little I have seen of it - IE only 1 hitbox per unit as opposed to 8) and thus far less interesting to me.

Hawken appears to be simply yet another FPS whose big gimmic is that you are a 'mech' instead of a man... and while MWO may be headed that way (may not, only the developers know for sure) it is still miles away from what Hawken is.

Sorry it took me a bit to get this out - thinking really slowly today

[BadOptics]

Merz,

I just need you to confirm some rumors I've been hearing about the Goons/SA being allied with the reptilians as well as their involvement with the UN black helicopter division. It's well documented (as you have alluded to) that they have been infiltrating our puny human internet games in preparation for the impending take over, but I think it's time to bring out the truly important revelations.

Stand strong against our UN reptilian overlords at Something Awful!

[Literally]

I can neither confirm nor deny that we have hacked all your websites and downloaded all your firewalls. I cannot tell you what is contained in the two hours of mandatory subliminal programming that All Goons watch every day. I will not reveal the nature of our true sinister plot to ruin all videogames forever. You can't prove that we are why the My Little Pony script you mailed to Tara Strong was turned down. Lowtax had nothing to do with the implementation of Obamacare's free government suicide booths for grandmothers. Goons are your friends.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

merz, on 12 September 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

My point was made right here, and it was fairly coherent, though its funny how quick you are to try and margalise me based on some 'conspiracy'.. you realise a lot of that stuff is on public (or just about so with SA) forums? Besides, your own post history illustrates pretty dead on that you're one of chrono's regular supporters. Not only do you hold a strictly negative view of the game and its developers, but you very actively try to promote that view here. Chrono doesn't objectively outline any problems, as i've said before, but rather seizes upon every opportunity to embarrass and undermine PGI. He isn't even consistent to the problems that he outlines, as it depends upon the individual agitated thread and poster he is acting in support to.

Oh, and lol @ your moral high ground. "besmirch"


Again, anyone who for a moment doubts my objectivity should check out the random slate of subjects these clowns hop on to. everything from 'why is pgi hosting launch in SF?' to 'ghost heat is awful!' to 'ppcs and gauss were king for too long!' to 'uac is OP!', to 'they're gonna ruin and nerf your uac!' to 'ui2.0 is never coming! its all vapourware! '

..etc etc.

Alot of people agree with Chronojam, not because he is a goon, or slightly anti pgi or any subversive reason.

But because generally he talks sense, has good points, and acknowledges the problems that the game has.

He isn't some neckbeard sucking from the PGI White Knight machine willing to accept everything as "coming soon (for eternity).
Or the ridiculously slow rate of balance passes, seriously this game has been beta for some time and balance changes should have been done with each patch major problems should not have been left for 6+ months.

And look at the public test server, restricted and dead...before it actually began.

It's unfortunate for the IP but PGI are out of their depth, that isn't going to change in a hurry. The question is weather the game can survive the length of time it takes.

[AndyHill]

merz, on 12 September 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

no, what i suggested was the idea that this game is crowd-designed is silly. see the above for reasons.
chronojam seeks to, heh, unite the clans so long as its getting the rage going, but when it comes to choosing particular design solutions (or, nevermind that, even identifying specific problems!), all that faux-egalitarian bs goes out the window. you can see chronojam's actual argument change depending on the situation for maximum rage output

But isn't that exactly what they are doing? I've heard in interviews that PGI look at responses to their changes by means of some kind of a statistical analysis on how many people oppose or like the change. They even make polls on temporary(?) changes like the SRM buff. Aren't those things pretty much the purest form of crowd-design? As opposed to what the community at large is usually asking for, which is basically intelligent and honest dialog based on the concerns, views and even gameplay analysis raised by the community.

[Blue Footed Booby]

Literally, on 12 September 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:

I can neither confirm nor deny that we have hacked all your websites and downloaded all your firewalls. I cannot tell you what is contained in the two hours of mandatory subliminal programming that All Goons watch every day. I will not reveal the nature of our true sinister plot to ruin all videogames forever. You can't prove that we are why the My Little Pony script you mailed to Tara Strong was turned down. Lowtax had nothing to do with the implementation of Obamacare's free government suicide booths for grandmothers. Goons are your friends.

And I, for one, will never reveal the Woo Tang secret.

[W A R L O R D]

CyBerkut, on 07 September 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

Elaborate, please. What is it that you think we should all get out of that 1 minute and 10 seconds?

• That PGI isn't a bunch of monsters trying to ruin the game
  
• A reminder to Russ & Crew of why they got involved in the franchise in the first place and to think about preserving the "soul" of the MechWarrior/Battletech game and not be driven by profits, but rather their desire to bring back to life this great franchise.

​I hope that helps!

[Blue Footed Booby]

SAYF, on 13 September 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

• That PGI isn't a bunch of monsters trying to ruin the game
  
• A reminder to Russ & Crew of why they got involved in the franchise in the first place and to think about preserving the "soul" of the MechWarrior/Battletech game and not be driven by profits, but rather their desire to bring back to life this great franchise.

​I hope that helps!

PGI is a business, and businesses exist to make money. There's nothing wrong with that. The point is that preserving the soul of Mechwarrior is integral to how you make money with the Mechwarrior IP.

[Protection]