158 replies to this topic

[Mehlan]

carl kerensky, on 10 September 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

Collisions need to be back in and implemented in the most realistic fashion. For the sake of immersion and providing some in kind of incentive to pilot correctly we need it in. It will change the whole scope of gameplay for the better. Less cheese is always better.

Ck

I get the feeling people are not thinking this through as well as they should... remember that drop that damaged your legs, now that may put you on your back/face... or that slope you couldn't climb, but can slide/walk down... it may send you for a tumble instead.

[carl kerensky]

Mehlan, on 10 September 2013 - 04:52 AM, said:

I get the feeling people are not thinking this through as well as they should... remember that drop that damaged your legs, now that may put you on your back/face... or that slope you couldn't climb, but can slide/walk down... it may send you for a tumble instead.

I understand that concern and terrain interaction might need tweaking but as far as mechs on mechs collisions will enhance fighting style and encourage more caution while engaging in close quarters. Gameplay will improve because of this.

Ck

[Kaldor]

Collisions:

Yes

As they were in closed beta.

Why?

It sorted the good pilots from the bad pilots. Right now lights essentially do "evasion tank" damage better than an assault does with armor.

Pinballing and facehugging should not be a viable tactic for any mech, at any weight class.

[Mehlan]

Now why would terrain need tweaking? After all your wanting 'realism', seems that the terrain is pretty fine for that if the system takes into account size/mass based in regards to these drops/slopes and elevation changes... you may see a goat climbing or traversing a cliff face, but not an elephant... The bigger they are, the harder they fall. Facehugging should not allowed? Why, because you don't like it? Heaven forbid a short-range based mech get inside the arc of a long range mech. Collisions take place, mechs take damage from contact...maybe it needs to be tweaked, but there are no forcefields keeping mechs from making contact.

[Mehlan]

Sounds like a desperate attempt to apply rpg based terminology to a fps system... You are not forced or made to fire at the light in lui of another, easier to hit target.

[Roland]

PEEFsmash, on 09 September 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

I don't think the game needs collisions. It will only nerf the already underpowered lights. If it came with SIGNIFICANT light buffs, then maybe it could work.

Begin a light pilot was much more satisfying back in closed beta when you had to be much more aware of your environment.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

I'm all for collisions. It forces players to be aware of their surroundings and I'm getting sick of losing pug matches due to everyone bunching up into a "fed ball".

[Galenit]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 September 2013 - 03:49 AM, said:

And should be. Cause it is two 100 ton vehicles colliding at 48 KpH!

f=ma
Force=mass x acceleration
Newton=kg x m/s²

Here is your 100ton, 48kph Atlas:
f =100000 x 13,3² = 17689000 N

Now lets look on a 150kph 25 tons commando
25000 x 41,7² = 43472000 N

That commando has nearly the triple force with 3 times speed and 1/4 weight.

If they hit frontaly they will both be subjected to 60.000.0000 N and will take the same damage, maybe 1 for every 1.000.000N? That would be 60 damage for each of them over the whole hitting site. 60/8=7,5 damage to every part of their front lots for the commando, a little for the atlas.
I would prefer it when the impactpoint would matter to. The commando is still damaged all over for 7,5 damage to all parts in his front (head, torso, sidetorsos, legs, arms) but the atlas gets 20 damage to each leg and his hips (they would be matched to the side and/or fronttorso/s) where the commando hits him.


Knockdowns:
They should be calculated from impactforce, counterforce and bonus.

Knockdown happens when the impactforce+bonus is higher then the counterforce+bouns

Impactforce is the 43.472.000n from the ramming commando.
Counterforce is the 17689000N from the rammed Atlas (lets say they ram frontal)
Bonus dependes on one the following: chassi, highdifference, quirk.

Bonus:
Chassi:
Some are build for ramming they have a higher chance to knock down someone,
some have a low mass center they have a higher chance to not be knocked down.
Chassibonus i let out this time, they are both normal mechs.

