158 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

DaZur, on 11 September 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

Slippery slope when you begin balancing global damage off of tonnage... If my 100 mech rams your 20 ton mech the 20 "should" be mauled... I don't think equal damage is an irrational compromise.

You might think that (especially if you're an assault pilot ) but in BT my 20 ton 'mech charging your 100-ton 'mech only took 10 damage, whereas you took 2 damage for every hex I had moved in my charge; 2 damage from a 1 hex charge, 30 damage from a 15 hex charge (roughly translatable to 150kph).

DaZur, on 11 September 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

I'm guessing the plausible argument by the community will be that smaller / faster / more maneuverable mechs should be avoiding hand-to-hand with larger mechs in the first place...

And if they could I'm sure they would, as would I. But I don't know how plausible that argument really is when there are situations where it's unavoidable and through no fault of my own I get dragged into it. The post-drop shuffle at the drop point for one, intentional griefing for another, and the good old "designated hitter" on the opposing teams that we saw in closed beta for a favourite third.

Edited by stjobe, 11 September 2013 - 10:42 AM.

[Galenit]

Livewyr, on 11 September 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

(If an Atlas hits a Jenner at at 20 kph..I see some light damage to the Jenner and Atlas (legs)

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2738695
0,3 damage for both, if the light stand still and is hit by an atlas with 20kph. (physical not correct, a still standing mech will still have a counterforce that would be added to the damage/ or kinetic force).


For gamestart: Let a timer be, that activates collision after 30 seconds.

Edited by Galenit, 11 September 2013 - 11:05 AM.

[Mehlan]

Consider, a jenner...charging @ 152kph... if I've got the math right, 3.5x15.2=53.2, now wanna toss an alpha or two from the jenner onto that same location? 52.2->72.2, raise your hand if your mech can/will laugh that hit off... and op would have the person on the receiving end 'stunned'?

Quote

Any light mech pilot here complaing and derailing the topic to its not fair for lights. Is here for self preservation of unbalced gameplay style that they know is wrong but don't want to lose thier imbalanced advantage

I'd be jumping up and down, begging and bribing them to implement this if I wanted an 'imbalanced advantage'....and can you imagine what some new player would think/say the first time It happened ot them?

[Kramdog]

only read up to page 4 so far and haven't seen anything mentioned about this at all with regards to knock downs if they are ever implemented again. I wasn't around for closed beta when they had them before and I also haven't played TT BT or any of the mech games either. I'm guessing and thinking it would make sense though that if my Jenner with a XL300 gets knocked down I should be able to get back up a hell of a lot faster then if I was in my Atlas with a STD350. Part of the benefit of being able to go faster should be being able to go faster. The effort the Jenner's engine needs to put out to get back up is WAY bloody less then the amount of effort the Atlas with the bigger engine. If something that actually makes sense like that was put in... while I would not enjoy being knocked down, it wouldn't be nearly as bad since I would be able to get up faster then the bigger guy who may have also got knocked down.

Seeing as it looks like the light and medium mechs would have the biggest disadvantage in getting knocked down more this would at least bring a little balance to it.

Anway just got off work and now it's time to run around and "evasion tank" the poop out of some big slow guys and drag them off into the unknown to be gang busted by whoever is on my team.

[blinkin]

i will just copy pasta from an old thread i created a while back on this subject:

i remember how collisions used to work, and i also remember how much that made me want to throw my computer out the window.

for those who did not experience the old collision physics: be glad you were spared that awful nightmare.

i have been hearing that collisions are going to be brought back. i like the idea, but something needs to be done differently.

now for my actual suggestion:

any numbers should be adjusted based on play testing.

i think there should be 2 kinds.

• standard collisions: for the most part the same as old collisions. knock down, ragdoll physics, the whole mess. the difference is these would only happen at high speed (combined speeds of over 140kph, meaning the speed of the mechs relative to each other is over 140kph example: one mech going 100kph and another going 50kph), and also these would only take effect with direct head on collisions. these collisions would still be subject to the same tonnage rules that were used before (no commandos tackling atlas).
  
• glancing hits: these would turn torsos, interfering with aiming, and possibly rotate legs (at high speeds), forcing mechs to make sudden uncontrolled turns. these would happen with any other sort of collision, making them by far the most common collision type.

[Iron War]

One Medic Army, on 09 September 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

Light pilots: The light should bounce off for minimal damage.

Assault pilots: The light should be crushed beneath my massive weight.

Me: Impact energy should be calculated (Kinetic Energy=1/2mass*velocity*velocity) and applied to both mechs, Each mech should have a threshold for when it gets knocked down. A light mech moving fast may indeed knock over an atlas, because velocity counts twice over, but the light will probably have the lower threshold, and will be in worse trouble from being knocked down.

To be frank, the real reason I want collisions back has nothing to do with lights, I want it back to make people spread the **** out. People will stop cowering right behind the Atlas as it advances, if they get knocked over when the atlas has to back up.
There will be a short period of adjustment (read: ******* and moaning on the forums) and then, hopefully, people will stop facehumping their own team all the time.

