30 replies to this topic

[Tiger Shark]

Not sure if this is just within the last few weeks with all the tweaks, but it seems now (as it was a few months ago), that which ever team brought the most ECM tends to win in a PUG drop.

The PUG queues needs to be balanced in terms of light ECMs and Atlas D-DC ECMs.  It is a huge advantage to nullify the other team's LRMs and approach on the larger maps undetected.  Especially with 12v12, the larger lances dropping in on a couple of mediums protecting the flank means immediate numbers disadvantage.  Since PUGs do not have voice chat, others on the team won't know until the team mates are dead then able to type a message.  By which time, they are already 2 or 3 mechs down.

Anyone else seeing this in the last month or so?

Edited by Tiger Shark, 08 September 2013 - 06:42 AM.

[Revorn]

Everyone seeing this. Well everyone exept PGI.

[Snegtag]

To be as clear as mud--yes and no. ECM helps a bad team but lack does not always hinder a good team. When I use my Atlas D-DC the problem I have is keeping people in the ECM bubble the heavlies run ahead and then it doesn't matter. Or they run in front of me and stop blocking the AC-20. But in PUG its all luck of the draw. I scan the mechs at the begining and work a plan and try to get it across--50% chance. When I'm not in the Atlas Target 1 & 2 for me is LRMs and ECM mechs.
I lost a PUG drop with 3 Atlas D-DC and no ECM on the other side. I was in a heavy and the Atlas lance went oppisite ways and then the team scattered.
Anything can be countered but it communication that makes it hard in a PUG drop. Some hot keys would be nice--

[Tiger Shark]

Team work beats ECMs D-DC for sure, but since we don't have voice chat, that makes it a bit harder.
I think the few times where a PUG team beats another PUG teams with multiple ECMs stands out in our mind is that because majority of the time, it's usually the other way round.

I have been in games where the D-DC just goes off base capping or going off on their own or a Raven or Spider running so far ahead of the main body where they get no support etc... Where it simply didn't help the team.

Because of the unpredictability of a PUG queue, ECM amplifies good or bad team work. Which means that a balance of ECMs in a PUG drop is even more important.

Edited by Tiger Shark, 07 September 2013 - 08:19 AM.

[Donnie Silveray]

Generally a single or even a pair of ECM isn't a terribly big deal as much of the above have mentioned, it's mostly skill in how you handle it. The unfortunate part is the general neutralization of LRMs, but I'm pretty sure if anyone sees a D-DC, they primary it right away.

Really the worst ECM deal I've seen lately was like... 4-5 D-DCs and I'm pretty sure the ECM was the least of my problems with all those 100 ton mechs rolling about...

[scJazz]

We have had the Atlas DDC in the Trial mech selection in the recent past and currently we have the Raven 3L. I'm sure that is skewing our observations about PUGging and ECM.

[Steel Claws]

Both sides can take ECM so if one team does and the other doesn't - does that make it a problem with the game or a fail for the people picking their mechs..... Just saying.

[Barantor]

It sucks the most to have someone bring a catapult to a match where the opposing team has a lot of ECM, effectively you have made that heavy mech invalid as the main component of catapults is LRMs for the most part. This means the ECM team has a heavy that is effective and can change the match dramatically.

Of course this is all under the assumption that the team with ECM actually stays in the bubbles to nullify the use of the enemy LRMs....

It is why I started carrying tag on all my catapults.

[Jiang Wei]

ECM has been ruining the game balance and sucking the fun out of this game since it was added to the game. Its even more noticable in the premades. Players ahve been telling the developers about it for many moons.... still the ignorance continues.

[Steel Claws]

Jiang Wei, on 07 September 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

ECM has been ruining the game balance and sucking the fun out of this game since it was added to the game. Its even more noticable in the premades. Players ahve been telling the developers about it for many moons.... still the ignorance continues.

"wahhhh I cant shoot my lrms from the back of the map without being seen". I repeat, All ECM does is give questionable cover from missile locks period. Its so easy to break through by anyone who has a clue about what they are doing. It is almost totally ineffective against Bap equipped streak boats any more (and don't tell me it is cause I'll stick you in a raven and chase you around the map in a Kintaro a few times). Sure it might make it harder to target for direct fire mechs but that benefit isn't that much. The only mechs really effected by ECM anymore are LRM boats. Stop trying to waste dev time on non issues and learn how to play the game or go play tetris.I'd be willing to make you a deal. I'd agree that LRM locks shouldn't be effected by ECM and be like it was in MW4 if LRM rides had to get a line of sight lock and could no longer get locks from other mechs just like they did in MW4. The premades may win but it isn't ECM and coms or any of the other things people say it is that gets them the win. They win because they A. play the game more. B. use team work. C. Understand the game mechanics better.

Edited by Steel Claws, 07 September 2013 - 09:59 AM.

[Tiger Shark]

The problem is less about LRMs, but more the combination of the bigger maps + PUGs without voice chat + ECM.
Usually that means if a friendly lance is is caught in a fight with a bigger ECM lance, friendly team mates wouldn't find out about it until it's over. By then, they might be down multiple mechs.

