185 replies to this topic

[Devils Advocate]

Man this thread is filled with trolls and spider pilots. Hit detection is still borked but it seems more borked up close than far away. At 600 meters I can nail a spider moving at speed but up close I'll visually see my Gauss rounds connect and do no damage. If a spider gets all up in your business your lasers and ballistics become almost useless. Aiming doesn't matter much if your rounds bounce off.

[K0M3D14N]

Okay okay I see what a lot of you are saying and I will respond to this:

The Commando is not a scout. The Commando is not a scout. The Commando is not a scout. The Commando is not a scout.

THE COMMANDO IS NOT A SCOUT.

Being a Light 'Mech does not automatically mean 'u r a skowt lol go find da enemeez.' The Commando was designed as a front-line (wait for it) STRIKER, not as a Scout. The Raven? Yes, it was designed as a Scout. Sarna's description even says pretty clearly that any situation requiring a Raven to engage in combat is, by default, a failure. The Spider? Hey, look. A scout. Designed to be a scout and harasser.

The Jenner? NOT A SCOUT. The Jenner was designed to be a hunter-killer. The Commando was designed to be a front-line striker. Neither of those things is a scout. At all. CAN they? Yes. Are there other chassis that do that job much, much better? You bet your chassis there are.

By all means, I welcome any of you to take out a COM-3A and rack up kills and damage by just zerging a bunch of assault 'Mechs in the face. Unless the other Company is entirely braindead, you will be actually dead. Very fast. And likely in many many pieces if they can even find that much.

OKAY I'M DONE HERE.

Commando. AWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY.

/dons cape

/runs away

/IS SURE TO SERPENTINE

[xenoglyph]

Devils Advocate, on 07 September 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

Man this thread is filled with trolls and spider pilots. Hit detection is still borked but it seems more borked up close than far away. At 600 meters I can nail a spider moving at speed but up close I'll visually see my Gauss rounds connect and do no damage. If a spider gets all up in your business your lasers and ballistics become almost useless. Aiming doesn't matter much if your rounds bounce off.

Everyone knows that Spiders are jacked. The idea though that Lights have no business brawling with and killing bad Assault pilots is what has everyone posting.

Edited by xenoglyph, 07 September 2013 - 06:30 PM.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

Devils Advocate, on 07 September 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

Man this thread is filled with trolls and spider pilots.  Hit detection is still borked but it seems more borked up close than far away.  At 600 meters I can nail a spider moving at speed but up close I'll visually see my Gauss rounds connect and do no damage.  If a spider gets all up in your business your lasers and ballistics become almost useless.  Aiming doesn't matter much if your rounds bounce off.

you only see what you want to see, who cares about physics + different ranges. You should lead the same at all ranges huh?

Edited by Funkadelic Mayhem, 07 September 2013 - 07:06 PM.

[mongrel]

These threads get so old. The guys who pilot the big nasties complaining about how OP lights are. Like it has been mentioned countless times start trying to play the lights. Its not easy Very few have high KDR's I love my lights some games I can do okay but many times I get smoked without even getting 100 points damage. What I would love to see just once is a thread acknowledging the hard work & skill we have acquired rather than the hate. Many of us do try & fulfill the scouting roll. but in truth 75% of the time it falls on deaf ears. Believe me my KDR's are much better in my heavier mechs. But I love the lights. Death spirals are powerful but do you guys stop for a second & do the math. Your facing equal tonnage many times less tonnage but a better tactic. Even scarier is when mediums do a death spiral. You might last a few seconds.

[Johnny Reb]

I run everything (1 of each mech mastered minus Orion) Lights are fine, in my opinion, need more scouting perks, but they die fast, spider excluded. Still as a general rule scouts and other fast mechs take the legs first, then it is game over, you might not get credit for the kill but you know you ended that guy!

[Qrbaza]

Im not complaining about lights here as i can handle them one on one ot two in any mech. It is however clear to me that lights are not brawler class but rather scout class with hit and run tactics not circle around god mode if against assaut mech. It takes no skills to rush at assault mech and circle him to death. But it takes some large amount of skills to cleverly aproach enemy mech do some crushing damage and run away while taking no or minimal damage. Thats why people dont hit and run but rather circle.

