158 replies to this topic

[Mehlan]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 10 September 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

lights running into and blocking mechs at whim with almost no dmg and knockdowns is ********. lights can actually pin an assault mech in place right now, it's stupid. I love my light mechs, but collisions and knockdowns need to return, without collisions and DFA this is only half a mechgame, and is one thing I am very dissappointed won't be in for release.

Any mech can do it to another, it's not a 'light' only thing. Let's see you 'flick' away a 30-40lb knee-waist high, rectangular block.

[John Buford]

Mehlan, on 10 September 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

Bingo.. I think this is a...side approach to the same 'end'. First, to be blunt where is the 'proof' there's a real 'problem' what the actual problem is and the cause. Everything so far is really anecdotal, and as there's as much anecdotal instances to counter. Now another poster in his 'suggestions' states a jenner behind an atlas should be knocked down and the atlas notice little impact... why? Where does the Jenner stand in height compared to the Atlas, how does the atlas leg operate and where is the atla's center of gravity in as compared to the jenners? A jenner weights roughly 1/3 an Atlas.. say you weigh 180lb, what happens you walk backwards and hit something knee or hip height that weighs 60lbs? Particularly if your focused on something in front of you. Even if your walking, or much less 'running' forward?

You mean like when I trip over my cat?

[stjobe]

Prezimonto, on 10 September 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

but lights will suffer.

Which seems to be the whole (spoken or unspoken) point behind many posts here; to punish lights.

It's not a question of game balance, it's just punishment.

Do lights really need punishing any more than they are already "punished" by having paper-thin armour and very little weaponry?

The only thing lights have going for them is speed and agility (and it's not really that big an advantage compared to some mediums and even heavies), and size; reading half the posts in this and similar threads, that is apparently too much.

Sometimes I wonder if these posters would be satisfied with anything less than making lights totally inferior to everything else in every respect; basically unplayable.

Then I wonder what would happen if they managed to get their way; would they move on to mediums next?

Edited by stjobe, 10 September 2013 - 04:19 PM.

[Mehlan]

John Buford, on 10 September 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

You mean like when I trip over my cat?

I hope your cat doesn't weigh 30-60lbs... :-)


btw....after checking some things on test,

Inital test, SDR-5K, forest colony, 12 (stadard) armor on legs. speed 137.7 kph 3-5 impacts with other mechs to remove the armor from a leg...4 more to destroy that same leg.

Quote

Then I wonder what would happen if they managed to get their way; would they move on to mediums next?

most likely so.

I also find it, somewhat disconcerting the number of these with founder tags... Id like some way to parse the data, damage... it'll take more time to figure out how it's figuring location, and other factors going into it. It'd did seem that regards, damage was (in the case of the spider) applied to the legs of both targets, even when I used JJ and impacted the upper atlas torso, it took leg damage.
Of note, i did 1 run with a cicada and some of the hits applied both to a leg and the ct.

Edited by Mehlan, 10 September 2013 - 04:57 PM.

[Raidyr]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 10 September 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

lights running into and blocking mechs at whim with almost no dmg and knockdowns is ********. lights can actually pin an assault mech in place right now, it's stupid. I love my light mechs, but collisions and knockdowns need to return, without collisions and DFA this is only half a mechgame, and is one thing I am very dissappointed won't be in for release.

Do you know what else can "pin" assault mechs? Mediums. And heavies. Even other assault mechs.

I literally don't understand the point of posts like these unless it's just a thinly veiled appeal to the developers. "A light mech killed me and it's unfair nerf please".

stjobe, on 10 September 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

Sometimes I wonder if these posters would be satisfied with anything less than making lights totally inferior to everything else in every respect; basically unplayable.

Then I wonder what would happen if they managed to get their way; would they move on to mediums next?

That's what a big part of it is. A lot of members in this community sadly think light mechs shouldn't be playable in any role as their personal TAG/NARC/ECM/BAP carrier. I think a lot of the issues simply come from not being familiar with a chassis. This is most evident in the broad generalizations of the weight class. People say "Nerf lights!" and "Add knockdowns so I can kill lights with impunity!" when they mean Jenners or Ravens or maybe an ECM Spider or Commando but no one talks about how terrible Spider 5K/5V's are, or Raven 4X's, or most of the Commando variants. Nobody plays these mechs and for good reason. But people want to nerf them because a Jenner killed their Atlas once and it's unfair because reasons.

As for moving on to mediums, I'd be surprised. Mediums are already marginalized in the current gameplay we have. Cicadas would probably be next on the chopping block though.

[Spawnsalot]

Can't wait for knockdowns to come back maybe with the addition of staggering/stumbling for lesser impacts...

