Consider this: In your 90 to 100 ton assault mech, trade double heatsinks for single heatsinks.
No. Seriously. Try it.
This was with 40-ish standard heatsinks, so the power of "20" real double heatsinks, of course with lower maximum capacity than DHS due to some sort of bug (the alpha strike amount never even closely matches up, like the difference of 17 heat in some cases), but look at how fast that sinks.
Scary, isn't it?
Remember this is recorded with the ER PPCs at 13 heat (I'll have a new one recorded sometime today and put up tomorrow after I clear the Fraps drive of recent videos, which means lots of uploads today).
Although if capacities were hard-set and not forever rising the number of builds that could be alpha striked would be drastically reduced (to ? small lasers, 8 ML lasers, 3 LLs, 3 PPCs, 2 ER PPCs, and most autocannon and some smaller LRM / SRM builds) and this setup would never be possible.
But let's feel free to use the system as PGI has designed it, as it is in every sense of the phrase, working as intended. Remember to limit your PPCs or ER PPCs to 2 at a time, every half second. If possible, back up your PPCs or ER PPCs with medium or small versions of pulse or standard lasers in order to help protect yourself against otherwise impossible to hit light mechs.
Nothing is deadlier to a spider than a cluster of pulse lasers backed up by MGs.
Good luck out there, Mechwarriors.
Additional tips:
Your cooling will go even faster up to your knees in water (2 standard heatsinks in your feet turn into True 2.0 cooling DHS). Faster than that if you get up to your hips (all 4 of your leg SHS turn into true 2.0 cooling DHS -- if it clan double heatsinks into your legs, they would turn from 1.4 'DHS' to '3.8' DHS and only one per leg, totaling '7.6' cooling. This way, those 2 SHS per leg turn into '4.0', totaling '8.0' cooling).
SHS in groups are much harder to destroy than DHS.
SHS must be en masse if you want to protect your weapons and ammo with it, "just one or two" won't do the job so if they are not loaded in heavily your weapons will be easier to destroy than if you stuffed 'em with DHS. Be warned.
Don't test the heat scale system. It'll still whip your backside with an insane punishment. Remember, you cool a LOT faster, but you can't have as much capacity/threshold to shut down, you'll get punished worse than with DHS.
People will think you're cheating. Remember to state it's single heatsinks and working as intended.
If you've found great success in trying this, remember to leave a like and a comment telling of your experience.
Also if you have the time, please tell me if you'd prefer that heatsinks cool this fast, but not let you fire 'as much at once'. I.E., something like twin ER PPCs at the same time and you shut down, mechwarrior 3 style.
(Note: Listed alpha strike limits assume that Paul's heat scale system does not exist to demonstrate maximum possible weapons fired at once.)
Ok, and how fast does it cool on Terra Therma? Doesn't seem a particularly strong build damage wise anyway, especially considering how much cover there is on most maps and how most games you end up in knife fight range very quickly, so your sniper weapons will get low overall damage.
Earl White, on 13 September 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:
Ok, and how fast does it cool on Terra Therma? Doesn't seem a particularly strong build damage wise anyway, especially considering how much cover there is on most maps and how most games you end up in knife fight range very quickly, so your sniper weapons will get low overall damage.
It's no more damaging than the feared twin ER PPC + Gauss rifle build that cataphracts use, but it's got a lot more armor. Also you must remember, PGI doesn't seem to consider ER PPCs to be sniper weapons. For the longest time they were geared to, and stated as, brawling weapons. There is no minimum range to ER PPCs, and no minimum range to Gauss Rifle. Every shot is a strike of 35 damage and pinpoint.
What are you going to do to defend yourself at knife fight range in a heavy or assault mech? Hold lasers on me for a second? A single volley is an instant kill in close range against most medium mechs. A stationary light mech, chances are it's dead in a single shot. Assault? Aim just right, single shot death. Heavy? Single shot death.
On Terra Therma it'll still cool faster than your DHS. Remember that each volley being fired in that video is the same heat as firing 6 and a half medium lasers at the same time. Today, it'll be the same as firing 7 and a half medium lasers at the same time, and it still cools faster.
