75 replies to this topic

[Pyrrho]

As far as I can tell, they will use "lore" when it suits their needs and then say "we are making our own game *BASED* on lore, but not using it exclusively". Fits all their scenarios.

[Dodger79]

Makes you wonder what "launch" exactly means. And if none of the features promised for release (or even for beta) is included and MWO is presented to a wider audience in it's current state, how long will it live? I wasn't a doomsayer until now, when all available information leads to the conclusion that PGI will just not "launch" anything at "launch"...

edit: and really a "lobby" only _after_ the awful matchmaking? Isn't the sense of a lobby that certain players/groups can drop against each other without countless hours of trial and error?

Edited by Dodger79, 05 September 2013 - 03:20 PM.

[kurexjan]

Pyrrho, on 05 September 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

As far as I can tell, they will use "lore" when it suits their needs and then say "we are making our own game *BASED* on lore, but not using it exclusively". Fits all their scenarios.

Sorry...but what is bad about this. You would think this was exactly what is needed. I'm having a hard time understanding what the issue is.

[Damien Matashy]

Cycleboy, on 05 September 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

"Says double heat sinks were a mistake (according to Jordan Weisman), so they will try to fix that mistake.
Going to create clan tech by the INTENTIONS of what clan tech was about, rather than a mirror of the CBT builds."

This... concerns me. If they kill DHS, I suppose that would make matches last longer. But you'd be running around each other for minutes at a time waiting for heat to drop to get off a 3xML salvo.

The mistake was that they were never 2.0 heat sinks, they were 1.4 heat sinks, except for the ones that were putting your engine those were 2.0. they should have fixed it along time ago but just left it sit there and be wrong

[Kyrie]

I find it somewhat annoying that important developer updates seem to be distributed everywhere but in the forum. Not sure what the point of the "launch" since everything is coming in about a month or two after the date...

[Damien Matashy]

kurexjan, on 05 September 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

Sorry...but what is bad about this. You would think this was exactly what is needed. I'm having a hard time understanding what the issue is.

If you look at a lot of what was posted at the start of development...they told us that they were going to stick to lore as much as possible (the 1:1 timeline...etc) that all went out of the window. all of us under stand that 75 to 80% of the TT rules just don't transfer over. and every time something was mention it, people defended them with the "Beta" line.

[Lindonius]

I think it's quite obvious that someone in the upper echelons of the PGI/IGP hierarchy got major dollar signs in their eyes not long after the founders money came in. All of the things Brian mentions (and more) SHOULD ALREADY BE IN THE GAME. What gets me is that they think that we don't realise what money grabbing mercenaries they've become. Game features, more maps, balancing and bug fixes would be the highest of priorities for any development company with an ounce of integrity. PGI however chose to ignore these in favour of releasing patch after patch of things which make them money......

*A new mech, usually with an accompanying MC only hero, almost every month. The hero is usually available before the regulars are, and they've also taken to releasing the regulars for MC only, for a couple of weeks before they are finally avilable to buy with Cbills.

*Consumables, where the MC only versions were clearly superior to the cbill versions.

*Paints, camos and skins

*Cockpit items. They even stooped to a new low of trying to sell us Christmas items in the middle of July.

*Champion mechs. A subtle way of sucking more of your dollars, as the only advantage that they have after you've mastered them is that they generate GXP quicker. GXP is needed to open availability of modules and can also, with MC, be converted to xp for mech variants that you don't even want to use due to their clown shoes mech levelling system. Which leads on to.....

*Reduction of c-bill rewards. After months and months of plying us with stuff to buy, they then reduce our ability to obtain their monthly new mech chassis with regular game cash. Thus hoping that we reach for the wallet again and buy the mechs with MC instead.

11 days until "launch" and it looks like this game is gonna launch with absolutely NONE of the major features that were promised us WOULD be included by the launch date. No UI, no lobby, no CWF, no voice chat, no game modes, no DX11, no achievements system (etc etc.....)

But hey it's OK! We do have ANOTHER shiny new hero mech to buy! \o/ And on launch day, joy of joys! The ORION is available! Why not buy with MC if you can't wait to grind out the cbills my friends! Buy camos for your new mech! Buy cockpit items!

Buy EVERYTHING and don't worry about dropping your new purchases into the same boring old deathmatch slug fest that we've been running since closed beta because hey kids!! !

We're still working on that.

[Peiper]

Cycleboy, on 05 September 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

"Says double heat sinks were a mistake (according to Jordan Weisman), so they will try to fix that mistake.
Going to create clan tech by the INTENTIONS of what clan tech was about, rather than a mirror of the CBT builds."

This... concerns me. If they kill DHS, I suppose that would make matches last longer. But you'd be running around each other for minutes at a time waiting for heat to drop to get off a 3xML salvo.

