158 replies to this topic

[Agent 0 Fortune]

So far the ideas I like the most are a minimum speed requirement to knock down a opponent, so that brushing against a mech at the starting area doesn't knock them down (although I suspect a few comandos who refuse to leave the starting area for at least 30 seconds will still get trampled).
I am still on the fence about unique characteristics based on mech size. Some of the heavy/assault mechs already have a big advantage due to their smaller sillouette, while many medium mechs are as large as heavy mechs (without the mass) which makes them easy targets.

[Almond Brown]

Make sure all calculations include the in-ability to have Grievers use the Collision tool to ruin your gaming experience. Those who got "Dragon Bowled" will understand.

[Kraven Kor]

The game needs collisions because when two large metal vehicles collide at any speed, damage occurs, physics happen, and this game needs MORE IMMERSION not LESS. Please.

But it doesn't need to be like it was.

Just make "collisions" more of knock than a knock down.

You hit another mech, you take damage, and lose speed while your mech staggers and sways and the gyro tries to compensate and get your feet back under you. You don't fall down, you don't stop, you don't even fully lose control though you do move slower for a moment and have a bit less ability to aim.

If you get hit, you get knocked around with a similar effect, but your speed change is based on the angle of impact - they hit you from behind, you get accelerated forward for a moment. They hit you in the side, you list and stagger to the side for a moment.

Head on collision, both mechs stop and have to back up away from each other unless they hit hard enough to knock each other back or something.

Falling down sucks. Nobody wants that (well, mostly nobody )

Collisions need to be a bigger deal than they are. And none of this namby-pamby "no friendly collisions" BS. Two metal objects collide, and physics happens. Period.

[Kunae]

Livewyr, on 10 September 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

ok.. feel free to explain why...

Because you are stating your opinion as "fact".

[Kraven Kor]

Similarly, Autocannons and missiles need some "knock" effect that isn't as annoying and overpowering as it once was, and mechs in the air need to be moved by impacts.

But, yeah, we will never get anything nearly so cool and immersive, and if we did, half the players would rage saying "BUT BUT I CAN'T AIM WHEN BEING SHOT!" That's the freaking point!

[Mehlan]

Kraven Kor, on 10 September 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

Similarly, Autocannons and missiles need some "knock" effect that isn't as annoying and overpowering as it once was, and mechs in the air need to be moved by impacts.

But, yeah, we will never get anything nearly so cool and immersive, and if we did, half the players would rage saying "BUT BUT I CAN'T AIM WHEN BEING SHOT!" That's the freaking point!

....couldn't be anything to do with code complexity, system reqs etc either. I have no real issue with the current system, some minor annoyances, but to what a few are claiming in regards to impact, no.

[Livewyr]

Kunae, on 10 September 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

Because you are stating your opinion as "fact".

Interesting:

A:
What exactly is:

Kunae, on 10 September 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

Big old load of bull-pucky there.

then?


B: Breaking down what I said:

Livewyr, on 10 September 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

Lights are not meant to stand up to assault mechs. (evasion tanking) First Assertion.
They only get away with that because there is no drawback to evasion tanking. First supporting evidence: (lack of knockdowns or collisions removes risk of putting largest engine in mech for maximum evasion)
(Unlike Armor tanking, which wears down.) Second supporting evidence: (compared to heavy mech defenses that have the comparative drawback of degradation.)

Light's are meant to scout (duh) Second Assertion. First supporting evidence unspoken: The role that requires speed to be competitively effective.
and to perform guerrilla attacks. (Hit and run attacks, ambushes, etc..) Second supporting Evidence: The attack role available to someone with high speed, and low armor.

(Research Topics/Papers are just "someone's opinion [assertion] with supporting evidence..")

[dario03]

Increase damage and add knock down but make it hard to happen. Like make it so both mechs need to be moving at near max speed with turning affecting the chances of falling. And make it so if one mech falls the other is likely to fall as well or at least get kind of thrown off and have to stagger a bit. Basically don't allow dragon bowling with just 1 on 1. And I know it doesn't add to immersion but I wouldn't change how allies hitting each other is done since I don't want to add ways of griefing (at least not in pug games, the 12v12 can have it since I would hope your teammates wouldn't do that).