Most of the time lights are circling so close to me that is hard to aim at them if they are breathing on my legs so i see lights raming against my legs or obsticles withou slowing them down all the time. So i think main problem is lack of knockback. If i would ram him in most cases i do to slow him down he should be knocked back and than is game over for him. This is how you fix lights circle of death as light pilot would stay away from you to avoid being knocked back. This would improve assault/heavy vs. light battle in many cases...

[Wascot]

I find a well piloted light mech as annoying as the next person, but this is why a 12-man group is composed of different weight classes of mechs. I've encountered a handful of really good light mech pilots that gave me trouble on my Cicada (they always have a tendency to multiply), but so long as I stick relatively close to my mates then they have no choice but to disengage less they overextend and get destroyed. It's the same if you're a heavy/assault and aren't too comfortable in dealing against light mechs. Just stick to the main group and hope friendly lights/(fast)meds are nearby to drive them off. I take great glee in chasing off or outright destroying pesky lights harassing my mates if I'm actually nearby patrolling the area.

The real annoying part of actually providing close anti-light support is when my so called mates end up doing more damage to me trying to hit the light. Gotten entire rear armors stripped clean when I'm trying to do my job so please do learn to hold your fire.

I've found that good light pilots only stick around if they feel confident they can take you out or have the numbers advantage. The former doesn't happen if you can consistently land your shots (with the exception of the spider) and the latter begs the question of why they have the numbers advantage to begin with.

[dario03]

Imperius, on 07 September 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

Every time someone says lights are fine and no changes "collisions" need to happen and it's my "skill" that is the issue. Is people telling me no the game is fine as is and collisions should not be added to the game. Some have said yet they agree collisions should be back. Most keep attacking my "skill" like they know how good/bad I am. It's just trolls trying to fight cause they have nothing better to do.

That's because as the game is now lights are fine. Collisions would nerf the lights but lights are not OP without collisions. I wouldn't be opposed to collisions coming back but not in the way they were before. So in other words none of that get within 30m of a light, magically knock it down, bigger mech suffers no damage or any downside at all, turns around and blasts light.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

I have no problem killing spiders now that they worked on hit detection, and I've got several previous threads calling for the banning of spiders. The problem I have now is that medium mechs can't compete.. and this game is nothing but lights and Heavies or higher.

[Ensaine]

If we had any REAL MM that worked, we'd have only so many lights per match.

[stjobe]

Qrbaza, on 08 September 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

Im not complaining about lights here as i can handle them one on one ot two in any mech.

Yes you are complaining that circling lights are "god mode" even though you can take on two at a time and win.

Qrbaza, on 08 September 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

It is however clear to me that lights are not brawler class but rather scout class

There is only one role in MWO currently, and that's "do as much damage as you can". Anyone claiming there are other roles either don't understand the XP/CB reward system or are lying.

Qrbaza, on 08 September 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

with hit and run tactics not circle around god mode if against assaut mech.

"Circle around god mode" speaks volumes about your skills. If I try that against any semi-competent assault pilot, I die. Circling only works against bad pilots that haven't learned how to counter it.

Qrbaza, on 08 September 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

It takes no skills to rush at assault mech and circle him to death.

Not against the bads, no. But against bads, no skill is ever needed no matter what weight class you're in. And as I said above, circling a competent assault is death, because once you're in front of their guns, they will hit and they will kill you.

Qrbaza, on 08 September 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

But it takes some large amount of skills to cleverly aproach enemy mech do some crushing damage and run away while taking no or minimal damage.

It also doesn't pay. At all. Kills, assists (especially Savior assists) is what you want, and you don't get those by breaking off every engagement and letting others do the killing.

Qrbaza, on 08 September 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

Thats why people dont hit and run but rather circle.

Circling only occurs in two situations: A bad light pilot or a bad assault pilot. In the case of the bad light, he'll soon be dead, and in the case of the bad assault, he'll soon be dead. Don't be a bad pilot.