Also, exactly WHO are you getting the true intentions of Clan tech from????

That Guy, on 05 September 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

secondly: HEATSINKS
my worst fears have been confirmed. PGI knowingly and willing are screwing newplayers and game balance. I have been railing since DHS were implemented to properly balance them so that SHS still had a role in the game, beyond being throw away newbie trap tech. in a competitive, skill based multiplayer game, it is not acceptable to intentionally handycap someone like that. this is not some stat based MMO like (most MMOs) or world of tanks

but no. its intentional.

I'll try to channel my inner Bryan Eckman and see if I can sort out what he's saying here, without editorializing. I will purposely put away the criticism cannon in order to keep it civil. (no REAL lobbies??? what? cough...)

Here's my interpretation of the double heat sink and clan tech comments. Bryan says that Jordan Weisman said double heat sinks were screwed up. (Jordan directed/has been behind battletech/mechwarrior through many of its incarnations and the prime-mover for adding new clan technology to the game - which, btw, was first introduced in the Battletech Centers before being brought to the tabletop.) The problem with clan double heat sinks (2 slots, 2 heat, 1 ton vs. 1 slot, 1 ton, 1 heat per ton dissipation) is that they INVALIDATED many of the mechs that came before it. They were TOO GOOD, and in the history of battletech, they've made it so clan tech is/was ALWAYS far superior to inner sphere technology, even a hundred years later. That ONE piece of gear is why mechs like the Fafnir were created - huge damage potential from twin heavy gauss rifles without having to worry about heat. Meanwhile, the clans create HEAVY lasers, which have horrible heat-to-damage ratios, but who cares, because we have double heat sinks???

So, from what I interpreted from Bryan's comments today was that they are trying to find a way to make Clan Tech superior, and to fit with the INTENTIONS of Jordan Weisman, without making it broken. I will, reluctantly, agree that clan double heat sinks are game-breaking. Now, in lore, Clan mechwarriors are on average superior to inner sphere pilots by virtue of their being raised from childhood, with attrition, to be mechwarriors rather than drafted and/or entering the academy out of high school. (Clans consider age 30 past their prime, vs. inner sphere pilots who are ancient and still kicking arse.) BUT, because there's no way to limit or buff the skills of PLAYERS in MWO, the only adjustments to be made are in the technology available to reflect the disparity. What the MWO devs see in terms of a balanced game between clanners and inner sphere pilots/matches, we don't know. And even if they allow IS pilots access to clan mechs, HOW do they make it so our entire current stable of mechs isn't just invalidated by the purchase of a Timberwolf or Warhawk? Some would say: tough luck! That's the way of real warfare. You don't take a Matilda into a fight against a King Tiger. (In fact, you don't even take 5 Matildas... You call in a flight of P47's!)

So, it will be interesting to see how they handle clan technology. Perhaps we'll get a hint of what is to come from part II and III of the interview!

[kurexjan]

Damien Matashy, on 05 September 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

If you look at a lot of what was posted at the start of development...they told us that they were going to stick to lore as much as possible (the 1:1 timeline...etc) that all went out of the window. all of us under stand that 75 to 80% of the TT rules just don't transfer over. and every time something was mention it, people defended them with the "Beta" line.

I find your explanation even more confusing than the earlier one. It is still not clear if you are mad because they are sticking with lore, not sticking to lore, or trying to find a balance between game play and lore. Also, who is this "all of us" that you are referring to?

Peiper, on 05 September 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

I'll try to channel my inner Bryan Eckman and see if I can sort out what he's saying here, without editorializing. I will purposely put away the criticism cannon in order to keep it civil. (no REAL lobbies??? what? cough...)

I believe this much better outlines what Bryan was saying about DHS and the introduction of Clan Tech.

[That Guy]

Lindonius, you really did not listen to the cast, or have any understanding of software development. you attribute the lack of new features in favor of content to malice, rather than reality.

PGI has been working all along on these new features. they have taken this long because that stuff is hard, complex and time consuming with a small crew. additionally there have been many large bumps in the road that have virtually ground engineering (programmers) development to a standstill (things like the "HUD bug", rewriting netcode, HSR implementation, and HSR repair, trying multiple times to get DX11 working, and others). if this **** was easy it would have been done.

the mech modelers, texture artist, and such dont deal with that stuff that you want. so, learn more cry less



PEIPER
yes i did understand that portion of the interview. my major panty twister is the fact he says SHS are fine as is. As you say, Clan DHS completely invalidate everything that came before them. but the problem, that is exactly what is happening NOW. DHS, specifically engine DHS, have completely invalidated SHS. the external DHS are fine and balanced. you need to pay tonnage and slots to use them. but not only are the engine HS far better than external, they are "free" (no crits/tonnage). for a SHS equipped 250 engine mech to get the same heat capacity as a DHS mech, it needs to pay 10 tons/slots.

