36 replies to this topic

[ollo]

Preface: This was supposed to be an answer to another post discussing the "19-20h to buy an atlas" quote by some dev, but i thought it might be worth it's own thread considering my findings.

Disclaimer: there are some assumptions in it, like average costs for weapons, equipment, modules and average playtime per day, to which i have no hard data. Feel free to post alternate numbers, preferably with explanations why you feel that yours are more on spot.

Kraven Kor, on 23 August 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

To be fair, if they make progress too quick, those who play 12+ hours a day will have bought everything in the first few weeks of play and then C-Bills become a number that constantly rises for no purpose.

Make it too slow, people say @#$% it.

That is a hard one to balance.

10000000CB / 20h = 500.000CB/h earned. At least that's what PGi is aiming for.

So, let's say the assaults cost around 8 million each. Then this means 5 * 3 * 8,000,000 if you want to own and max out each chassis. As you don't want to sport SHS, you have to add 1,500,000. You also want to outfit them, so let's add another 1,500,000 (Gauss/ERPPC is 600,000, ERLL/PPC is 400,000, LB10X is 800,000, so that might be fitting in average). Throw in an occasional XL engine and perhaps endo steel structure here and there, i'd say on 3 mechs each.

OK, now we're at 5 * 3 * (8,000,000 + 1,500,000 + 1,500,000) + 3 * 1,000,000 + 3 * 4,500,000, this is a whopping 181,500,000 CB. In game time this is 363h. Assuming you play 1h/day every day of the week this means you'll play 52 weeks or in other words, a year. I'm not sure what the average playtime of F2P-titles is or should be, but taking myself as a reference 1h/day could be ok - i am a hardcore gamer, long time Battletech fan, have a job, take holidays, and have numerous other games i haven't played yet.

To sum it up:

• you have to play for a year to get the assaults maxed out
  
• only the assaults (lighter classes cost less, but XL engines and DHS/Endo are relatively fixed expenses), so you may throw around 2 extra years in
  
• not considering there will be more and more mechs added
  
• not considering you sometimes mess up or want to fiddle around (and have to revert things like endo steel or buy the same **** twice because you sold stuff)
  
• and the best: you don't have any modules yet, so you can throw in another 10,000,000 for every mech, or in other words another year
  
• these 4 years are reduced by 33% if you buy premium, someone else can calculate what this would cost in $$$
  
• you can multiply the years maybe by factor 1.5-2 if you're a not-so-good player
  
• and did you know that many mechs actually have more then 3 variants?

So, what's your opinion on this? I think that a] we're just not supposed to be collectors and should try to focus on a couple of favorite mechs, and b] the CB nerf was completely and utterly unneccessary,,,


BTW, a] also means that PGI loses around 30$ per player on mechbays (assuming that you sell half of the chassis after maxing them out and forgetting that there are more mechs added in the future)

[ollo]

Oh, and another BTW: why not add a converter CB -> MC as CB sink if the devs are worried about the (few) ones that have amassed 200+ million CB? Just use 1,000,000 CB -> 10 MC or something like that, then they'd be able to afford two premium colors...

[Wintersdark]

*shrugs*

"It's a free to play game, and it will take me years to earn enough in-game currency to buy absolutely everything."

...And? Welcome to F2P games.

If you really want everything, buy some with MC (sales are great there), or just play the game.

[Kitane]

That is just nonsense, OP.

No normal player would buy new modules, engines and weapons for every mech. All equipment is reusable and if you want to collect multiple mechs, you just need to worry about mechbays, mechs and upgrades like DHS and Endo.

I'd say it would be around year to get every currently existing mech in the game and that's not bad.

I've spent several months in WoT and I have probably less than 5% of all vehicles in the game.

Edited by Kitane, 27 August 2013 - 04:32 PM.

[ollo]

Kitane, on 27 August 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

That is just nonsense, OP.

Then why do you agree with it (partly)?

Quote

No normal player would buy new modules, engines and weapons for every mech. All equipment is reusable and if you want to collect multiple mechs, you just need to worry about mechbays, mechs and upgrades like DHS and Endo.

...as i said, chassis + DHS is mandatory, XL and Endo optional - but you'll definately use them on some mechs, i assumed 20%, it'd be possibly more in my case if i could afford it. I don't know about your storage, but mine is stuffed with much of the stock weaponry which got replaced by a lot of AC2s, PPCs and Gauss, sided by a couple of standard engines that are never the ones i need for a new build. And i usually stick with a good config i made, mostly because it'd cost a fortune to rip the endo, ferro or artemis out again and it'd feel like i flushed money down the drain. Maybe 1,500,000 per assault mech is a bit too high, i'll give you that, but if you stick with your mechs, there is almost no reusable equipment.

