12 replies to this topic

[Tjalf]

Greetings,

while surfing smurfy's mechlab, I noticed that PGI increased the tube-count on every Kintaro mech to about 15-20. After testing my KTO-18 i can confirm that those 1 and 6 tube-launchers are indeed replaced with bigger ones. That leads me as an owner of the Golden Boy to a serious questions: Why would someone buy a Golden Boy now?

The one thing that made the Golden Boy viable in comparison to the other variants before the patch was its high tube-counts. It was the only Kintaro that could load 15 and 20 launchers. Therefore it has by far the worst mobility of all Kintaros, something like a balance for those tubes (lesser torso twist/pitch and max. engine rating 290). All other Kintaros were more mobile, but could fire only smaller volleys.

I was ok with the GB's mobility downside, because of the unique tube-counts (which were awesome as a LRM carrier). But now? If you compare the Golden Boy with the KTO-19, the only benefit now is 1 more missile launcher in the CT. Because of its location, the real benefits are either 2 more SRMs/SSRMs or 5 more LRMs, nothing more. The rest of the hardpoints are identical. In Comparison, the KTO-19 can load an engine up to 360(!) and has a greater torso twist/pitch, which is clearly superior to those 2-5 more missiles of the GB.

I understand that hero mechs shouldn't be more viable than other mechs (or at least not a lot more). But since the last patch, the Golden Boy is the only hero mech right now, that has no advantage and especially positive uniqueness at all (which is the one thing, that makes it a hero mech). The hardpoints are identical to the KTO-19 despite 1 small missile launcher. For that "uniquenes", its mobility is reduced to the worst of the hole chassis.
Every other hero mech is at least on par or a little better than its chassis-variants. Even Fang and Dragon Slayer are, despite the fact, that other variants can mount the same weaponry. At least they don't have any disadvantage in comparison to those nearly identical variants.

Don't get me wrong, i still love my Golden Boy. But i don't understand, why you, PGI, would call that mech a hero mech right now. There's nothing unique about it (despite the unique mobility downside, painting and C-Bill boost). It would be much more of a hero mech, if you at least would remove those downsides, relocate those hardpoints (like on other hero mechs) or even add something unique to the GB (higher max. engine than the other variants, 1 additional hardpoint or module slot or something like that).

Edited by Tjalf, 07 September 2013 - 04:10 PM.

[Deacon412]

that highly disappoints me....I wasnt aware, it should certainly have some uniqueness

[Deathlike]

The Pretty Baby wants to have a word with you.

[Tjalf]

Deathlike, on 07 September 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

The Pretty Baby wants to have a word with you.

Whether the Pretty Baby is a viable variant isn't the point here. In comparison to the other Awesomes, it is at least unique in its hardpoint distribution and has no inferior handicap. Furthermore, it is one of the few mechs that can mount the biggest engine to date (STD400 and XL400), which makes it pretty unique and worth its hero mech title. The Kintaro has neither of those. Instead, it suffers from severe handicaps without any advantage for compensation.

Again, i don't care if you can pack a better loadout in a standard variant of any chassis than in its hero mech variant. But at least, the hero variant should be unique (in a positive manner) in its role, whether that is in its hardpoint distribution, in its mobility or whatever there is. Just calling a mech a hero mech, because the only thing that makes it unique is its paintjob and the +C-Bills doesn't make sense, which happens only to the Golden Boy at the moment. Every other hero mech is at least on par with its chassis-variants.

[Deathlike]

Tjalf, on 08 September 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

Whether the Pretty Baby is a viable variant isn't the point here. In comparison to the other Awesomes, it is at least unique in its hardpoint distribution and has no inferior handicap. Furthermore, it is one of the few mechs that can mount the biggest engine to date (STD400 and XL400), which makes it pretty unique and worth its hero mech title. The Kintaro has neither of those. Instead, it suffers from severe handicaps without any advantage for compensation.

Again, i don't care if you can pack a better loadout in a standard variant of any chassis than in its hero mech variant. But at least, the hero variant should be unique (in a positive manner) in its role, whether that is in its hardpoint distribution, in its mobility or whatever there is. Just calling a mech a hero mech, because the only thing that makes it unique is its paintjob and the +C-Bills doesn't make sense, which happens only to the Golden Boy at the moment. Every other hero mech is at least on par with its chassis-variants.

I think you missed the obvious point.

The PB suffers as far as I understand it with poorer hardpoints, but also from poor deceleration. It's almost like the Atlas effect (once you commit, you can't quite get out although you do have the speed to weave in and out like a medium). The PB trades that hardpoint for "extra speed"... but that's nothing. It cannot field 3 PPCs like most of its Awesome brethren, but also that the Awesome that can't do that can at least be a missile boat... the PB is limited to being an SRM boat (you could try to field LRMs if you want, but be less effective). The GB has nothing on the PB when you're comparing problems.

The GB has more hardpoints than the KTO-18 (literally, just one more energy hardpoint) in trading for slower speed.

It's more comparable to how the CTF-4X has more hardpoints than its other brethren, but it's slow.

Your argument for the GB is very weak in that sense.

Edited by Deathlike, 08 September 2013 - 08:20 AM.