any-standard mech that has ANY SHS basically gets that tonnage back and vastly increased heat efficiency when upgrading to DHS. its just stupidly unblanced

I dont have anything against DHS being "better" per say.
a much better and more balanced system would be ALL engine HS have the same value, regardless of the external type.

lets use these numbers:

Engine HS: 1.5
external SHS: 1
external DHS: 2 (or even more if PGI really wants to keep DHS as obscenely OP!)

most stock mechs come with 10 base HS. if those are 1.5 it will count as 15. under MWO heat rules, thats quite playable, but it still requires some ton and crit investment for more efficiency. because under the current system it is VERY hard to play with just the default 10, and if up-against doubles, its plain unplayable. 10 SHS cant support 2 medium lasers on a standard temp map! thats just.... just go out and play with SHS on a hot map and tell me thats "working as intended".

and the part that REALLY ****** me off is the fact the we, the community, WARNED THEM that the "free 20" would break the game before it was even implemented. hell, initially they sort of listened by haivng all DHS at 1.4. we told them after DHS came it that they were still totally OP, and needed adjustment (besides those idiots that were constanly calling for full 2.0 DHS)
then they ****** it up. they ****** it up. they ****** it up. they ****** it up. they. ******. it. up.

because they wanted too. it was intentional. ANd i have been bitching about it ever sense. i have sent probably a dozen PMs to the devs, support tickets, forum posts, and even confronting devs in game about this issue.

PGI have managed to defend their ideas and design decisions on just about everything elce from coolant, to 3pv, to stacking penalties. but this one is just completely undefendable. I would love to listen to their justification as to why they think SHS are "Fine". because they are NOT

and i was so calm when i started typing. so yeah, Im not yelling at anyone reading, unless you happen to be Bryan Ekman, or someone else on the design team. sorry

Edited by That Guy, 05 September 2013 - 04:53 PM.

[Corwin Maxwell]

This will be there Launch announcement..."Hurray for MWO guys, Thanks for coming at your own expense to our launch party!..
Ok its time for our BIG announcement and here it is folks....MWO is "Launching" on Xbox...though the game is still in "Beta". Also were announcing a new mech package for $200 dollars you can have...wait for it............you guessed it!!!!...the Unseen Revealed package which includes the Urbanmech, Wasp, Rifleman, and last but not least...Charger!!!!. Again folks thanks for coming out! We'll see ya'll all again at our next "Launch event" in 2015 when we annouce PS4 support....ooops kinda leaked that one there...must be to much beer!..oh well's

Edited by Corwin Maxwell, 05 September 2013 - 04:21 PM.

[Pyrrho]

kurexjan, on 05 September 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

Sorry...but what is bad about this. You would think this was exactly what is needed. I'm having a hard time understanding what the issue is.

I didn't say anything was bad or good. The hard time you may be having is in that you have inserted a false intent in your reading of my post. It is what they have done and will continue to do (use lore when it fits, and not lore when it doesn't). My comment was not meant as an explanation, just an observation.

[Lindonius]

That Guy, on 05 September 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

Lindonius, you really did not listen to the cast, or have any understanding of software development. you attribute the lack of new features in favor of content to malice, rather than reality.

PGI has been working all along on these new features. they have taken this long because that stuff is hard, complex and time consuming with a small crew. additionally there have been many large bumps in the road that have virtually ground engineering (programmers) development to a standstill (things like the "HUD bug", rewriting netcode, HSR implementation, and HSR repair, trying multiple times to get DX11 working, and others). if this **** was easy it would have been done.

the mech modelers, texture artist, and such dont deal with that stuff that you want. so, learn more cry less

Not buying it. Sorry. I accepted that excuse 6 months ago but not now. It's been OVER A YEAR.

And I don't attribute the abject failure to provide anything in the way of new features to malice, I attribute it to the pursuit of the all powerful dollar.

Edited by Lindonius, 05 September 2013 - 04:33 PM.

[SoHxPaladin]

Lindonius, on 05 September 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Not buying it. Sorry. I accepted that excuse 6 months ago but not now. It's been OVER A YEAR.

And I don't attribute the abject failure to provide anything in the way of new features to malice, I attribute it to the pursuit of the all powerful dollar.

Dude, everyone knows that it takes some skill and time to make things work correctly. It is not our fault that they have taken over a year to add actuall CONTENT to this game. Content is not new mechs and new maps only; it includes the ability to have structured drops, the groundwork for CWF, and introduction of house and merc corps groupings *to actually mean something*, new game modes, and fixes to base problems like say HIT REGISTRATION/CRASHES.

