21 replies to this topic

[Alondo]

So after auditing the new mechanics for Gauss and PPC's, I have to say I don't like either.
Also I don't understand why they made such a complicated "fix" for Gauss Rifles especially.

Why not run the cool down for Gauss and PPC's to 10 seconds? That would put them firmly in the sniper/support role without the need for firing delays for the Gauss. A 10 second cool down would definitely force me to have other weapons on board for those inevitable times when those nasty lights get in my face. Also with that cool down time, I'd better make sure that my shots count cause it's going to be a long time, relatively, before I get another one.

And on the PPC front, well I hate them now. Not because of the heat either. Keep the heat and I'd be fine with that. What bugs me to no end is that PPC's have flight time.

PPC's are near light speed weapons. At the ranges we have in MW:O that means there is effectively no flight time between when the weapon fires and when damage impacts your target.

I guess Mechwarrior 2 is the culprit for this. Remember the slow moving "Balls-O-Death"?
Whereas the first Mechwarrior, as primitive as it was, had properly functioning PPC's.

I guess what it boils down to, is I want more SIM back in MW:O.

P.S.
I do like that they buffed the velocity of the Gauss. Cause that makes sense from a Sim point of view. Speed kills.

[Waking One]

oh yes hitscan 10dmg weapons what could possibly go wrong

even if the cooldown is 20 seconds it wouldnt change anything

[Alondo]

Waking One, on 11 September 2013 - 12:20 AM, said:

oh yes hitscan 10dmg weapons what could possibly go wrong

even if the cooldown is 20 seconds it wouldnt change anything

Where do you get hitscan from? It would hit as it usually does, just without flight time.
Did I miss something?

[Waking One]

Alondo, on 11 September 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

Where do you get hitscan from? It would hit as it usually does, just without flight time.
Did I miss something?

that's what hitscan is, you hit immediately as you press the button, no flight time

[Alondo]

Waking One, on 11 September 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

that's what hitscan is, you hit immediately as you press the button, no flight time

And what is the problem with this? I would still have to wait 10 seconds for the next shot.
I truly don't understand the problem.

Also I thought hitscan applied to lasers, as they scan across the target because they have a firing duration.

[xenoglyph]

I really hate it when the realism argument comes up. When designing a game you have to take some liberties and do creative things to make things interesting to use yet balanced overall. Unrealistic/different velocities is a good thing and a useful tool for weapon balance. I think the PPC velocity did get nerfed too much, but having to lead targets adds a necessary component of skill to the game.

I hate the Gauss changes as well, but pulling the realism card just doesn't cut it for me. They have plenty of options available to them now to make them balanced and different, and many more they haven't even thought of yet. I hope they keep looking, but hire some interns or something to do it.

Edited by xenoglyph, 11 September 2013 - 12:53 AM.

[Alondo]

xenoglyph, on 11 September 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:

I really hate it when the realism argument comes up. When designing a game you have to take some liberties and do creative things to make things interesting to use yet balanced overall. Unrealistic/different velocities is a good thing and a useful tool for weapon balance. I think the PPC velocity did get nerfed too much, but having to lead targets adds a necessary component of skill to the game.

I hate the Gauss changes as well, but pulling the realism card just doesn't cut it for me. They have plenty of options available to them now to make them balanced and different, and many more they haven't even thought of yet. I hope they keep looking, but hire some interns or something to do it.

But I'm not just playing the realism card.
Mechwarrior 1 had properly acting PPC's and that game worked.
And like I said before, the balance comes from a long recycle time. You see, you can have some realism and also balance, as well as "Flavor".
This will not break the game. It WILL add a bit of realism, yet it will still be a fun stompy robot game. I truly don't get the resistance to the idea.

[Marmon Rzohr]

I was very sceptical about these changes myself, however they do makes sense in the following way:
That which made PPC+Gauss snipers so OP was the negligable effort required to use one, both while sniping and in brawls.
There is nothing wrong with a very powerful build so long as it requires an equal amount of skill to use. If you bumped the recycle time, mechs that carried 2xGauss or PPC+Gauss would be completely defensless in a brawl. Taking backup weapons solves nothing. 2 Medium Lasers aren't going to scare anything off.

This way Gauss snipers can still defend themselves, it's just harder. And that's ok. If someone can land 2 alphas in row onto a running light with a charge-up weapon, they deserve to triumph.

Al least that's my view of things

[Gaan Cathal]

Alondo, on 11 September 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

Also I thought hitscan applied to lasers, as they scan across the target because they have a firing duration.

Hitscan is a method of determining weapon hits whereby there is no time between the weapon firing and the hit registering, most older FPS games used it for everything except obviously 'heavy' projectiles like rockets etc because of the processing needs of projectile velocities. It's mostly fallen by the wayside in serious shooters now that processors can keep up.

Alondo, on 11 September 2013 - 01:00 AM, said:

But I'm not just playing the realism card.
Mechwarrior 1 had properly acting PPC's and that game worked.
And like I said before, the balance comes from a long recycle time. You see, you can have some realism and also balance, as well as "Flavor".
This will not break the game. It WILL add a bit of realism, yet it will still be a fun stompy robot game. I truly don't get the resistance to the idea.