[Mehlan]

Why don't you show where a light 'stands up to an assault' then? They are not going head to head with assaults... the are using hit/run, ambush etc... in short they are doing what they are supposed to do. If there is an incline in the way, it they lose speed, if there is a sufficient 'drop', they take damage from it and lose speed, or use jump jets and lose speed. The attempted use of RPG terminology to apply to a FPS is a stretch and a bad one at that.

[Galenit]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 September 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

I haven't done that kinda math in 20 years! So to paraphrase Col. Jack O'Neill, Dumb it down for me!

Let out the lines with numbers, than its dumbed down.

Short:
A big slow mech has less force then a fast light mech, this will count for damage,
they get both the same damage but its divided over the parts that are hit.

From speed and weight of both the chance to knockdown is calculated,
but it also matters where they are hit and what kind of mech it is .

The length of the knockdown has a shortest duration, its the animation time of falling and standing up,
but it can be a little bit longer with a lot of force involved.

I have let out, in both posts: Angel of hitting, side of hitting, movement directions of both, angel of terrain, ...

Mallan, stop here and go to the last line.


I missed a part.
There should be a threshold for beeing knocked dowen be implemented.
Only compare the forces and bonus will lead to one of two is knocked down every time it happens.
Randomness maybe, but better would be a simple number that you must have over your opponents force, like 10 or 20% more force to him. Lets they the gyro can compensate some impactforce, then you have to overcome his counterforce and his gyrothreshold.
Other condition can be implemented to, like effecting the standing one after a knockdown too and so on ...

As i said, complicated ****.

Edited by Galenit, 10 September 2013 - 09:26 AM.

[Livewyr]

Mehlan, on 10 September 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

Why don't you show where a light 'stands up to an assault' then? They are not going head to head with assaults... the are using hit/run, ambush etc... in short they are doing what they are supposed to do. If there is an incline in the way, it they lose speed, if there is a sufficient 'drop', they take damage from it and lose speed, or use jump jets and lose speed. The attempted use of RPG terminology to apply to a FPS is a stretch and a bad one at that.

The circle of death, is a brawl...not using hit and run or ambush, etc.. (and again, not saying it shouldn't be possible, saying it shouldn't be virtually risk free like it is now...[pardon the pun])

and Evasion tank *does* work as it is exactly what is going on.
A brawling Atlas tanks by absorbing more damage than any other mech out there, like an MMORPG traditional tank...
A fast little spider evasion tanks by simply avoiding damage due to speed and size..like an MMORPG evasion tank's reflex/dodge/etc...

[Mehlan]

Quote

The circle of death, is a brawl...not using hit and run or ambush, etc.. (and again, not saying it shouldn't be possible, saying it shouldn't be virtually risk free like it is now...[pardon the pun])

A brawl involves melee, what you describe is pitting speed and turning radius of one tech against the turning and torso twisting ability of a mech... and/or the movement speed and turning radius of two mechs (typicaly lights) against one another. That is NOT a 'BRAWL', and it is not 'risk free' by any means...

Quote

and Evasion tank *does* work as it is exactly what is going on.
A brawling Atlas tanks by absorbing more damage than any other mech out there, like an MMORPG traditional tank...
A fast little spider evasion tanks by simply avoiding damage due to speed and size..like an MMORPG evasion tank's reflex/dodge/etc...

No, in the mmorpg the 'EV' is relatively motionless in comparision, 'aiming' virtually non-existant, as are the relevant attack systems. IF your case/example applied the benefit would apply even if the mech were NOT moving, or moving at 'slow' speed and regardless of terrain. Gale, I was trying to....point out in general (ie: not directed @ you per se) how complicated an...accurate system could be.

[AlixX]

If they add the tonnage limits on the team as well it would kill the amount of heavies that are dominating the battlefield these past months. I hardly see teams with more mediums than heavy/assaults. This update could make the whole lights vs assault a lot better due to a more divers team.

Ontopic
I would like special modules or items that can be attached on your mech to increase knockdown damage or to reduce incoming damage. Off course these modules should take space and tonnage on you mech as a drawback and should be visible for the enemy team.

Perhaps there should be a special hunkerdown stance that would make you unknockble but as a drawback kills your movement for at least a duration of time. Like say a heavy is going for the knockdown and you prepare yourself for impact and get a defensive bonus for that.