But then again, I'd also like to see world collisions - walk into or along a cliff or building etc and scraaaaape of big chunks of armour... good times.

[Prezimonto]

stjobe, on 10 September 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

Which seems to be the whole (spoken or unspoken) point behind many posts here; to punish lights.

It's not a question of game balance, it's just punishment.

Do lights really need punishing any more than they are already "punished" by having paper-thin armour and very little weaponry?

The only thing lights have going for them is speed and agility (and it's not really that big an advantage compared to some mediums and even heavies), and size; reading half the posts in this and similar threads, that is apparently too much.

Sometimes I wonder if these posters would be satisfied with anything less than making lights totally inferior to everything else in every respect; basically unplayable.

Then I wonder what would happen if they managed to get their way; would they move on to mediums next?

My point is this: I think it's okay that lights (which can generate nearly 3x the velocity of an atlas and hugely better acceleration) be limited by the amount of damage they wish to both deal (and then sustain) via collisions. Lights should be afraid of being stepped on/knocked over. Conversely, if they're willing to take the risk they should be allowed to come at a huge mech, from that mechs blind side, at speeds that mech can not respond to, and have a decent chance to disable it for the 4 or 5 seconds it takes it to get back up... IF that light also has to sustain commensurate damage.

It shouldn't be allowable for mechs to use "ramming speed" without some kind of fair exchange of damage. Knockdowns that disable a mech AND make targeting it easy pickings should come with a penalty. Light mechs can pick and choose their engagements due to speed. An assault mech deserves to be a mean SOB in close if the pilot is good enough to maneuver the huge pile of bolts into collision distance with out dying.

I actually think collisions (even if roughly equal damage is done) has the chance to heavily favor tactical use by a light mech over an assault mech. The only way to keep it balanced is to make sure that light mech has to carefully pick and choose the situations in which to attempt to bowl over fatty.

It's all about speed and positioning. A good light pilot will rarely, if ever, have to worry about being knocked down and can, in theory, CHOOSE to knock over most mechs due to great velocity. A good assault pilot will have to work very hard to get into close range and then effectively use a collision do deal damage.

If they stick to basic physics for the damage model lights will be fine.

Edited by Prezimonto, 10 September 2013 - 05:24 PM.

[Mehlan]

Prezimonto, on 10 September 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

My point is this: I think it's okay that lights (which can generate nearly 3x the velocity of an atlas and hugely better acceleration) be limited by the amount of damage they wish to both deal (and then sustain) via collisions. Lights should be afraid of being stepped on/knocked over. Conversely, if they're willing to take the risk they should be allowed to come at a huge mech, from that mechs blind side, at speeds that mech can not respond to, and have a decent chance to disable it for the 4 or 5 seconds it takes it to get back up... IF that light also has to sustain commensurate damage.

It shouldn't be allowable for mechs to use "ramming speed" without some kind of fair exchange of damage. Knockdowns that disable a mech AND make targeting it easy pickings should come with a penalty. Light mechs can pick and choose their engagements due to speed. An assault mech deserves to be a mean SOB in close if the pilot is good enough to maneuver the huge pile of bolts into collision distance with out dying.

I actually think collisions (even if roughly equal damage is done) has the chance to heavily favor tactical use by a light mech over an assault mech. The only way to keep it balanced is to make sure that light mech has to carefully pick and choose the situations in which to attempt to bowl over fatty.

It's all about speed and positioning. A good light pilot will rarely, if ever, have to worry about being knocked down and can, in theory, CHOOSE to knock over most mechs due to great velocity. A good assault pilot will have to work very hard to get into close range and then effectively use a collision do deal damage.

If they stick to basic physics for the damage model lights will be fine.

If you check my post earlier, I thinl you'd see the basic is already in place... forget the knockdown/stun, while maybe amusing for others it's no 'fun' for the person on the recieving end. As it is any light mechjock isn't going to be running around trying to run over other mech's will-nilly... on a pristine mech it doesnt take too many impacts to kill the armor, adn the leg. Toss the possibility of weapons hits... it's a quick trip to specatating.

FYI, and atlas tops... 50kph, i think the fastest a light will show is...152.x as for knockovers. atlas, 100ton... jenner 35ton, just over 1/3 the atlas's weight.

Edited by Mehlan, 10 September 2013 - 05:36 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

Raidyr, on 10 September 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

I literally don't understand the point of posts like these unless it's just a thinly veiled appeal to the developers. "A light mech killed me and it's unfair nerf please".

The point is that when 2 objects 25 tons or greater collide there is going to be damage, trip ups, and if an 80 ton mech lands on the head of another mech it should be doing damage and knocking one if not both mechs down to the ground. Basic physics and all.