[The Boz]

Counters missiles harder than AMS. Does other things.
Yet there are still people on these boards that say ECM is balanced and that we should all L2P.

[Steel Claws]

The Boz, on 07 September 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

Counters missiles harder than AMS. Does other things.
Yet there are still people on these boards that say ECM is balanced and that we should all L2P.

Look, you have been a member of this community since 8/30/2013 - which means you haven't been around a week yet. I brought up the whole ECM - win conversation to several people I team with regularly that have been playing this game as long as I have, about a year now, and they were astounded that anyone could actually believe that ECM was OP still. Several were laughing their rears off about it. Trust me when I tell you that most of us who play this game regularly don't give ECM a second thought because we don't think of it as even a necessary thing to have. None of us were using it last night at all. The only mech I run regularly that is equipped with ECM is a raven because it is sometimes usefull as a scout to be able to set back and observe the enemy without them getting a radar return on you.

Don't get me wrong, there are times when it is nice to have a little ECM cover so people have a harder time getting LRM locks on you but that is of questionable use because ECM is so easily countered. Hook up with some long term players and while some might agree with the notion that ECM is too good - the majority do not. In the end it is worth the time to wing with some guys that have played this a long time as it helps learn the techniques and play styles that are the most effective.

Edited by Steel Claws, 07 September 2013 - 01:04 PM.

[The Boz]

I am still yet to see an ECM-compatible mech that doesn't have an ECM installed.
I am quite sure that at least one exists, possibly a brand new mech that is yet to play the four games needed to buy it.

Seriously, is the argument from authority the best you can do? Hell, you run it on a light mech, and still fail to see any problem there!

[Eleshod]

ECM is an asset not a crutch. A hostile team running ECM isn't invulnerable, they still take damage. The only SERIOUS combat advantage is the denial of information on damaged mechs from range.

If you want to beat ECM keep you're eyes open and alert your team if you spot someone covered by ECM... Also pack UAV's they cut through ECM like butter.

[Steel Claws]

The Boz, on 07 September 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

Hell, you run it on a light mech, and still fail to see any problem there!

Correct, I do not see any issue running a mech designed to run ECM nor do the vast majority of people playing the game. Why take a raven 3L if not for ECM? That doesn't mean I don't drive lights without ECM. I also run a number of mediums without ECM and rarely run the 3M Cicada. Thats like why take a Blackjack 3M over a Blackjack 1X if not for the jump jets. Even after selling about 15 mechs I still have over 30 in the barn. I COULD drive assault mechs all the time but where is the fun in that.

[The Boz]

Eleshod, on 07 September 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

If you want to beat ECM keep you're eyes open and alert your team if you spot someone covered by ECM... Also pack UAV's they cut through ECM like butter.

Yes, because shooting cbills at people is always a viable counter.

Steel Claws, on 07 September 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

Correct, I do not see any issue running a mech designed to run ECM nor do the vast majority of people playing the game.

The fact that an ECM counters the only weapon that was designed to counter light mechs doesn't bother you at all?

Edited by The Boz, 07 September 2013 - 01:31 PM.

[Steel Claws]

Eleshod, on 07 September 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

ECM is an asset not a crutch. A hostile team running ECM isn't invulnerable, they still take damage. The only SERIOUS combat advantage is the denial of information on damaged mechs from range.

If you want to beat ECM keep you're eyes open and alert your team if you spot someone covered by ECM... Also pack UAV's they cut through ECM like butter.

Well said indeed.

ECM is just a tool. It isn't the only tool or even the best but it IS a tool that can be used. BAP, target decay, UAV, Artemis, Siesmic and advanced zoom - these are all tools I use as well depending on what I'm driving and what roll I want to fill. I have just 4 mechs in the garage that can load ECM and really only ever drive 1 - it just isnt that much help.

Edited by Steel Claws, 07 September 2013 - 02:01 PM.

[scJazz]

604 matches as of right now in a Catapult CPLT-A1 SmartCat (2 ALRM15, 4 SSRM2) out of 1809. Does ECM affect me? Why, yes, of course since I don't even get the option of using TAG. Did it prompt me to make a post in Gameplay Balance because Raven 2Ls are being handed out as Trial Mechs? Nope.

To quote Clint Eastwood in a terrible movie that included Mario Van Peebles (yeah he was in it... it was the 80s... you know it had to suck) "Improvise, Adapt, Overcome!"

or as we on the Interwebz like to say...

L2P! < 23 fewer characters this way

As has been mentioned... ECM is only an issue for Lurming. Everyone else can just shoot the stupid thing. Me, I just move to one of the flanks and pick off the st00pidz who exit the ECM Bubble or Dumb Fire my LRMs.

ECM Counters
Locks outside 200m

ECM Countered by
Anyone within 200m
Hard Countered by BAP under 150m
TAG
Mark I Eyeball
PPC

What was the problem here? Ohhhh yeah... L2P!

[The Boz]

scJazz, on 07 September 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

ECM Counters
Locks outside 200m

Flawed and incomplete list is flawed and incomplete.