[Tjalf]

Of course, it has either 1 more laser than the KTO-18 or 1 more missile than the KTO-19. But i don't think that it's advantageous enough, so that you need to nerf its mobility that hard to compensate it on a hero mech. And despite those 1 hardpoint, all three mechs are nearly identical in hardpoint layout.
The CTF-4X is a hole different story. It's hardpoint layout is unique for the whole chassis, being able to mount 4 ballistics in its arms + lasers + rockets. And because it's that different compared to the other variants, you can justify the mobility handicap on the 4X.
I don't see any similar impact of the 1 single hardpoint of the Golden Boy. Nothing that would justify the mobility nerf and the title of a hero mech. Before patch, you had at least the unique roll of a real Big-Volley-LRM support (if you wanted to). That was a good reason for calling it a hero mech and nerfing its mobility compared to the other variants (which could only fire 1, 6 and 10 volleys at once), not 1 small hardpoint more as a reason like it is now.

PS: I didn't know about the deceleration handicap of the Pretty Baby. Is it really that much?

Edited by Tjalf, 08 September 2013 - 11:44 AM.

[Deathlike]

Refer to the most recent thread/plea:
http://mwomercs.com/...-one-hardpoint/

[Tjalf]

Thanks for pointing that out.

Pretty good conclusion of the uniqueness of all hero mechs (up to the threads date). Seems like Pretty Baby has a new brother now.
Reading through the list, every hero mech (except the Fang which i own btw) has some destinctive uniqueness in its layout without any real disadvantages (at least Fang doesn't have a disadvantage while having no advantage).
If you justify the mobility nerf of the Golden Boy because of 1 additional hardpoint, nothing else (not even a destinctive hardpoint layout), then why aren't there similar disadvantages for other hero mechs because of their really unique hardpoint layouts or abilitys? Golden Boy actually has 2 disadvantages for that 1 hardpoint (less torso twist/pitch and lower max engine). Quite similar to the Pretty Baby's 2 handicaps for like nothing. Doesn't make any sense to me.

So, either make both hero mechs on par with other hero mechs by removing those unnecessary handicaps. or handicap the other hero mechs. That would be a fair solution from a designers point of view in my opinion.

Edited by Tjalf, 08 September 2013 - 01:11 PM.

[Deathlike]

Tjalf, on 08 September 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

Golden Boy actually has 2 disadvantages for that 1 hardpoint (less torso twist/pitch and lower max engine). Quite similar to the Pretty Baby's 2 handicaps for like nothing. Doesn't make any sense to me.

It's not a "disadvantage"... it's more like an extension to the problem. For instance, a Jenner and a Raven-3L would be more or less the same with a 295XL engine in terms of torso twist... the Jenner gets a "slight" edge with the 300XL cap.

You're paying for one more hardpoint, so a lower speed makes sense and unfortunately it's a "relatively fair tradeoff". The best you would get for the GB is the engine cap being raised to 300. Complaining to everyone that it is a "major negative" is not going to garner you sympathy. Balance is more than just the details.

The PB is the only hero mech that needs more attention... the other hero mechs are not really having the same level of "issues" generally speaking.

Edited by Deathlike, 08 September 2013 - 04:18 PM.

[Tjalf]

Garning sympathy will never be my desire/cause for doing something, just as a side mark.

Anyways, i think i do understand your point now. I looked through all availabe mechs out there and compared them to each other (hardpoint count, buffs, nerfs), especially their hero mech variants. Besides a few truly inferior normal variants, all hero mechs (except PB) have the same maximum amount of hardpoints. Some smaller differences are compensated with JJ or slightly different engine ratings/hardpoint locations. With that in mind you're right and the Golden Boy is the single hero mech with more hardpoints and therefore needs a compensation. I can do well with that justification.

I think the point that they buffed the other variants and removed some pre-patch-uniqueness of the Golden Boy with that (and with its downside in mind) caused me to miss the point that the 1 additional hardpoint is truly a uniqueness of all hero mechs. Maybe that's even the reason PGI buffed the other variants, because higher tubecounts + 1 more hardpoint was too much.

Keeping the Pretty Baby in mind with respect to my newly aquired "insight" i think adding 1 hardpoint and removing its deceleration quirk would be appropriate, but (if any) therefore reducing some of its torso twist/pitch like it is done on the Firebrand. But that's a story told in another thread.

Thanks for arguing with me! I'll enjoy playing my Golden Boy now, like i did since its release.

Edited by Tjalf, 09 September 2013 - 01:09 AM.

[Victor Morson]

The Golden Boy is the hero and patron saint of the downtrodden and hopeless, as it is truly an avatar of hopelessness.
A very very big one.

[MadTulip]

well this was clear from the start, no? its the same with the protector.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Alot about the kintaro makes me scratch my head and wonder what some of these devs are smoking. The fact that the GB is basically a super slow KTO-19 beside the point, there is also the sheer size of the thing. They can harp and harp all they want about size not equalling tonnage but when you make a 55 tonner as big all around (not just from the front) as a highlander and THEN go and give it such insane movement limations - iv got all three of the cbill ones and they always get stuck on the tiniest things, especially the ITTY BITTY freaking mediums and slopes in river city. Very frustraiting to be running along and come to a full stop cause my mech steped against a little fence thats a meter (at best) tall.