17 replies to this topic

[1ShotPaddy]

All weapons, with the exception of anti-infantry/anti-tank weapons such as small lasers and flamers, are designed to destroy Battlemechs. They are anti-mech weapons that achieve there objectives through different means; concentrated, splash and heat damage. And are designed with different battlefield and environmental conditions in mind, considering range and enemy armaments.

The Gauss Rifle is designed to be able to strip the average medium mech of all it's armour in a given location at long ranges. However, by doubling armour values, the Gauss Rifle cannot fulfill it's function alone, and must rely on secondary systems, 2x ErPPC, to achieve the same effect.

And so it was until patch 03/09/13, when the Gauss was "decoupled" from PPCs, which themselves had their heat increased, making a sniper build with such weapons increasingly inviable.

So how are we now to achieve the effects of the Gauss Rifle as originally intended? We can't, and apparently by design.

We can still deal directed concentration damage to targets at long range, but nowhere near enough to justify the 15+ tons needed to do so. 15/20 damage to just one location has no impact on a match, and at such long ranges it is unlikely a sniper could hit the same place twice with one gauss slug. As such, sniping as a gameplay choice, as a tactical decision, is gone, and with it the utility of the Gauss Rifle. Apparently by design.

Why? Is the problem some people have, and evidently the developers, with Gauss Rifles and PPC's, or is it with sniping itself?

Count me in with the former; but if it's the latter, I'd have to disagree.

Disclaimer: I run a shotgun in the face with SRM6's and LBX style of play.

[Veranova]

That's all well and good in a real life battlefield. But in a game, no-one wants to walk out and lose their armour in one hit, this isn't COD.
It needs to be more balanced for it to be fun, hence the different quirks to weapons PGI are starting to implement to set them apart.

I've made the argument before, that imbalance isn't something to get up in arms about, because it's realistic. Naturally in war weapons are developed that give a tactical advantage.
But really that's non-sensical in the long term for a game, because you just end up with cheese builds.
If Gauss damage was doubled, then regardless of the new drawbacks, people would use it in brawls because it could tear the armour off anything.

With its incredibly high speed it does now fulfill the role of a sniper weapon quite well.
It's more usable than any other weapon for that task now.

Edited by Veranova, 03 September 2013 - 05:04 PM.

[AnnoyingCat]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhh..... No? is that the right answer?

[ZippySpeedMonkey]

How about this for an idea......

Take a medium/light mech, strip all the armour off it, and play with it for a week (all the time,no switching mechs)...

Then comeback and think about your post....I'm thinking 1 shot kills won't be so appealing for you....

[hashinshin]

It's amazing how CoD has become "quickly dying."

Counterstrike, remember that old game? Yeah. You die faster in counterstrike than you do in CoD, and with mouse+keyboard it's 900% easier to headshot in CS.

In CoD you typically walk around a corner, get shot at, then die.
In CS you walk ar- dead.

Also, in a realistic game a single round should obliterate a mech. An AC20 150mm round should just tear half your mech off.

[SkyCake]

bang on op... double Armor had diminished sniping, so we coped by increasing our alpha size. .. after today, increasing alpha size is no longer viable. .. rip sniping/support gauss/ppc mechs

[Devils Advocate]

Double armor is necessary in a first person shooter where people aren't especially likely to miss at random at medium ranges. Convergence, for better or worse, has brought "sniping" weapons back up to being as dangerous as they were in Battletech, which tends to make them feel way more efficient than lasers or lighter AC rounds. PGI found an imperfect solution to a legitimate problem and created some much funkier balance issues than the original boardgame had.

If people were not quite so gung ho on the whole battletech side of things (not that I'm saying that's a negative thing) PGI might have considered screwing around more with the damage numbers to make it all make more sense than it does now. Instead of messing with the damage they just started messing with everything else; Heat and rate of fire became the way we balanced weapons out. Another imperfect solution to a legitimate problem brought about by another imperfect solution to a legitimate problem. You see how these things start to compound on each other? It just keeps getting nuttier, and now we've changed the actual firing mechanic of a sniping weapon to make it more efficient at its core role but more difficult to alpha with in order to accomplish the feat that you've suggested. I happen to appreciate the change but it's definitely an "imperfect" solution to a legitimate issue. That issue is that nobody wants to get cored in two shots by somebody playing MS-Paint on the other side of a canyon.