The resistance comes from the fact that it would make the PPC so damn good it would be idiotic to mount any other energy weapon.

In Mechwarrior the most efficient way to kill is by putting all your damage in the one compartment (CT or Cockpit). Currently PPCs are the only non-ammunition-requiring weapon (i.e. massively light) that does this, and does so with a high damage value to boot. Lasers, on the other hand, have their damage spread over a beam duration and require the aim to be held correctly for that duration (a PPC only needs to be on target for a split second). In an attempt to balance this (and conform to reality) lasers are hitscan weapons such that the need to maintain aim is (theoretically) balanced by the lack of need to lead the target.

A hitscan PPC would be the following, in contrast: Ammoless. Long range. Pinpoint damage. No lead needed.

It would literally require you to place the crosshair on a target for a split second and click the mousebutton. It'd be the easiest weapon in the game to use, and one of the most powerful at the same time. This would be bad.

[xengk]

Alondo, on 11 September 2013 - 01:00 AM, said:

Mechwarrior 1 had properly acting PPC's and that game worked.

If I remember right, the old Mechwarrior 1 DOS the PPC function exactly like a normal laser in that game.
It makes other laser invalid whenever you can pilot a mech with PPC.

found video

Edited by xengk, 11 September 2013 - 01:37 AM.

[Naja]

Hitscan PPC's isn't a great idea. MWO isn't particularly fast paced. Lasers are hitscan, sure, but you have to maintain aim over the beam duration to put all that damage on place, and joe schmo has difficulty with that, so the damage get's spread around a bit. The better pilots will torso twist, and spread the damage around, or to less damaged components.

Intant hit PPC's give no chance to mitigate damage, and make long range shots as easy as scratching yourself. With no need to lead targets, maps like alpine would see the PPC rise to godlike prominence.

And as xeno said, 'real life' ideas kinda go out the window when playing in an alternate universe. Who's to say physics doesn't operate differently in BT?

[OneEyed Jack]

xenoglyph, on 11 September 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:

I really hate it when the realism argument comes up.

It's not arguing for realism to want it to make some kind of sense. We have to have a certain suspension of disbelief to get immersed in this game at all, but even sci-fi needs to be explained in a way that you can say "ok, physics may argue, but at least it makes sense from a layman's point of view."

[Modo44]

Alondo, on 11 September 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

And what is the problem with this? I would still have to wait 10 seconds for the next shot.
I truly don't understand the problem.

A part of each laser shot misses, because it arrives over the duration of the beam. The reduced beam duration is the main draw of pulse lasers. If they ever insta-hit, they will become pretty awesome. Combining that that with long range would make all other weapons irrelevant.

[Naja]

OneEyed Jack, on 11 September 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

It's not arguing for realism to want it to make some kind of sense. We have to have a certain suspension of disbelief to get immersed in this game at all, but even sci-fi needs to be explained in a way that you can say "ok, physics may argue, but at least it makes sense from a layman's point of view."

So many things in BT makes absolutely no sense if you bind them by our current undertanding of physics and the natural world. Why fixate on this particular one? And does the layman really have any issue with with slower than lightspeed PPC's? It's never bothered me in the slightest.

[Alondo]

Marmon Rzohr, on 11 September 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

I was very sceptical about these changes myself, however they do makes sense in the following way:
That which made PPC+Gauss snipers so OP was the negligable effort required to use one, both while sniping and in brawls.
There is nothing wrong with a very powerful build so long as it requires an equal amount of skill to use. If you bumped the recycle time, mechs that carried 2xGauss or PPC+Gauss would be completely defensless in a brawl. Taking backup weapons solves nothing. 2 Medium Lasers aren't going to scare anything off.

This way Gauss snipers can still defend themselves, it's just harder. And that's ok. If someone can land 2 alphas in row onto a running light with a charge-up weapon, they deserve to triumph.

Al least that's my view of things

Again I don't see the problem.
With the long recycle time on Gauss and PPC's you would not want to boat a bunch of them, therefore encouraging a more balanced build.
Like with my LRM mechs, i have to consider at least, to some degree, a close range defense weapon. LRM's lose all damage inside 180 meters even.
That's the trade off with these weapons, for long range firepower you have to sacrifice brawling ability. This will encourage you to be a better player I think.
Sure at first players will boat PPC/Gauss builds, till they figure out that they are vulnerable to any light that decided to take them on. That's a choice you'll have to make when setting up your mech.

Snipers should snipe, Brawlers should brawl, and I shouldn't have to lead with my PPC's.

All I see is them nerfing Gauss and PPC's to make this game far too heavily biased toward brawling.

[Modo44]

Alondo, on 11 September 2013 - 03:56 AM, said:

Again I don't see the problem.

Yes, we know. Too many trees and all that. A long recycle time does not discourage boating, it actually makes it more sensible. 1 ERPPC would be {Scrap} when shot every 10s, but take 6, and you have a glorious alphastrike with forced time to aim it well. People have already noticed how the Gauss charging makes them take better shots, not worse ones. Your idea would work in a similar fashion.