Dont try to peddle the "it takes time and skill" BULL**** cuz it aint flyin "That Guy"

From what this community has seen, PGI will continue to lie and change their timetables while raking in the cash from hero mechs and other tidbits while they try to fix these issues with a limited crew. They have had over a year to hire some folks to put some manhours into fixing these problems and creating the things that were promised to the "Founders"

PGI, guys, I personally like what you have, but dammit, get your head out of your ***** and start churning these things out. You wouldnt sit on a gold mine, you would mine the damn thing with the proper tools and manpower. Why cant you do that?

[That Guy]

No one likes the fact that PGI has taken forever to get these features done, but the truth of my statement still stands.

unless Russ, Bryan or some other developer comes in here and says: "LOL, we've just been messing with you! we haven't been working on ****! just COCAIN AND HOOKERS BABY!" then your whole premise of "PGI is lazy/must work faster!" really dosnt stand. They are doing their best. and if their best isnt good enough... well, we just have to live with that.


edit: apparently Columbia's #1 export is a naughty word!

Edited by That Guy, 05 September 2013 - 05:31 PM.

[SoHxPaladin]

That Guy, on 05 September 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

No one likes the fact that PGI has taken forever to get these features done, but the truth of my statement still stands.

unless Russ, Bryan or some other developer comes in here and says: "LOL, we've just been messing with you! we haven't been working on ****! just COCAIN AND HOOKERS BABY!" then your whole premise of "PGI is lazy/must work faster!" really dosnt stand. They are doing their best. and if their best isnt good enough... well, we just have to live with that.


edit: apparently Columbia's #1 export is a naughty word!

Yes, I implied that they weren't doing jack ****...You're right.

NO, what I said is that they obviously do not have the manpower to do what they said they would do, in the time they wanted to do it. I understand that they may be doing their best, but if they are truly a cooporation that cares about a quality product, then these things that they are still having problems with would not still be issues.

[Dodger79]

That Guy, on 05 September 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

No one likes the fact that PGI has taken forever to get these features done, but the truth of my statement still stands.

unless Russ, Bryan or some other developer comes in here and says: "LOL, we've just been messing with you! we haven't been working[...]

Sadly, this seems to be true according to Bryan statement in his apology-thread that too many people were an vacation to have a proper communication. Why on earth do devs go on vacation so short before "launch"? And then saying "soory, at launch all promised features will not be in the game, we just had not enough time..." is a slap in the face of everybody who supported this game with money so we all can play a Mechwarrior-game with CW and all the other promised features at launch. Remember: beta-times are over soon, no more excuses for missing content etc.

[MischiefSC]

I'm done castigating PGI over 3PV and the like. I actually find the most recent patch pretty decent. Seeing a lot more variety on the field than I have in a very long time. While I don't think Ghost Heat was anything like an elegant solution at least it's forcing people to branch out.

As a side note though it just reinforces why PGI does not and seemingly never will provide the same caliber of consumer experience that AAA games like SC or, well, most games do. Data, or subscriber telemetry to use industry terms, is not 'the truth'. All it tells you is what players do because they HAVE to, not because the WANT to. PGI is exactly and precisely why most software or entertainment businesses have communications/MBA folks in charge. Having coders make decisions on game development for providing the product people want to buy is a very, very iffy idea. Sales, marketing and communication is a specific skill set. Without that skill set you're hamstringing yourself.

There's a lot of amazing content in MWO. Mostly art assets to be honest, visual and audio. The combat is, in a lot of ways, very engaging. It's got some issues but they're workable. The fact that PGI comes across as absolutely hating their customers and holding everyone who gives them money for the game in utter, numbing contempt, exceeded only by the absolute dismissal of any and all feedback from their customers.

I work in an industry that can see a swing in billions of dollars over a single quarter based on customer satisfaction in the products and services we provide. An engineer or coders opinion on what is a good idea or bad idea is irrelevant compared to what people want to pay for. You can make excellent decisions that get ahead of the market and provide a product that consumers didn't know they wanted until you provided it but that takes some true developmental and marketing genius to pull off - it's often more about how it's sold than the product itself.

MWO could be pulling in $1 million to $2 million a month, again and again, like SC is. Same sort of customer base, not like one is more affluent than the other. They don't and won't not because of the quality of the game (which has some strong points to recommend it) but because of how they handle their community and aim their game development.

At this point I don't see a fix. Still though, it's a fun way to kill time until X:R comes out in November.

[GalaxyBluestar]

this is so sad, reviewers will kill this game. i'm guessing a lot of people feel like this.

[Tezcatli]

Well to be fair even World of Tanks didn't launch with it's version of clan wars. But it feel like such a disappointment and a missed opportunity on their part to garner some positive interest.

Edited by Tezcatli, 05 September 2013 - 06:41 PM.