I run 2xERPPCs and a Gauss Rifle (or I used to before the de-sync nerf) on my Muromets. You just need to manage your heat for that. Now I use an AC20 instead. Always used an ST engine so no loss really, more damage.
The problem with MWO is that it is so far from Battletech now that it barely resembles MechWarrior combat. I know the Mechs explode too fast, but that is a problem with the Mechs, not the weapons. The weapons and Mechs have to fit Battletech norms or you get a very stinted version of MechWarrior gameplay.
It doesn't have to be perfect Battletech, not at all, but the Stock versions of the Mechs must work without a doubt, especially the Inner Sphere stock Mechs. However the stock AWS-9M carries 3xERPPCs which it can only fire 3 times before shutting down, Battletech says 9 salvos before it requires a turn to cool down. Well nine times before shutting down on the 10th salvo is something a pilot can balance out in combat. 2 salvos and shutting down on the 3rd for 10-12 seconds is not playable.
I won't bore you, but if the AWS-9M can't function as a stock Mech due to heat you get GunWarrior, not MechWarrior. And as the game broadens into ClanTech and new weapons it will be unable to adapt and just fall back to nerf everything to vanilla. Vanilla-Warrior?
Look at this MWLL gameplay. Look at all the weapons being fired and the Mechs shrugging it off a good long time. The Atlas pilot is even actually in a bit of a jam, getting focus-fired on and seperated from it's lance.
So it can be done. That said I do like MWO very much and I want it to be the best it can be. I am just giving as honest a viewpoint as I can.
Edited by Lightfoot, 13 September 2013 - 07:27 AM.
It's no more damaging than the feared twin ER PPC + Gauss rifle build that cataphracts use, but it's got a lot more armor. Also you must remember, PGI doesn't seem to consider ER PPCs to be sniper weapons. For the longest time they were geared to, and stated as, brawling weapons. There is no minimum range to ER PPCs, and no minimum range to Gauss Rifle. Every shot is a strike of 35 damage and pinpoint.
What are you going to do to defend yourself at knife fight range in a heavy or assault mech? Hold lasers on me for a second? A single volley is an instant kill in close range against most medium mechs. A stationary light mech, chances are it's dead in a single shot. Assault? Aim just right, single shot death. Heavy? Single shot death.
On Terra Therma it'll still cool faster than your DHS. Remember that each volley being fired in that video is the same heat as firing 6 and a half medium lasers at the same time. Today, it'll be the same as firing 7 and a half medium lasers at the same time, and it still cools faster.
Yeah sure it's pinpoint, but that's why you turn your mech while brawling to spread the damage between shots, if you are at close range (which let's face it is the most common range in games nowadays) your alpha doesn't mean much vs someone in the same chassis but with better dps weapons. Your accuracy also isn't of much use since close range fights you can't miss specific parts anyway (except with srms).
The maps are not really big enough, and have too much cover for this kind of build to be more effective than straight up run and gun brawlers. I don't think Assault mechs are suited to these kind of weapons, they are supposed to be frontline mechs, and perform best/contribute the most in this role. A sniper Atlas is just wasting the primary advantages of the chassis imo.
Edited by Earl White, 13 September 2013 - 07:15 AM.
I'll add some math.
22DHS = 36.8SHS. 12DHS = 36Slot vs 27slot for SHS. (the rest is in the engine not counting slot free HS)
20DHS = 34SHS. 10DHS = 30Slot vs 24 slot for SHS.
Do it if you have money to spare, but don't if you like changing your build. It cost a lot for a not so big difference without double basic.
Also don't do it if you plan to use less than 40SHS, its not worth it.
Remember that you can put HS for only tonnage (slot free) in engine with 275+ rating (one HS per 25 rating). That can make DHS better with big engine than SHS.
Loosing a limb actually hurt more with SHS than with DHS. Loosing 2DHS in the arm is okay loosing 6SHS is not. Something to remember when you do it.
Would you mind linking a build with 40 or more SHS and the build you have (310 STD or XL)? There is no possible way for me to fit it in smurfys. This is the closest I could get.