I dont get the whole moaning about team damage. Yes it will be there and yes its gonna be annoying but it will make people THINK about where they move should than just running to a position to get a good shot and not noticing a friendly mech standing in your way...

Edited by AlixX, 10 September 2013 - 10:17 AM.

[Kunae]

Livewyr, on 10 September 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

Interesting:

A:
What exactly is:

then?


B: Breaking down what I said:


(Research Topics/Papers are just "someone's opinion [assertion] with supporting evidence..")

Break down what you want it doesn't matter.

You are claiming that lights aren't supposed to be able to do anything other than scout. That is your opinion, not a fact.

As your premise is wrong, the rest of your post, that I had quoted, is irrelevant.

[Livewyr]

Mehlan, on 10 September 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

A brawl involves melee, what you describe is pitting speed and turning radius of one tech against the turning and torso twisting ability of a mech... and/or the movement speed and turning radius of two mechs (typicaly lights) against one another. That is NOT a 'BRAWL', and it is not 'risk free' by any means...

I'm assuming by "melee" you mean fighting up close and personal (since there is no physical attack)

And lights very much fight up close and in person, that's where they use their speed, at around 30-100 meters.

it's a lot less risky than brawling with an Atlas, in an Atlas.. Atlas versus Atlas- you are GOING to get hit, repeatedly, and there is no retreat.

Circle strafing an Atlas in a Spider, you *might* get hit if the person can aim/time well.. and if you need to retreat- that is no problem.

Comparatively risk free.
Armor tanking: Use armor to protect self until it degrades to nothingness. (There is no doubt you're going to get hit, with everything)
Evasion tanking: Use speed/maneuverability to protect self. (*If* you get hit, it can be bad...if they're using a frontloaded high damage weapon)

Mehlan, on 10 September 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

No, in the mmorpg the 'EV' is relatively motionless in comparision, 'aiming' virtually non-existant, as are the relevant attack systems. IF your case/example applied the benefit would apply even if the mech were NOT moving, or moving at 'slow' speed and regardless of terrain.

Just because MMORPG's are using RNG and percentages to simulate what light mechs are actually doing doesn't mean that light mechs aren't EV-Tanking. As a matter of fact.. they're just actually doing it rather than having an RNG/Stat combination determine what they succeed or fail at.

[Livewyr]

Kunae, on 10 September 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

Break down what you want it doesn't matter.

You are claiming that lights aren't supposed to be able to do anything other than scout. That is your opinion, not a fact.

As your premise is wrong, the rest of your post, that I had quoted, is irrelevant.

Normally.. I don't insult one's intelligence..but ignoring half my statement in order to declare the whole thing invalid speaks volumes of a Reading Comprehension deficit.

Reread the post.. pay particular attention to the "Guerilla Warfare- Hit and run attacks and ambushes" part.

[Kunae]

Livewyr, on 10 September 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

Normally.. I don't insult one's intelligence..but ignoring half my statement in order to declare the whole thing invalid speaks volumes of a Reading Comprehension deficit.

Reread the post.. pay particular attention to the "Guerilla Warfare- Hit and run attacks and ambushes" part.

Again, that is your opinion.

Let me break it down for you:

Assault -> eats Heavy.
Heavy -> eats Medium.
Medium -> eats Light.
Light -> eats Assaults.

That is the circle of life, as defined by PGI.

Now, of course there are exceptions to these rules, as player skill comes into play.

[Livewyr]

Kunae, on 10 September 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

Again, that is your opinion.

Let me break it down for you:

Assault -> eats Heavy.
Heavy -> eats Medium.
Medium -> eats Light.
Light -> eats Assaults.

That is the circle of life, as defined by PGI.

Now, of course there are exceptions to these rules, as player skill comes into play.

Would you like to throw some supporting points in there? Otherwise.. it looks like an opinion, stated as fact..with a claim that PGI says it's fact too..

(Were you here were collisions were in? Being a light pilot had a pretty good chance of having your match ended early with a tumble in front of an assault mech if you aren't careful.)

[Imperius]

Get back on topic! This is about how to implement collisions not a heavy vs light debate. If you want to have that debate create a topic for it.

[Mehlan]

Imperius, on 10 September 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

Get back on topic! This is about how to implement collisions not a heavy vs light debate. If you want to have that debate create a topic for it.

The reality is, that you cannot discuss the topic without examining how it impacts the mech classifications.