And modules are supposed to be the end game, and sure as hell i'd equip every mech to the max - again, if i could afford it. Currently there's virtually no incentive to do complete the top tier, because you can be happy to have 1 module in a chassis. At least i am, but i've never sold any mech yet, 20+ in garage. You could build maxed out mechs faster if you were only keeping a small number of mechs, but i'd still say that loses PGIGP money on mechbays. And perhaps camo, items etc.

Quote

I'd say it would be around year to get every currently existing mech in the game and that's not bad.

...which is exactly the number i calculated based on my assumptions... only for assaults...

So what are you proposing? What are your assumed numbers? Even with reduced weaponry costs that wouldn't change much of my sum, and that'd be around 3 years without modules.

Quote

I've spent several months in WoT and I have probably less than 5% of all vehicles in the game.

Which is comparing apples and oranges because MWO doesn't work the way WoT does. An atlas does not make a jenner obsolete, like the higher tier tanks do in WoT, of course there will be ****** tanks in WoT like there are broken mechs in MWO, so you propably don't want to own every mech. But i'd at least want to try them, master most of them and keep at least one variant for good measure. Hunter-Gatherer, you know?

As things stand now, i'm most likely to sell all mechs except my favorite variant after mastering the chassis, and instead of buying new mechbays i'll just stop spending money on them as i'll have enough for a long time. Which also means i'm not as convinced to buy camo, as i'd mostly use it to have some variety between the variants. Which also means there is no incentive to do full unlocks of camo if i only own one variant, not that it'd have been in any way an attractive option before.

[Hexenhammer]

I have no problem with it taking a long time to earn mechs. As others have said its a free to play game and if PGI makes it to easy to earn CBills then people wont buy mechs with it.


Maybe I'm the odd ball because I'm not up in arms about Cbills. I'm focused on earning XP to level my mechs. Maybe once I've leveled up my spiders then I'll be desperate for Cbills but not till then.

[Onmyoudo]

It wouldn't be a problem to take a long time to get mechs if there was literally anything else to do. There isn't. Buying mechs is all there is and that is why the C-Bill nerf has killed a lot of interest in playing.

[Plonky]

Also, the barrier to entry in this game is WAY too high. This isn't like league of legends, where the trial champs are perfectly viable. Trial mechs are, for the most part, worse than the other mechs on the battlefield. Trial mechs should really be hero and champion mechs ONLY, so that new players (and veterans) can play with GOOD mechs (and if they enjoy playing them be inspired to buy them with real money).

It should be a lot EASIER to accumulate new mechs. The fun in this game comes from customizing a mech that you OWN, and then playing with that mech. Let people do that AS EARLY AS POSSIBLE. I've written some suggestions in this post - http://mwomercs.com/...earning-better/

Edited by PeenyPoke, 28 August 2013 - 01:06 AM.

[ollo]

Hexenhammer, on 27 August 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

I have no problem with it taking a long time to earn mechs. As others have said its a free to play game and if PGI makes it to easy to earn CBills then people wont buy mechs with it.

Well, then what will they buy instead?

I think it's the exact opposite: i was buying mechs like wild before, as soon as i got the money i bought another variant or chassis and a mechbay. Now i'm saving my money, because i have the feeling i'll never be able to max out my favorite mechs instead, considering the modules cost as much as an atlas.

Quote

Maybe I'm the odd ball because I'm not up in arms about Cbills. I'm focused on earning XP to level my mechs. Maybe once I've leveled up my spiders then I'll be desperate for Cbills but not till then.

So you only have 3 spiders? I don't know about the majority, but i quickly get bored only playing the same mech/class, also the new x2 bonus encourages to have a variety of mechs. At first my strategy was "buy mechs, buy mechs, buy mechs", so i can test out which ones i like the most, and at least level them up to elite for the bonuses (master could be later, as i have plenty of premium time and it was supposed to be endgame anyway).

I was intending to keep all of them in case PGI gets a funny idea with XP and i'd have to rebuy them - but now i'm most eager to master them and sell all but one variant on most mechs. That's money saved for me as i don't need as many mechbays, also i'll save on camo. That's not good for PGIGP, and the new player experience they hold so high will be terrible i presume, which means even less money for PGIGP.

[Mackman]

Onmyoudo, on 28 August 2013 - 12:03 AM, said:

Buying mechs is all there is

Except, you know, for piloting the mechs. Blowing up other mechs. Customizing your mechs. Blowing up other mechs some more. Customizing again. Blowing up other mechs some more.