[MustrumRidcully]

It is wrong to claim that hitscan would automatically be imbalanced.

It's an advantage. Like any advantage, you can try to figure out how powerful it is and compensate accordingly, for example, by lowering the damage or increasing the cooldown time.

A hit scan PPC with a cooldown of 10 seconds would probably end up being underpowered, not overpowered. All you need to do with a PPC sniper is charge him and then overwhelm him with your DPS. Unlike the 4 second cooldown sniper, he won't have enough time to deliver any critical counter-damage.

That said ,it's not really needed either, so meh.

[Alondo]

Modo44, on 11 September 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

Yes, we know. Too many trees and all that. A long recycle time does not discourage boating, it actually makes it more sensible. 1 ERPPC would be {Scrap} when shot every 10s, but take 6, and you have a glorious alphastrike with forced time to aim it well. People have already noticed how the Gauss charging makes them take better shots, not worse ones. Your idea would work in a similar fashion.

On a side note I did say that the heat levels on PPC's are fine now. I'd love you to alpha 6 ERPPC's at the current heat levels.

Back to the point.

So you Alpha me with your 6 ER, or Regular PPC's, then what? You better hope that killed me, and that I didn't see where the attack came from, cause I'm coming for you.

And another point or realism. You have a recycle time of 10 seconds, to which you'll probably add at least 1-2 seconds of aiming time, because you want that shot to actually hit. So I figure around 11-12 seconds minimum between shots for these "OP" instant hit god weapons.
Hope you have something to back up those 6 PPC's.

Naja, on 11 September 2013 - 02:12 AM, said:

So many things in BT makes absolutely no sense if you bind them by our current undertanding of physics and the natural world. Why fixate on this particular one? And does the layman really have any issue with with slower than lightspeed PPC's? It's never bothered me in the slightest.

Naja, I've been fixating on slow PPC's since Mechwarrior 2.
You notice that I'm not complaining about the ridiculously short ranges every weapon has in this game, or heat as a balancing mechanic, or the idea of Mechs in general being a death trap because they tower over everything making them a giant target.
I just want this one thing.
I have learned to accept all the weirdness that is the BT/MW:O universe, but having to lead with a near lightspeed weapon is just too much. Especially when there are better ways to balance the system and still have a tiny bit of realism.

[Modo44]

Alondo, on 11 September 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

So you Alpha me with your 6 ER, or Regular PPC's, then what? You better hope that killed me, and that I didn't see where the attack came from, cause I'm coming for you.

Still too many trees, but this is my last try. Rare alphastrikes was how PPC/ERPPC boats got their kills. 60 pinpoint damage one-shots many mechs. You are proposing to make it even easier by removing the need to lead the target. Even overheating doesn't solve that, because 6xPPC just barely pushes a Stalker over the limit, so the self-damage is negligible.

[Marmon Rzohr]

Alondo, on 11 September 2013 - 03:56 AM, said:

Again I don't see the problem.
With the long recycle time on Gauss and PPC's you would not want to boat a bunch of them, therefore encouraging a more balanced build.
Like with my LRM mechs, i have to consider at least, to some degree, a close range defense weapon. LRM's lose all damage inside 180 meters even.
That's the trade off with these weapons, for long range firepower you have to sacrifice brawling ability. This will encourage you to be a better player I think.
Sure at first players will boat PPC/Gauss builds, till they figure out that they are vulnerable to any light that decided to take them on. That's a choice you'll have to make when setting up your mech.

Snipers should snipe, Brawlers should brawl, and I shouldn't have to lead with my PPC's.

All I see is them nerfing Gauss and PPC's to make this game far too heavily biased toward brawling.

The problem with this line of balancing is that mechs need to be effective at what they do

To snipe at all you need at least 30 points of accurate damage at 500+m. Otherwise you might as well be spitting at them. The same goes for close combat. If you're lugging a PPC in a brawl, that's 7 tonnes you're not using, 7 tonnes that the other specialist mech has invested into 2xSRM6 and is gonna destroy you with that difference in firepower. And the 5 potshots you took with that PPC aren't going to deter anyone.

Think about role warfare.

Making weapons overly specialized would not promote varied builds, but even more specialization. If you gave PPCs and Gauss 10 sec cooldown, that would only mean that any mech using them would either have to be heavy enough to mount them and considerable firepower on the side or mount something like 2xGauss and 2xPPC and a XL200, because the 2 MLs it could mount to use as defense aren't going to make much of a difference, so you might as well build to do what 30+ tons of your mech are already invested in as best as possible.

At least that's the way it would go in organized play, I think

P.S. LRMs can be used with backup weapons, but that's because they are incredibly damaging and not very heavy AND balanced out by the fact they are very hard to use. If you made all the ranged weapons like this, it would not make a very fun game and in anything but the best organized play, brawlers would DOMINATE.

Edited by Marmon Rzohr, 11 September 2013 - 08:06 AM.