^^100% CORRECT^^

I was thinking we could also throw a gyro rating in there to shake things up . . . PGI likes to make things complicated . . . http://mwomercs.com/...ic/135223-gyro/

[YueFei]

blinkin, on 11 September 2013 - 09:42 PM, said:

i will just copy pasta from an old thread i created a while back on this subject:

i remember how collisions used to work, and i also remember how much that made me want to throw my computer out the window.

for those who did not experience the old collision physics: be glad you were spared that awful nightmare.

i have been hearing that collisions are going to be brought back. i like the idea, but something needs to be done differently.

now for my actual suggestion:

any numbers should be adjusted based on play testing.

i think there should be 2 kinds.

• standard collisions: for the most part the same as old collisions. knock down, ragdoll physics, the whole mess. the difference is these would only happen at high speed (combined speeds of over 140kph, meaning the speed of the mechs relative to each other is over 140kph example: one mech going 100kph and another going 50kph), and also these would only take effect with direct head on collisions. these collisions would still be subject to the same tonnage rules that were used before (no commandos tackling atlas).
  
• glancing hits: these would turn torsos, interfering with aiming, and possibly rotate legs (at high speeds), forcing mechs to make sudden uncontrolled turns. these would happen with any other sort of collision, making them by far the most common collision type.

Yeah, this is the most sensible thing to do. Make knockdowns something that a player in control can avoid through their own actions. A large mech moving at low speed shouldn't be able to bowl over smaller mechs. But if that large mech manages to build up full steam and get moving at top speed, and a smaller mech couldn't react in time to get out of the way? A knockdown happening in that case is fine.

I would love to see intricate collision physics that takes into account the relative vector, orientation of the mechs, stances, etc. Anything except simply "bigger" knocks down "smaller". Smaller mechs should be able to knockdown larger ones with enough momentum and the right angle. On the other hand, larger mechs should be able to brace themselves against these charges and deflect the light mech. After all, larger mechs are generally slower and *can't* avoid contact if the lighter mech really is hellbent on charging and ramming him, so I'd like to see a mechanism where a larger mech can brace against the impact and come out on top. Something intuitive like leaning directly into the charge. No need for extra buttons, just a good physics model.

Edited by YueFei, 11 September 2013 - 11:39 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

DaZur, on 11 September 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

Slippery slope when you begin balancing global damage off of tonnage... If my 100 mech rams your 20 ton mech the 20 "should" be mauled... I don't think equal damage is an irrational compromise.

I'm guessing the plausible argument by the community will be that smaller / faster / more maneuverable mechs should be avoiding hand-to-hand with larger mechs in the first place...

Actually, I think barely a thing should happen at all. We're talking machines that shoot at each other with fusion powered lasers that melts off armor. Why does the slow impact of another mech even make more than chip some paint?

I think the only purpose of collisions should be to stop mechs (not even make them fall over). And mech "melee" maneuvers would be about blocking their arms so you can't aim at anything with them, twisting the torso to throw off aim, or tripping enemy mechs (so making someome fall over is possible, but requires some more effort than bumping into them).

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 12 September 2013 - 01:20 AM.

[Corbon Zackery]

Whatever they do needs to be done with care otherwise veterans like me from closed beta will exploit the hell out of it.

Simple tactics include using a light mech to trip a light so you teammates can have a easy kill as they shoot a stationary target.

Deployment zone bowling as your teammates crash into you trying to get out of the deployment zone.

Using a fast hunchback or dragon to knock down a key mech for a easy kill.

The old mechanic you would trip and fall and it would take 3 seconds to right your self since you don't have and arms it was very comical.

I don't have a issue with them adding collisions. However, its just going to be a new tool that will be exploited for free kills.

[Sam Slade]

Corbon Zackery, on 12 September 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

I don't have a issue with them adding collisions. However, its just going to be a new tool that will be exploited for free kills.

So long as tbey can implement it without the kills being 'free'(so add a risk vs reward) aspect thenhow is it an issue?

[Syllogy]

PEEFsmash, on 09 September 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

I don't think the game needs collisions. It will only nerf the already underpowered lights. If it came with SIGNIFICANT light buffs, then maybe it could work.

Lights are underpowered? Bwahahahahah.

[Dimento Graven]

Imperius, on 09 September 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

I think you should take a little damage and come to a complete stop and get stunned depending on the speed you hit said object.

Edit:Collisions are going to come back it was said in the NGNG podcast with Bryan Eckman. So lets help them come up with a not so grieving way to implement it.

Adapting the TT rules for it shouldn't be difficult, all the movement restrictions and such were based on pilot skill, so each pilot is on his own for that but for damage, page 29 of the 4th Edition Rulebook has this:

"Both BattleMechs take damage from the collision. The defender takes 1 point of damage for every 10 tons that the charging BattleMech weighs, multiplied by the number of hexes moved by the attacker in the Movement Phase (in MWO parlance that's translated as the attackers speed at moment of impact, divided by 30). The charging BattleMech takes 1 point of damage for every 10 tons the target weighs. Round any fractions up.