Hitting somebody with sniping weapons is easy and that's enough compensation for losing the ability to strip a mech in one random location with one dice roll. Things aren't exactly "fine" as they are but I don't see any reason to buff long range heavy weapons like the Gauss rifle or the ERPPC anymore.

[Escef]

Veranova, on 03 September 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

With its incredibly high speed it does now fulfill the role of a sniper weapon quite well.
It's more usable than any other weapon for that task now.

So far I have to disagree. The charge doesn't hold long enough for me to line up a shot with the Gauss, it is now very difficult to use against a moving enemy, regardless of range.

[Veranova]

Escef, on 04 September 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

So far I have to disagree. The charge doesn't hold long enough for me to line up a shot with the Gauss, it is now very difficult to use against a moving enemy, regardless of range.

I am sure the changes will be backed off a little. By aggressive balancing they seem to have meant: "push it slightly too far to see how it affects gameplay, and then pull it back to a happy medium"
There were a couple of changes this patch which partially reversed some changes from last patch, and to me at least, the tactic is a good one.

[Escef]

Veranova, on 04 September 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

I am sure the changes will be backed off a little. By aggressive balancing they seem to have meant: "push it slightly too far to see how it affects gameplay, and then pull it back to a happy medium"
There were a couple of changes this patch which partially reversed some changes from last patch, and to me at least, the tactic is a good one.

I had my CN9-A rigged as a Gauss sniper, and it's now barely playable. I'm hesitant at this point to bust out my other Gauss carrying mechs, an HGN-733 that backs it up with 2 LLs and 4 Streaks, and a CTF-3D with 2 LPL.

[Devils Advocate]

If you can't line up a shot with the Gauss rifle you're doing it way wrong. You know you don't have to constantly press the button over and over right? You can line up the shot and then hold down the fire key or you can hold down the fire key and line up a shot. It sounds to me like you're trying to outsmart the changes and have your shot ready before you even line up the enemy and this is going to punish that.

[Escef]

Devils Advocate, on 04 September 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

If you can't line up a shot with the Gauss rifle you're doing it way wrong. You know you don't have to constantly press the button over and over right? You can line up the shot and then hold down the fire key or you can hold down the fire key and line up a shot. It sounds to me like you're trying to outsmart the changes and have your shot ready before you even line up the enemy and this is going to punish that.

Against a moving target? A target faster than 50 kph? Yeah, you're constantly looking for that good shot, and you can't take it, you have to charge up, they move while you're charging, you have to realign the shot... No really, have you NEVER aligned a shot?.. Actually, considering the way half you Founders play, it wouldn't surprise me.

[Vodrin Thales]

Escef, on 04 September 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

Against a moving target? A target faster than 50 kph? Yeah, you're constantly looking for that good shot, and you can't take it, you have to charge up, they move while you're charging, you have to realign the shot... No really, have you NEVER aligned a shot?.. Actually, considering the way half you Founders play, it wouldn't surprise me.

I can line up the shot and press the fire button at the same time. It's more difficult than snap shooting, and a bit frustrating as you learn to do it, but it is still quite possible.

[Escef]

Vodrin Thales, on 04 September 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

I can line up the shot and press the fire button at the same time. It's more difficult than snap shooting, and a bit frustrating as you learn to do it, but it is still quite possible.

I can line up a shot and press the fire button too. Can you line up a shot, hold for the charge, and at the same time talk your opponent into standing still and not ruining your shot? 'Cause I sure as hell can't. And when I correct for changes in target movement, guess what? The charge is gone. It's just gone. So now I have to let up and start charging again, with all of the same problems as the first attempted shot.