Qrbaza, on 08 September 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

Most of the time lights are circling so close to me that is hard to aim at them

And there's the rub. You're having a hard time hitting lights, so instead of trying to improve you come to the forums to whine and try to get lights nerfed. Grow a pair, look at how good pilots counter lights and try to do the same. It's not hard, you just have to accept that you're not the greatest MechWarrior alive first.

Qrbaza, on 08 September 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

if they are breathing on my legs so i see lights raming against my legs or obsticles withou slowing them down all the time. So i think main problem is lack of knockback. If i would ram him in most cases i do to slow him down he should be knocked back and than is game over for him. This is how you fix lights circle of death as light pilot would stay away from you to avoid being knocked back. This would improve assault/heavy vs. light battle in many cases...

No, you fix "circle of death" by learning how to counter it; once you do, you'll never be bothered by circling lights ever again.

The main problem isn't that we don't have knockdowns, the main problem is we have a lot of pilots that run assaults with load-outs totally unsuited to fighting light 'mechs, with no experience or skill in fighting light 'mechs, that don't have any inclination to learn how to do just that, and no will to change their load-out, that come to the forums complaining lights are OP and should be nerfed.

That is a much, much greater problem than not having knockdowns.

[Wolfways]

stjobe, on 08 September 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

"Circle around god mode" speaks volumes about your skills. If I try that against any semi-competent assault pilot, I die. Circling only works against bad pilots that haven't learned how to counter it.

Please tell me how to counter it.

[justjay]

"when you have 4 lights do this might as well ALt+F4 and go youtube or play a better game."

when you have 4 anythings on you when you're alone, you might as well do that.

'waaah, what do you mean being outplayed gets me killed?!'


...and light pilots still try circling? lulz.

[Theodor Kling]

stjobe, on 08 September 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

The main problem isn't that we don't have knockdowns, the main problem is we have a lot of pilots that run assaults with load-outs totally unsuited to fighting light 'mechs, with no experience or skill in fighting light 'mechs, that don't have any inclination to learn how to do just that, and no will to change their load-out, that come to the forums complaining lights are OP and should be nerfed.

That is a much, much greater problem than not having knockdowns.

Yep,and that's why I still circle sometimes. ( also I am not good enough to constantly stay in an asaults rear for the entire time, one on one of course).
One of my most fun duels was against a dual gauss Jäger in my COM-2D. He was good enough to hit and instant kill me with his 3rd shot, but was down to red internals on one side and yellow CT internals by then. Why? because it was a dual gauss no backup weapons build. Even before last patch hardly good for a fast target at close range.
The slow rate of fire and limited ammo means you must make every shot count. Same goes for ERPPC centered builds. There it's not ammo but heat. I once nearly got a kill on a stalker who had already red internals from overheating by the time I chewed through his back armour.. then came along someone with an AC20 and stole that kill

Edited by Theodor Kling, 08 September 2013 - 05:47 AM.

[Imperius]

stjobe you're oblivious to the imbalance in the game and you're trying to defend what little broken advantage you have because once it's gone so is your "elite status" you keep giving yourself will go with it. This so called skill you say everyone lacks isn't even the issue that I have been discussing. I kill plenty of lights, but since there is no collisions this "brawling light" trend is getting out of hand and I have seen and influx in light mechs also spiders (another known issue). I would say a normal drop if role warfare existed would be, 4 Lights, 4 Mediums, and 4 Heavies equaling 12 mechs and a balanced team.

Again lights should be able to kill all mechs, but not be able to run though a whole team as standard practice. ECM is part of this issue as well. ECM + Speed + No Collisions = Broken Warfare and not Role Warfare. You are safe from any missiles. I think if an ECM mech gets hit ECM should turn off for 10 seconds with a 2 second engage time (enough time for one volley of missiles to reach a target if it is out in the open, if the mech is hit again in that 2 second window the 10 sec timer will go up again. Not just PPC's if they even knock out ECM anymore. This would force people with ECM to play smart. An added visual effect to the mech with off-line ECM could be added light shorting out electricity.

Edited by Imperius, 08 September 2013 - 06:13 AM.