[John Buford]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 10 September 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

The point is that when 2 objects 25 tons or greater collide there is going to be damage, trip ups, and if an 80 ton mech lands on the head of another mech it should be doing damage and knocking one if not both mechs down to the ground. Basic physics and all.

Since when did Video games worry about basic physics. Did you know a .50cal machince gun is accurate out to about 2k yards, and a 120 mm cannon kills things dead out past 1 minle? So BT and now MW aren't going about basic physics but what makes a fun enjoyable and balanced game.

[Corvus Antaka]

John Buford, on 10 September 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

Since when did Video games worry about basic physics. Did you know a .50cal machince gun is accurate out to about 2k yards, and a 120 mm cannon kills things dead out past 1 minle? So BT and now MW aren't going about basic physics but what makes a fun enjoyable and balanced game.

Well, I guess then I have to hit you with the "Death from Above and collisions was in every previous mech title" stick

[Galenit]

Soda Popinsky, on 10 September 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Bad physics. You substituted velocity for acceleration. You should be trying to calculate Energy, not Force. Big difference.

I though about knockdown, thats where the force comes from,
then i put the damage in front of it, thats where i should have used energy.

In the end it dosent matter that much, 1 or 0,5 times the weight x speed² gives us both numbers to compare.

[stjobe]

Mehlan, on 10 September 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

It'd did seem that regards, damage was (in the case of the spider) applied to the legs of both targets, even when I used JJ and impacted the upper atlas torso, it took leg damage.

That's part of the removal of the old collision/knock-down code; all collision damage is applied to the legs. It's (hopefully) just a place-holder.

Raidyr, on 10 September 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

the Commando variants. Nobody plays these mechs

Hey! I'm not nobody!

Prezimonto, on 10 September 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

Lights should be afraid of being stepped on/knocked over.

Why? What does that add to the game, and why especially lights?

Prezimonto, on 10 September 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

Conversely, if they're willing to take the risk they should be allowed to come at a huge mech, from that mechs blind side, at speeds that mech can not respond to, and have a decent chance to disable it for the 4 or 5 seconds it takes it to get back up... IF that light also has to sustain commensurate damage.

Two things: Getting knocked down is a non-fun experience and taking control away from the player is a major no-no in PvP game design. It's just not fun being killed while helpless to do something about it. This is perhaps my main gripe with knock-downs and/or stunlocks. They don't add enough fun to compensate for the endless non-fun they cause on the receiving end.

Also, "commensurate damage": Does the tackling player in e.g. in football suffer "commensurate" effects to the tackled player? Does a fist suffer "commensurate" damage as the chin it connects to? Does a nail suffer "commensurate" effects to the board it's driven into?

And most of all, do the two parties have the same armour level, or will "commensurate" damage in practice become another round of "punish the light"?

Prezimonto, on 10 September 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

Light mechs can pick and choose their engagements due to speed.

To a certain extent, this is true. But remember, nothing is faster than a bullet.

Prezimonto, on 10 September 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

An assault mech deserves to be a mean SOB in close if the pilot is good enough to maneuver the huge pile of bolts into collision distance with out dying.

Yes, but that would be better served by implementing punching and kicking instead of collisions. A kick from an Atlas does 20 damage to the legs of the 'mech hit; that's a lot of persuasive power to not get too close.

Prezimonto, on 10 September 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

The only way to keep it balanced is to make sure that light mech has to carefully pick and choose the situations in which to attempt to bowl over fatty.

As a light pilot, I must strenuously object that the same must be applied to lights, especially if collision damage is high, or we're back to the closed beta griefing stage where people killed lights not by shooting them but by knocking them over. Over and over and over again, keeping players out of control of their 'mechs for most of a match. This is not fun for anyone but a bully.

Prezimonto, on 10 September 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

It's all about speed and positioning. A good light pilot will rarely, if ever, have to worry about being knocked down

On the contrary, a good light pilot will constantly have to worry about being knocked down; what makes him good is the fact that he does constantly worry about it and that he also works constantly to avoid it - he has to or he dies from collision damage instead of enemy fire; perhaps even before doing damage to the enemy himself.

Make no mistake; collision damage and knockdowns will be toughest on light 'mechs, and reduce their playability the most. I urge everyone to keep this in mind when discussing these things; you're talking about the least played weight-class in the game by a rather large margin, and these things will more than likely make them less played since they will become harder to play at all, and much harder to play well.

Prezimonto, on 10 September 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

If they stick to basic physics for the damage model lights will be fine.

I disagree. Just basic physics would preclude a light charging a heavier opponent as they would both take the same damage. Which means charging would go from useful for lights to unusable by lights.