I find it strange that you think the game revolves around buying mechs rather than playing mechs...

[Kdogg788]

Kitane, on 27 August 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

That is just nonsense, OP.

No normal player would buy new modules, engines and weapons for every mech. All equipment is reusable and if you want to collect multiple mechs, you just need to worry about mechbays, mechs and upgrades like DHS and Endo.

I'd say it would be around year to get every currently existing mech in the game and that's not bad.

I've spent several months in WoT and I have probably less than 5% of all vehicles in the game.

There is no way someone with a reasonable amount of play time will buy up every mech in the game in the course of a year. I am way off the mark, playing 1 to 2.5 hours every weekday plus sometimes 5 to 6+ hour pulls on many weekend days. I have around 25 mechs, with all but my currently building chassis, the Blackjacks mastered and over 100 million Cbills in the bank. There are many many more mechs which I do not have including several assault and heavy chassis (Highlander, Victor, Awesome, Dragon, Quickdraw).

-k

[Lord Perversor]

I did 4 Matchs today in a fresh account to check the Cadet bonus and the unbearable grind.

Proof

Cicada Trial
https://dl.dropboxus...a2AjMfUa9HMQtTQ

A1 champion (best match so far)
https://dl.dropboxus...a2AjMfUa9HMQtTQ

Raven-2x (died on this one)
https://dl.dropboxus...a2AjMfUa9HMQtTQ

Victor (died on this and win by cap)
https://dl.dropboxus...a2AjMfUa9HMQtTQ

Was lucky and 4x Victories in a single run with each chassis so can't draw how many C-bill per defeat (half i think? )

Now Draw your own conclussions but still 21 Cadet bonus to go...

Edited by Lord Perversor, 28 August 2013 - 08:34 AM.

[ollo]

Lord Perversor, on 28 August 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

Now Draw your own conclussions but still 21 Cadet bonus to go...

Which conclusion should we draw? We know that you'll have 8 million cadet bonus in the end, and in the games you made less than 80000 in average.

Conclusion: you'll be able to buy one decent mech after cadet and fit it out if you're lucky, without modules of course and without fiddling with the config, oh and without XL engine if you'd have wanted one. After that, we welcome you to grindland, where chances are you'll soon be bored to play the one mech you own and quit the game...

[ollo]

Mackman, on 28 August 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

Except, you know, for piloting the mechs. Blowing up other mechs. Customizing your mechs. Blowing up other mechs some more. Customizing again. Blowing up other mechs some more.

I find it strange that you think the game revolves around buying mechs rather than playing mechs...

The game clearly is not only about buying mechs. But if you ask anyone, they'll usually say that a lot of the fun in MW games spurs from customizing the mechs, playing around with different weapons until you have a loadout that fits your playstyle.

I'd like to say that MWO is like CSS, that the way is the goal, and indeed the gameplay is often fun, thank god. But in fact i started CSS again a couple of days ago (after years), i guess because there's something lacking in MWO and i wanted to find out what it is - no results yet apart from me now spending more time outside of MWO again.

Currently I don't want to spend the scarce CB on anything as i got the feeling it's an all to valuable ressource. So no buying mechs (and no buying mechbays), until i know where the road is going. If they wanted to encourage spending real money with the CB-nerf, it clearly has failed in my case, and considering the complaints in the forums on many others as well. They should really introduce the additional earnings that is speculated upon or bump up the premium bonus to 100%, that way premium will be a real incentive worth the money.

[Duncan Longwood]

Collecting everything in the game is nice and all, but I think a more critical approach is what is realistically expected from all players as we go into CW.

From what I understand you will be able to ready 4 mechs to take on a drop... you need 3 to master.. average of 3 modules each costing 6 million. 12 mechs and 12 modules for a new player to be ready for CW. With an average price of 5.5 million per mech (4.5mil chassis average and 1.5mil for DHS) you are looking at 138 million cbills needed on average to compete in CW.

The average gamer plays for 11-13 hours a week in US, UK, Germany, and Australia according to Wikipedia.
138,000,000/565,000=244.25 hours for a free player who is playing with one mech or on a team,
or 138,000,000/1,200,000=115 hours for a free player who is solo-pugging with 2 mechs and never spectates.

So you guys want to invite a friend to your merc corp... that's gonna take him 22 weeks to get ready for CW if you are dropping with him. Or... you could tell him to download the game and you will play with him in 10 weeks when he will have a sufficient stable of mechs for competitive drops. PGI hates team-play, the numbers don't lie.

[Wintersdark]

Duncan Longwood, on 28 August 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

Collecting everything in the game is nice and all, but I think a more critical approach is what is realistically expected from all players as we go into CW.