[Scratx]

Imperius, on 07 September 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

With the lack of collisions and rampant nerfs to all weapons that efficiently kills a light mech the game has become a joke, and ECM is still OP as day one. Congrats on fixing the HSR, now can we get some collisions? When I see a light run into 50 things to circle me and I hit one rock and stop I see a huge issue. What skill is involved in this kind of play? I mean really tell me? when you have 4 lights do this might as well ALt+F4 and go youtube or play a better game. All I see it buff after buff to a light mech. THEY ARE SCOUTS!!! NOT BRAWLERS LIKE YOU HAVE MADE THEM PGI. FIX THIS NOW!

Ahem.

Jenner : http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Jenner ( Guerrilla Fighter )

Quote

Designed in 2784, the fact that the Jenner was the sole property of the Draconis Combine was a source of pride, however this honor would later be tainted by the 'Mech's prominent role in the Kentares Massacre. Even after the destruction of its Diplan 'Mechyards factory in 2848, the Jenner remained a common sight among the regiments of the DCMS until Luthien Armor Works reopened a line on Luthien in 3046^[3]. The Jenner's primarily laser armament and phenomenal speed helped to make the the 'Mech extremely well suited as a guerrilla fighter. The design has a top speed of 118.8 km/h. This mobility is further enhanced by the addition of five Smithson Lifter jump jets, giving the Jenner a jumping distance of 150 meters. The primary downfall of this 'Mech is also one of its assets: with such a heavy reliance on energy weapons, the Jenner is woefully light in the area of heat sinks.^[4]

Commando : http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Commando (Hit and Run, Scout Hunter)

Quote

As early as 2463 Coventry Metal Works (then known as Coventry Defense Conglomerate) introduced with the COM-1A Commando its second own developed BattleMech for the LCAF and one of the first ever, that was suited for reconnaissance. Much lighter and faster than their precursors, though they still used primitive BattleMech technology, Commandos were able to destroy much heavier Kuritan Gladiators during the first large-scale battle between BattleMechs in 2475 on Nox.^[3]. But since its large laser caused several problems and other 'Mechs were introduced (like the Wasp in 2464 and the Stinger in 2479), that were better equipped for scouting and even mounted Jump Jets, the Commando's profile was radically changed with the introduction of the sophisticated COM-2D variant in 2486, that exchanged the laser weaponry with short range missiles and turned the machine into a striker. With four tons the armor is too light to allow a stand-up fight with heavier enemies, but it excels at hit-and-run tactics and as a scout hunter.^[4]
The Commando became popular among the LCAF forces and nearly 600 years later it is still mainly in Lyran use. Especially during the years of the Star League the Commonwealth went to great pains to keep the Mech solely in Lyran hands. Finally with the Federated Commonwealth came the distribution of the BattleMech when the Commando was chosen as the standard light BattleMech for the AFFC next to the Valkyrie and after the upgrade to the COM-5S model in 3050 Vandenberg Mechanized Industries was allowed to produce the old COM-2D for the TDF.^[5] Furthermore the Marian Hegemony deploys the Rocket Launcher packed COM-4H and the Word of Blake produced its own variant (COM-7B) during its occupation of Coventry from 3068 to 3074.

Raven : http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Raven ( Electronic Warfare )

Quote

(Partial quote) The Raven's job is first and foremost to provide electronic warfare and countermeasure support to other units; any mission in which the 'Mech is forced into a combat role is seen as a failure. It sports the most advanced electronic warfare equipment in the Inner Sphere with its introduction, all produced by Apple Churchill: a Guardian ECM blankets friendly units with electronic jamming, while the combination of Beagle Probe, Target Acquisition Gear and Narc Missile Beacon locates hidden units and calls down accurate artillery fire. A Hermes 210 XL Engine, four and a half tons of Ferro-Fibrous armor and CASE storage system saves on weight, provides good armoring and a respectable maximum speed of 97.2 km/h and allows the 'Mech to survive combat encounters until reinforcements can arrive.^[2][5]

Spider : http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Spider ( Fast Strike )