Group the damage resulting from charging attacks into 5 point clusters. The attacking player rolls once on the appropriate hit location table for each cluster (meaning the damage was applied to the appropriate side the attacker was facing of the target 'mech at moment of impact and the damage had a 'missile like' spread to it).

If the attacker is charging a prone BattleMech, the defender takes damage on the appropriate column of the BattleMech Hit Location Table, but the damage to the attacker is taken on the BattleMech Kick Location Table (meaning when colliding with a 'mech that's been knocked down, the damage occurred mostly to the legs)."

So a 50 ton medium charging a 100 ton assault, at 90kph would end up with a damage calc of:

Defender receives: 50/10*(90/30) = 15
Attacker receives: 100/10 damage = 10

And if the charge attack were reversed where it was Atlas charging the medium:

Defender receives: 100/10*(90/30) = 30
Attacker receives: 100/10 = 10

Charging a 'mech larger than you is not something you'd normally want to do, and the calculations support a "risk vs. reward" balance reflecting that.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 13 September 2013 - 08:55 AM.

[Mehlan]

Quote

The defender takes 1 point of damage for every 10 tons that the charging BattleMech weighs, multiplied by the number of hexes moved by the attacker in the Movement Phase (in MWO parlance that's translated as the attackers speed at moment of impact, divided by 30)

If I may, where is the source for this MWO conversion/'parlance'?

[One Medic Army]

Mehlan, on 13 September 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

If I may, where is the source for this MWO conversion/'parlance'?

There isn't one because its wrong.
Every 10.8kph equates to 1hex/round. (30m/10sec)

[Dimento Graven]

Mehlan, on 13 September 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

If I may, where is the source for this MWO conversion/'parlance'?

Look it up on Sarna it's posted there, but I've also posted it and many other places too that TT hex sizes were 30 meters per hex. Maybe the calculation is slightly off, not breaking the movement rate down to a "10 second" round, which is also a TT convention, but be that as it may, the concept should still work.

[Corvus Antaka]

we definitely need knockdowns and more collision damage. DFA is very very noticeably absent too.

I've seen some comment that light mechs will suffer from this, but the truth is good light pilots, while occassionally colliding, will, once they adapt be just fine. Even when we had dragon bowling my lights where fine despite collisions, it just means pilots need to be more aware.

Importantly this will help with team tactics, maintaining better formations & distances, and being aware of your surroundings much more.

DFA needs to be able to do significant damage, it is a btech staple and something we had in every previous game. it adds a lot of depth to battles and is simply incredibly fun when you pull it off. It also means mechs need to be more mobile or risk getting crushed. Too many pilots suck way too much right now, static in their highlanders holding lines with little actual piloting ability or movement skills.

Exact numbers are up to PGI. not every collision needs to result in a knockdown, glancing collisions shouldnt, but collisions do need to at least cause more damage with physics based calculations similar to how cars collide in example, variables like speed, vector, and tonnage must all be factored in.

[Mehlan]

Dimento Graven, on 13 September 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

Look it up on Sarna it's posted there, but I've also posted it and many other places too that TT hex sizes were 30 meters per hex. Maybe the calculation is slightly off, not breaking the movement rate down to a "10 second" round, which is also a TT convention, but be that as it may, the concept should still work.

Aye but compare the damage numbers between your conversion and that provided by One Medic... for dirty math, I just take mwo speed /10... 50/10*(64.8/10) =5*6.48=32.5, or 32pts damage to the target atlas, and he takes the 10. If we reverse the mechs, 100/10*(48.6/10) = 10*4.86=48.6, or 48-49pts damage to the medium.. now granted in this case we're using max speed. The game would only need to..take factor mech speed @ ipoint/time of impact...and they could get fancier from there is also the question what kind of additional load can/would it create?

[Dimento Graven]

Mehlan, on 13 September 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

Aye but compare the damage numbers between your conversion and that provided by One Medic... for dirty math, I just take mwo speed /10... 50/10*(64.8/10) =5*6.48=32.5, or 32pts damage to the target atlas, and he takes the 10. If we reverse the mechs, 100/10*(48.6/10) = 10*4.86=48.6, or 48-49pts damage to the medium.. now granted in this case we're using max speed. The game would only need to..take factor mech speed @ ipoint/time of impact...and they could get fancier from there is also the question what kind of additional load can/would it create?

I like your numbers better than mine, thanks, and as far as load, I can't imagine it adding any significant load, it's just "one more weapon" calc to consider. The only thing that I could even begin to conceive of adding load is if they also have knock downs, in which case there's additional maths necessary to figure out who gets knocked down, where the get knocked down too, their facing, etc. But PGI could gimp it be always having us fall on our face regardless of where we were hit, and if the target 'mech is lighter than the attacker it 'always' falls...

[Mehlan]

Quote

we definitely need knockdowns and more collision damage. DFA is very very noticeably absent too.

I've seen some comment that light mechs will suffer from this, but the truth is good light pilots, while occassionally colliding, will, once they adapt be just fine. Even when we had dragon bowling my lights where fine despite collisions, it just means pilots need to be more aware.

I think you need to my post in regards to this earlier in the thread... It could easily turn MWO into destruction derby with mechs.