From what I understand you will be able to ready 4 mechs to take on a drop... you need 3 to master.. average of 3 modules each costing 6 million. 12 mechs and 12 modules for a new player to be ready for CW. With an average price of 5.5 million per mech (4.5mil chassis average and 1.5mil for DHS) you are looking at 138 million cbills needed on average to compete in CW.

The average gamer plays for 11-13 hours a week in US, UK, Germany, and Australia according to Wikipedia.
138,000,000/565,000=244.25 hours for a free player who is playing with one mech or on a team,
or 138,000,000/1,200,000=115 hours for a free player who is solo-pugging with 2 mechs and never spectates.

So you guys want to invite a friend to your merc corp... that's gonna take him 22 weeks to get ready for CW if you are dropping with him. Or... you could tell him to download the game and you will play with him in 10 weeks when he will have a sufficient stable of mechs for competitive drops. PGI hates team-play, the numbers don't lie.

Wow, there was a lot of imagination and ridiculous theorizing underneath your conclusions there.

1) You'll be able to take 4 mechs (like your "ready list" now); but not into each battle. As has already been covered by Bryan, these mechs will allow you to pick which mech you wish to drop with once you know what the map will be. This will allow players with 4 mechs ready to choose the one appropriate to a given map, but a person with one decent (non-enormously specialized) build will not be disadvantaged.

2) Even if you were correct in assuming that you could take 4 mechs into a battle and as such need four mechs, you could buy four variants of one chassis, and as such only need to upgrade those 4. Or, 3 of a chassis (which you'll need to level to master one anyways) and then start on one other chassis in the same weight class, so you just need basics in two variants to master a third.

You certainly don't need 12 mechs. That's just absurd.

---

Not to mention, you certainly don't need to "Master" mechs to be competitive. The extra module slot is useful but hardly substantial.

Edited by Wintersdark, 28 August 2013 - 11:26 AM.

[Duncan Longwood]

Wintersdark, on 28 August 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

Wow, there was a lot of imagination and ridiculous theorizing underneath your conclusions there.

1) You'll be able to take 4 mechs (like your "ready list" now); but not into each battle. As has already been covered by Bryan, these mechs will allow you to pick which mech you wish to drop with once you know what the map will be. This will allow players with 4 mechs ready to choose the one appropriate to a given map, but a person with one decent (non-enormously specialized) build will not be disadvantaged.

2) Even if you were correct in assuming that you could take 4 mechs into a battle and as such need four mechs, you could buy four variants of one chassis, and as such only need to upgrade those 4. Or, 3 of a chassis (which you'll need to level to master one anyways) and then start on one other chassis in the same weight class, so you just need basics in two variants to master a third.

You certainly don't need 12 mechs. That's just absurd.

---

Not to mention, you certainly don't need to "Master" mechs to be competitive. The extra module slot is useful but hardly substantial.

Thanks for pointing to something Bryan said early on in your post to let me know you don't know squat more than I do. You want to try to mince my argument apart at least have the decency to do a little math.. you probably know it as counting your fingers and toes. I was able to spit my post with a couple variables in it in 5 minutes. Sorry there won't be an excel spreadsheet to show all possible permutations and calculations. Eh-hole

[Kissamies]

Hexenhammer, on 27 August 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

Maybe I'm the odd ball because I'm not up in arms about Cbills. I'm focused on earning XP to level my mechs. Maybe once I've leveled up my spiders then I'll be desperate for Cbills but not till then.

I'm similar. I mastered my spiders and then I mastered my cats and now I'm close to mastering my cents. Maybe I start worrying about cbills when I move on to atlai, but I don't think so because I don't really love assaults and don't care if I master them or not, or if it takes time to level them up. I just think I ought to have one on each weight class.

[ollo]

Duncan Longwood, on 28 August 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

The average gamer plays for 11-13 hours a week in US, UK, Germany, and Australia according to Wikipedia.
138,000,000/565,000=244.25 hours for a free player who is playing with one mech or on a team,
or 138,000,000/1,200,000=115 hours for a free player who is solo-pugging with 2 mechs and never spectates.

Just to remind you, you are assuming that they spend all their playing time on MWO...

Edit: when is GTA5 coming out again for PC? I can tell you that my MWO time will then drop to almost a plain zero...

Edited by ollo, 28 August 2013 - 12:32 PM.

[Takony]

White knights to the rescue...
Cbill nerf is less $$ for PGI in the end, but hey, if they don't want money for mechbays and stuff, then it's no problem. Unless they think they can make ppl buy mechs for mc, instead of making players time worthwile...