I also can't tell you how many shots I've "missed" because I released the trigger to fire only to realize the charge was gone. If the charge cycled or had a longer hold time, it would be more usable. But right now it is very difficult, probably more than they were trying for.

I ended up yanking the Gauss from my CN9-A and replacing it with Streaks, Beagle, and an AC2; because it could no longer be the long range sniper I wanted it to be. The original idea was just land a couple of heavy long range shots, relocate, do it again. Worst case, it was a less powerful version of YLW with a longer range gun. The Gauss is just not worth using anymore.

[Joseph Mallan]

Seriously making a Sniper weapon have to charge before it will fire is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. any delay in shooting will ruin the "perfect shot" a sniper requires. Just saying.

[1ShotPaddy]

Poor fella.

With standard armour it could, just about, strip off the armour, in one location, of a moderately armoured medium. Against heavies and assualts, two, in the same location. Not a bad wee support mech, only costing 35 tons to your drop limit. Perhaps with a brawler heavy team you could bring one of these little fellas along to add a bit of range.

With double armour, in order to achieve the same effect, he needs another gauss, another 17 tons, or alternatively, as most MWO snipers have chosen, two ERPPCs, costing only 14 tons.

Quote

The Hollander was introduced in 3054 specifically to carry a Gauss Rifle into combat and act as a sniper.

Mass 35 tons
Speed 86.4 km/h
Armament 1xGauss Rifle

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hollander

Quote

But in a game, no-one wants to walk out and lose their armour in one hit, this isn't COD.

The point is, it's only armour, you're internals should be fine. Only a light mech, hit on the rear torso by a 1xGauss/2xERPPC can be one-shotted with double armour. In all other circumstances, you're internals, at that single location, should be find. It would take another shot on that exact same location from the sniper to kill you, and, if that it indeed happens, you deserve to get killed for allowing an enemy sniper get two shots off at you, at the exact same location.

You're right, this isn't CoD, you actually have 1 free pass when getting hit by a sniper to get behind cover. In CoD, you just die.

Quote

If Gauss damage was doubled, then regardless of the new drawbacks, people would use it in brawls because it could tear the armour off anything.

That's the AC/20's role. A weapon designed to completely decimate an enemies armour or internals. With double armour it should be doing 40 points of damage on a single location. It's a killer alright. However it only does 20, barely scratching a medium mechs average torso armour of 32.

Double the AC/20s damage and it will be the premier brawling weapon, as it was designed to be.


You don't have to double any other weapon system's damge output, they all have their roles. But AC/20s and Gauss Rifles are specifically designed to strip armour in a single hit, they can no longer do that.

SRMS are still a lightweight shotgun-like brawling weapon system.
LRMs are still great indirect fir-support weapons.
Lasers are still great versatile, supplementary weapons.
Smaller ballistics are still great direct fire-support weapon systems.

But the heavy hitters have been adversely affected by double armour, just look what it's done to our poor friend up top, the worst 'mech ever designed.

Edited by 1ShotPaddy, 06 September 2013 - 02:36 PM.

[Steel Claws]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 September 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Seriously making a Sniper weapon have to charge before it will fire is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. any delay in shooting will ruin the "perfect shot" a sniper requires. Just saying.

But we arent supposed to snipe - we are supposed to load UAC 5s, machine guns, or LRMs and run around in the open.

Yes I know the pain. Imagine what Carlos would say. "Yep, the cobra was in my sights, just got to charge up my rifle and shoot him, wait... where did he go?"

[Wolfways]

Escef, on 04 September 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

So far I have to disagree. The charge doesn't hold long enough for me to line up a shot with the Gauss, it is now very difficult to use against a moving enemy, regardless of range.

Since the change i find that brawling with a gauss is slightly harder (close target, hard to miss), but hitting a moving target at long range is much harder (small target, will probably move behind cover before the charge up is done, and releasing the mouse button seems to move the mouse very slightly).
For me the gauss became a brawling weapon