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 10 September 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

The point is that when 2 objects 25 tons or greater collide there is going to be damage, trip ups, and if an 80 ton mech lands on the head of another mech it should be doing damage and knocking one if not both mechs down to the ground. Basic physics and all.

Yes, but the big question is; does "basic physics and all" make for a better game? A more fun game? If it is implemented in a way that doesn't invalidate a whole weight class and adds more strategy and options to the game, sure, I'm all for it. If it's done in a way that resembles what we had back in closed beta, it's a big no from me. I don't ever want that grief-ridden bug-fest of a knock-down mechanic back.

[xenoglyph]

stjobe, on 09 September 2013 - 11:10 PM, said:

Probably the most they could do without introducing a complete physical attack framework is a re-adjustment of collision damage to not always hit the legs but actually do damage where the 'mechs touch, and a re-adjustment of the damage to be proportional to the speed and weight of the two 'mechs - and that's going to hurt light 'mechs more than anything; in a couple of matches back in closed beta I actually lost more armour from getting run over by my own team-mates at the start of the match than I did from enemy fire.

You're kind of a drama queen. At no time during the history of MWO (since June 2012 anyways) has collision damage been more than 1 point of damage. And it already does damage the sections that collide. What we did have in the past was more frequent leg damage (again, 1 point at a time) from running at high speed over bumps.

[Sam Slade]

Raidyr, on 10 September 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

I literally don't understand .

fixed

Also, bring back harcore collisions. knockdowns the whole deal; just make it more painful for those mechs not build for it.

I remember many a game pre-knockdown removal where an enemy scout would come tearing right through the middle of your line, marking targets for team mates, weaving away from my light mech team mates, and finally skipping over a nearby hill with jump jets to vanish into cover... after all the 'damnit!' and confusion you'd still have to look at the move and grudgingly admit thay they're a damned good pilot.

Now, I look with distain at the circleing laser/streak bug-bots... wait a few seconds... AC20... wait a few seconds... AC20... then they come and hug my feet.*sigh* jump jet... they zoom under....AC20... boom! When I actually come up aginst a skilled light pilot it's a really refreshing change... they are becoming a rare breed, but certainly one I'm kind of pleased to be kiled by; it somehow feels like they deserve the kill.

[OpCentar]

I see that this has quickly degenerated into a light mech vs every one else as many other collision/knockdown topics did before. The real issue is not about that but rather adding some much needed complexity to the game.


Dragonbowling was bad, but it was bad not because knockdowns are bad but rather the collision model of the Dragon was bugged. Fix the model and move on, if some other chassis proves too good or bad - fix that too and move on. Don't remove an entire gameplay aspect just because some were abusing a bug.


Lights getting knocked down by running into a heavy or assault? well yeah I would expect so if I make a mistake and run into a twice heavier and slower mech. My idea of a light mech is not running in between an entire lance and expecting to survive it but rather expecting to die from that mistake. Scouting, harassing, painting targets for LRM strikes and picking off damaged mechs is the role of the light class. Brawling with anything above your weight class is not. Of course you can try it, but the odds will not be in your favor and pilot skill should determine the outcome.


Knockdowns are a high risk maneuver, and they should drop the enemy mech to the floor if done right or yours if done wrong. All while taking and dealing impact damage. Stunlocks could be easily avoided by having an immunity timer activated from the moment your mech is dropped for the first time. Or quirking specific chassis, or adding enhanced gyro modules or even consumables.

There are many ways to balance it, we just need to get started again.

[stjobe]

xenoglyph, on 10 September 2013 - 10:52 PM, said:

You're kind of a drama queen. At no time during the history of MWO (since June 2012 anyways) has collision damage been more than 1 point of damage. And it already does damage the sections that collide. What we did have in the past was more frequent leg damage (again, 1 point at a time) from running at high speed over bumps.

Try it.

Take a stock COM-1D to the training grounds and run into other 'mechs on purpose. It should take you 36 hits (12 armour + 24 IS) to lose the leg if collision damage was 1 point.

You'll lose the leg well before 36 hits.

[Imperius]

I can see why PGI ignores the forum community they can't even stay on topic.

[Mehlan]

Imperius, on 11 September 2013 - 02:50 AM, said:

I can see why PGI ignores the forum community they can't even stay on topic.

or cant get their information straight... want to tell us again how collision doesn't work? In case you missed it, 4-5 collisions to strip a spider leg armor, 9 (total) to 'break' the leg.

[TitanSeraph]

I got to agree that collisions would be an excellent re implementation to the game.
Light mechs SHOULD be penalised for rushing up into an atlas feeling unkillable. An atlas should be able to shove a commando out of the way.

Most of the arguments against would be of things along the side of light mechs not being able to shove themselves at enemy mechs. WHICH they shouldn't.