Would you mind linking a build with 40 or more SHS and the build you have (310 STD or XL)? There is no possible way for me to fit it in smurfys. This is the closest I could get.
Would you mind linking a build with 40 or more SHS and the build you have (310 STD or XL)? There is no possible way for me to fit it in smurfys. This is the closest I could get.
If you are fighting a stationary or slow mech, putting 35 damage into 1 spot with this build is viable. On the other hand, trying to snipe a spider or raven, or even a fast medium moving laterally becomes more difficult to focus, and 2 ERPPC under pressure will rapidly overload the mech.
Also the 15 heat ERPPC is very important, and one reason 15 heat is the sweet spot, because with 13 you do see a bigger "issue"
I built this mech with SHS and DHS. Standard 325 engine on my founders Atlas-D.
With DHS i obtain a 1.41 heat efficiency. Endosteel on the mech.
With SHS on a straight swap I have tonnage problems at 1.19 heat efficiency.
So, engine down to 300. pushes me to a 1.31 Heat efficiency. Now, I need to lose endo-steel.
Takes my mech to 1.43 HE with SHS. with a Standard 200 engine. Every crit slot is gauss,erppc, or std heatsinks. loudout is 2 ERPPC and 1 gauss with 4 tons ammo and a case on it. mech goes 32 kph so i get 0.02 HE extra with SHS.
My total firepower now is a measily 35. If you lose 1 side torso, you lose your gauss and 1 ERPPC, and have little left.
Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 15 September 2013 - 01:16 AM.
Yes, Single Heatsinks can work if you like limited weapons and/or small engines and/or paper-thin armor on assaults. Quit trolling the noobies, Koniving.
Would you mind linking a build with 40 or more SHS and the build you have (310 STD or XL)? There is no possible way for me to fit it in smurfys. This is the closest I could get.
I don't see where Kon says he has a 310 engine. With a 300std and no AMS, I got 42 std heat sinks on it.
It will supposedly take 20 seconds to overheat. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...371939229eb47f7
If the goal is 40 std heat sinks, it will take 18 seconds to overheat.
Actually, I can't use a Gauss rifle any more (not with people shooting at me...and they tend to do that), so what are the results I get if I put an AC/10 instead? I can pack on 43 heat sinks, but the AC/10 makes enough extra heat that it will overheat in 16 seconds. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...800f859c3b38215
With DHS I can only put on 20, and it will supposedly take 14 seconds to overheat. (All these figures are without efficiencies unlocked). http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f381bfd95582df5
...Or, we can give up on the PPC/Gauss meta and move on.
It's all well and good that you can do this with an Atlas, but is it really a good use of an Atlas? I has a skeptical.
P.S.: I'm fiddling with a Highlander and can't get nearly as many heat sinks on it. I could put 37 or so if I was OK with paper armor...Which I'm not, due to the aforementioned people shooting at me. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...09f7c4b43741974
Edited by Liquid Leopard, 15 September 2013 - 09:55 AM.
Liquid Leopard, on 15 September 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:
I don't see where Kon says he has a 310 engine.
His max regular speed in the game he linked was 55.2. It's a STD or XL 310 engine. I just used the guaranteed items stored as a way to rebuild what he said he had. It needs: 310 engine, 40+ heat sinks, 2x ER PPC, 1x Gauss (2 tons ammo), 2x AMS (1 ton ammo).
This is so weird... O.o ? How is this a good build or is just for fun to show it can be done??
In what way has the twin PPC + Gauss build ever not been "good" in the competitive eyes? Especially one that cools down...
40 SHS = 30 capacity + 40 = 70 threshold to shutdown
70 - 30 = 40 / 10 = 4 cooling/second.
Compared to
20 DHS = 30 capacity + 10 DHS (2 times for engine) + 10 DHS (1.4 times for chassis) = 64 threshold to shutdown
64 - 30 = = 34 / 10 = 3.4 cooling/second.