Quote

The Spider was originally designed by Newhart Industries as a 'Mech to be used by SLDF commando forces. Following the fall of the Star League, the Free Worlds League acquired the plans for the 'Mech and Nimakachi began producing it. The League was not interested in the design, so they began exporting it to an interested Draconis Combine. Eventually, they also began to produce it on their Lapida II plant. The 'Mech gets its name from the unique pattern on its chest that radiates from the Medium Laser mounts in its center torso. The Spider is one of the most maneuverable BattleMechs ever conceived. It has a ground speed that is comparable to a Locust and can out jump either the vaunted Wasp or Stinger light 'Mechs. Spiders are generally used as fast strike forces to hit an enemy's rear with lightning speed.^[2][3]

You were saying about them being scouts, OP?

[Foxfire]

Qrbaza, on 08 September 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

Im not complaining about lights here as i can handle them one on one ot two in any mech. It is however clear to me that lights are not brawler class but rather scout class with hit and run tactics not circle around god mode if against assaut mech. It takes no skills to rush at assault mech and circle him to death. But it takes some large amount of skills to cleverly aproach enemy mech do some crushing damage and run away while taking no or minimal damage. Thats why people dont hit and run but rather circle.

Most of the time lights are circling so close to me that is hard to aim at them if they are breathing on my legs so i see lights raming against my legs or obsticles withou slowing them down all the time. So i think main problem is lack of knockback. If i would ram him in most cases i do to slow him down he should be knocked back and than is game over for him. This is how you fix lights circle of death as light pilot would stay away from you to avoid being knocked back. This would improve assault/heavy vs. light battle in many cases...

That wouldn't fix light circles.. it would just weed out the pretenders. Granted, the better light pilots don't do much circling, or do it in unique ways if they do so.

[Wolfways]

Scratx, on 08 September 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

Ahem. Jenner : http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Jenner ( Guerrilla Fighter ) Commando : http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Commando (Hit and Run, Scout Hunter) Raven : http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Raven ( Electronic Warfare ) Spider : http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Spider ( Fast Strike ) You were saying about them being scouts, OP?

lol you just kind of proved his point.
If you are the fastest mech in the group you are the scout, no matter if you're a light or an assault. So naturally lights are the best scouts.
No lights are scout-only, though neither are any of them brawlers. To me at least guerrilla/fast strikers/hit and runs means you do not give the enemy a chance to fire back. Get in, do damage, get out. Currently in MWO lights can just run around without worrying too much about taking lots of damage. The good pilots are great at taking practically no damage.
Lights should be hit and run strikers.
Mediums should be the brawlers.
Heavies should be heavy weapons support.
Assaults should be...well assaults (or tanks, which in MWO they are not even close).

[Imperius]

Scratx, on 08 September 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

Ahem.

Jenner : http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Jenner ( Guerrilla Fighter )
Commando : http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Commando (Hit and Run, Scout Hunter)
Raven : http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Raven ( Electronic Warfare )
Spider : http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Spider ( Fast Strike )

You were saying about them being scouts, OP?

Guerrilla Warfare: Wars fought with hit-and-run tactics by small groups against an invader

Hmmm. I don't see in the definition anywhere it saying stays out in open and circle strafing without consequence, thanks for helping prove my point.

Guerrilla Warfare suggest lights should have to play smart and use cover and watch their surroundings. Pretty much the same as a scout except they attack when it's smart. That is not the kind of play I see coming out of 90% of the lights in this game.

Wolfways, on 08 September 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

lol you just kind of proved his point.
If you are the fastest mech in the group you are the scout, no matter if you're a light or an assault. So naturally lights are the best scouts.
No lights are scout-only, though neither are any of them brawlers. To me at least guerrilla/fast strikers/hit and runs means you do not give the enemy a chance to fire back. Get in, do damage, get out. Currently in MWO lights can just run around without worrying too much about taking lots of damage. The good pilots are great at taking practically no damage.
Lights should be hit and run strikers.
Mediums should be the brawlers.
Heavies should be heavy weapons support.
Assaults should be...well assaults (or tanks, which in MWO they are not even close).

Just posted the same thing you just said and then saw your post.

Edited by Imperius, 08 September 2013 - 07:18 AM.