Highdifference:
Basing on the relationship of the mass centers (i think the gyro) of both mechs.
The commando gets the impact all over the front, nothing for him then.
The atlas gets the impact to his legs and hips, thats not over his gyro, he gets a bonus of 2x his counterforce (now he has 34000000N)
If the command would have jumped, if he could, to the atlas face, the atlas would have a counterforcebonus of 0,5x (halfing it) becaus he was hit above his center mass.

Quirk:
Another number to balance mechs, or remove balance like the speedthingy do ....
The atlas has a counterknockdown quirk that gives him flat 1000000N bonus for counterforce
The commando gets nothing again.

The atlas has now 44 counterforce, the commando stay at 43 impactforce.
Poor commando he will go down and take 7,5 for each frontpart, the atlas still stays, but his hip and legs have taken 20 damage each.


Time of the knockdown can be calculated too. Would be better then a flat time.
There will be a threshold, the animation for go down and stand up is fixed, lets say its together 4 seconds for the example.
If the total impact force, (the 60000000 from the example above) divided by 10000000 (thats 6 for the example) will be higher then the threshold you will lie down that difference time.

Our poor commando goes down, lies for 2 seconds and stands up (6 seconds together) in front of the bad atlas.

But Sarah, his jennerfriend, shows up and rams the atlas too, her 35 tons give her at 150kps a impactforce of 52. If the atlas dont want to be knocked down by the jenner he has to go faster, 60kph makes his counterforce 57, ...

The atlas gets for 10kph more 13 counterforce, but the jenner gets for 10 tons more only 9 impactforce.

Speed² is the big problem here.
And thats why it needs exhaustive testing and balancing.

Edit:
Maybe i have done some mistakes a 0 to much or less or something like that.
Its really simple and basic in the moment it misses dfa, impacts from the side or back.

Edited by Galenit, 10 September 2013 - 07:18 AM.

[Mehlan]

...also need to take terrain into effect... say 45degree slope, frontal or rear impact and facing relative to slope. Don't necessarily agree on impact to center of gravity. Closer the impact is to the CoG, the less likelihood of knockdown, the farther, the greater chance.. Like being hit in the head or ankle with a strong blow vs the stomach. Starting to see how, complicated it can get though?

[Galenit]

Mehlan, on 10 September 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

...also need to take terrain into effect... say 45degree slope, frontal or rear impact and facing relative to slope. Don't necessarily agree on impact to center of gravity. Closer the impact is to the CoG, the less likelihood of knockdown, the farther, the greater chance.. Like being hit in the head or ankle with a strong blow vs the stomach. Starting to see how, complicated it can get though?

Sure, thats what i say, but i would like a better system. I want knockdowns but i dont want what i have heared from the cb.

Maybe they should start a contest for math-, physics- and it-students, the best system win 1000$ and his name will be showen in the credits. Or drop the $ and give him a free account with 1000000 mc. Or a from all developers signed 3d-print of a mech or what ever ....

Edited by Galenit, 10 September 2013 - 07:26 AM.

[stjobe]

Galenit, on 10 September 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

If they hit frontaly they will both be subjected to 60.000.0000 N and will take the same damage

While I have no issues with your numbers, I'd just like to point out that charging in BT was asymmetrical; the charged 'mech took a lot more damage (attacker's tonnage/10 * hexes moved) than the charging 'mech (target's tonnage/10). For two 'mechs charging each other though, your example works well.

[Imperius]

Again lets get back on topic. I see a ton of Lights vs Heavy debate. This is about ideas for HOW COLLISIONS SHOULD BE IMPLEMENTED!

So far most people seem to agree no knockdowns, some say knockdowns but only at full speed ( although I would suggest it's a random chance to occur with both heavy hitting weapons and full speed) .

I'm happy with damage to the area hit with added dmg depending on speed and tonnage. If you hit an object you are stunned not knocked down but stunned. Depending on the length of time you're stunned would depend on the speed in which you hit, but speed relative to your mech not actual kph. Ex. 10% 20% 30% etc. and depending on the percent of the mechs max speed you hit a wall you're stunned for 10 seconds so 1 second per 10% of the mechs max speed.

Edited by Imperius, 10 September 2013 - 07:44 AM.

[Sam Slade]

Raidyr, on 10 September 2013 - 04:07 AM, said:

it actually didn't sort good pilots out at all so much as it sstuff

Yes it did... but lights are not the issue. Speed as a function of gameplay is in the same place that ERPPC/Gauss builds used to be; that is to say it is ALWAYS an advantage and never a liability. Collisions would add a new element to the game balance and would see quite a few 'leet' players relegated to the 'I can't drive' pile(for a time at least)... this is a good thing

[Kunae]

All of this "theory-crafting" boots nothing.

PGI doesn't give a rat's posterior about our opinions, unless they specifically ask for them.

And then, they will only ask us a very limited and biased question, to provide them with an illusory "mandate from the community", for some stupid and overly complicated "idea" that Paul had in the shower.

[Joseph Mallan]

Galenit, on 10 September 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

f=ma
Force=mass x acceleration
Newton=kg x m/s²

Here is your 100ton, 48kph Atlas:
f =100000 x 13,3² = 17689000 N

Now lets look on a 150kph 25 tons commando
25000 x 41,7² = 43472000 N

That commando has nearly the triple force with 3 times speed and 1/4 weight.

If they hit frontaly they will both be subjected to 60.000.0000 N and will take the same damage, maybe 1 for every 1.000.000N? That would be 60 damage for each of them over the whole hitting site. 60/8=7,5 damage to every part of their front lots for the commando, a little for the atlas.
I would prefer it when the impactpoint would matter to. The commando is still damaged all over for 7,5 damage to all parts in his front (head, torso, sidetorsos, legs, arms) but the atlas gets 20 damage to each leg and his hips (they would be matched to the side and/or fronttorso/s) where the commando hits him.


Knockdowns:
They should be calculated from impactforce, counterforce and bonus.

Knockdown happens when the impactforce+bonus is higher then the counterforce+bouns

Impactforce is the 43.472.000n from the ramming commando.
Counterforce is the 17689000N from the rammed Atlas (lets say they ram frontal)
Bonus dependes on one the following: chassi, highdifference, quirk.

Bonus:
Chassi:
Some are build for ramming they have a higher chance to knock down someone,
some have a low mass center they have a higher chance to not be knocked down.
Chassibonus i let out this time, they are both normal mechs.

Highdifference:
Basing on the relationship of the mass centers (i think the gyro) of both mechs.
The commando gets the impact all over the front, nothing for him then.
The atlas gets the impact to his legs and hips, thats not over his gyro, he gets a bonus of 2x his counterforce (now he has 34000000N)
If the command would have jumped, if he could, to the atlas face, the atlas would have a counterforcebonus of 0,5x (halfing it) becaus he was hit above his center mass.

Quirk:
Another number to balance mechs, or remove balance like the speedthingy do ....
The atlas has a counterknockdown quirk that gives him flat 1000000N bonus for counterforce
The commando gets nothing again.

The atlas has now 44 counterforce, the commando stay at 43 impactforce.
Poor commando he will go down and take 7,5 for each frontpart, the atlas still stays, but his hip and legs have taken 20 damage each.


Time of the knockdown can be calculated too. Would be better then a flat time.
There will be a threshold, the animation for go down and stand up is fixed, lets say its together 4 seconds for the example.
If the total impact force, (the 60000000 from the example above) divided by 10000000 (thats 6 for the example) will be higher then the threshold you will lie down that difference time.

Our poor commando goes down, lies for 2 seconds and stands up (6 seconds together) in front of the bad atlas.

But Sarah, his jennerfriend, shows up and rams the atlas too, her 35 tons give her at 150kps a impactforce of 52. If the atlas dont want to be knocked down by the jenner he has to go faster, 60kph makes his counterforce 57, ...

The atlas gets for 10kph more 13 counterforce, but the jenner gets for 10 tons more only 9 impactforce.

Speed² is the big problem here.
And thats why it needs exhaustive testing and balancing.

Edit:
Maybe i have done some mistakes a 0 to much or less or something like that.
Its really simple and basic in the moment it misses dfa, impacts from the side or back.

I haven't done that kinda math in 20 years! So to paraphrase Col. Jack O'Neill, Dumb it down for me!

[carl kerensky]

Mehlan, on 10 September 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

Now why would terrain need tweaking? After all your wanting 'realism', seems that the terrain is pretty fine for that if the system takes into account size/mass based in regards to these drops/slopes and elevation changes... you may see a goat climbing or traversing a cliff face, but not an elephant... The bigger they are, the harder they fall. Facehugging should not allowed? Why, because you don't like it? Heaven forbid a short-range based mech get inside the arc of a long range mech. Collisions take place, mechs take damage from contact...maybe it needs to be tweaked, but there are no forcefields keeping mechs from making contact.

Let me clarify for ya. I never said I was against face hugging but if your going to do that you will at the price of taking some kind of damage. So if your a lighter mech guess what your going to take the brunt of the damage ie lighter armor and chassis. Speed and force must be accounted for of course. Also it's the mech interaction with the terrain that may need refining. So ultimately myself I want the realistic approach. Just makes you a better pilot...eh

[Livewyr]

Stjobe: I'd be willing to forgo the TT damage values in this iteration, simply because it's soooo much easier to collide in this game.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Raidyr, on 10 September 2013 - 04:25 AM, said:

I was under the impression that lights traded armor, weapons, and raw tonnage to mount either for their mobility advantage.

The "lights brawling heavies meta" is hardly a meta. The only reason it even happens is because of bad netcode, which isn't a balance issue. If it does get fixed then Jenners and maybe Raven 3L's will still be brawling by using their mobility to stay under the guns of heavier mechs, something which is part of the dynamic of Mechwarrior. It's balanced by the fact that if they get hit once they take a lot more damage than the person they are brawling with because they got shot by bigger guns and have less armor.

Also anecdotally my Jenner gets wrecked by Cataphracts and larger mechs on an hourly basis. I'm willing to buy that I'm just a bad light pilot or there are some amazing heavy/assault pilots out there but I certainly don't feel like an all-powerful force of robotic nature when 3 UAC/5's or twin gauss core me out in 3 seconds.

Raidyr, they do trade up armor and firepower for speed, that doesn't mean it should be without risks. (Especially since the speed defense attribute doesn't degrade with successive hits..until a leg is removed- unlike Armor which takes damage and doesn't regrow.)

I'm not saying lights shouldn't be able to go fast, I'm saying they should not be able to exercise the unlimited defense attribute (speed) without the risks that inherently come with it. If you go so fast that you can't control what your mech runs into.. you shouldn't get off scott free for that.

Lights are not meant to stand up to assault mechs. (evasion tanking) They only get away with that because there is no drawback to evasion tanking. (Unlike Armor tanking, which wears down.) Light's are meant to scout (duh) and to perform guerrilla attacks. (Hit and run attacks, ambushes, etc..)

[Kunae]

Livewyr, on 10 September 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

Lights are not meant to stand up to assault mechs. (evasion tanking) They only get away with that because there is no drawback to evasion tanking. (Unlike Armor tanking, which wears down.) Light's are meant to scout (duh) and to perform guerrilla attacks. (Hit and run attacks, ambushes, etc..)

Big old load of bull-pucky there.

[Livewyr]

Kunae, on 10 September 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

Big old load of bull-pucky there.

ok.. feel free to explain why...

[Donnie Silveray]

Collision should be handled in a somewhat controlled fashion. IE avoid ragdolling. It's kind of silly if say two hunchbacks round a corner and faceplant and are 'collided' but are still 'on their feet'. More or less there should be a threshold for a mech to stagger or rebalance, not go right into ragdoll as that'd be rather unoptimal and kind of unimmersive gameplay. Certainly a commander slamming into an Atlas might knock it down and cause both sides some damage, but say two slow Atlai walking into each other, unless they have more force than I imagine, probably wouldn't knock themselves over. Similarly a light getting a small nudge or glancing contact probably shouldn't ragdoll but stagger instead.