Of course that's at brand new values. After that it's + 20% for DHS capacity (76.8) and + 15% for DHS cooling (3.91) where SHS gets what seems to be 10% (77?) + 7.5% additional cooling (4.3/sec). Although it could be that the SHS doesn't get any capacity increase and exclusively a speed increase, it's really hard to test due to the bug that seems to be associated with it.
Essentially, if you have 20 DHS and I have 40 SHS, I'm superior at the very least in cooling power. And with a twin ER PPC + Gauss build, what else would you use the weight on if you already have a maximum standard engine + maximum armor? More ammo? Missiles to overheat faster with those pesky ghost heat issues and guess work?
Lightfoot, on 13 September 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:
I run 2xERPPCs and a Gauss Rifle (or I used to before the de-sync nerf) on my Muromets. You just need to manage your heat for that. Now I use an AC20 instead. Always used an ST engine so no loss really, more damage.
The problem with MWO is that it is so far from Battletech now that it barely resembles MechWarrior combat. I know the Mechs explode too fast, but that is a problem with the Mechs, not the weapons. The weapons and Mechs have to fit Battletech norms or you get a very stinted version of MechWarrior gameplay.
It doesn't have to be perfect Battletech, not at all, but the Stock versions of the Mechs must work without a doubt, especially the Inner Sphere stock Mechs. However the stock AWS-9M carries 3xERPPCs which it can only fire 3 times before shutting down, Battletech says 9 salvos before it requires a turn to cool down. Well nine times before shutting down on the 10th salvo is something a pilot can balance out in combat. 2 salvos and shutting down on the 3rd for 10-12 seconds is not playable.
I won't bore you, but if the AWS-9M can't function as a stock Mech due to heat you get GunWarrior, not MechWarrior. And as the game broadens into ClanTech and new weapons it will be unable to adapt and just fall back to nerf everything to vanilla. Vanilla-Warrior?
Look at this MWLL gameplay. Look at all the weapons being fired and the Mechs shrugging it off a good long time. The Atlas pilot is even actually in a bit of a jam, getting focus-fired on and seperated from it's lance.
So it can be done. That said I do like MWO very much and I want it to be the best it can be. I am just giving as honest a viewpoint as I can.
The weapons in question use a different lore friendly concept. Rather than each shot doing a total amount of damage, everything (except the PPCs and Gauss) are geared as damage over time or DPS weapons. For example some versions of the AC/5 there shoot rapidly but only do 1 damage per shot, and deal maybe 5 damage over 2 seconds (so one shot every 0.4 seconds). That's doing damage slower than our AC/5 in MWO (which fires once every 1.5 seconds without pilot skill unlocks like fast fire).
The small lasers demonstrated are rapid, but to deal a full 3 damage it takes several seconds of rapid fire.
The only things doing an actual instant amount of damage are the PPCs and the Gauss, and it appears that they fire very infrequently. Watching the PPC icons turn yellow, it appears that he cannot fire them again for a total of 6 to 7 seconds.
Most of the weapons there are damage over time, and the instant-damage weapons are very slow to re-fire making every shot precious. It is unknown (to me) whether they keep actual armor values.
Now this video
is a bit dated but it's when I first started making lore autocannons in MWO. These focused on AC/20s. I should note that although ChemJet Guns are generally accepted to be a 3 shot burst, the only book that actually used them had them as a 4 shot per cassette weapon.
Furthermore, the Devastator I refer to in the video is actually the only single shot deals 20 damage style UAC/20, which is mounted on the Cauldron Born. However, there is a single shot AC/20, it's safe to mount on most heavy mechs 70 tons and up. In the book which I read, they were trying to mount an AC/20 they found called a Devastator on an Atlas and running combat trials to see its performance, in which firing the weapon while not braced caused the Atlas to lose its balance and topple over in repeated tests. -- Well, what I didn't realize is it wasn't a 203mm AC/20, but a 203mm UAC/20 from the Cauldron Born, and it was a combination of the firing rate and the Atlas's towering height that made the whole thing unstable... and not because an Atlas can't just use a regular 203mm autocannon. (Although single shot AC/20s are super rare in battletech lore).
Someone's provided me with a really cool reference sheet (proving that who made it probably has less of a life than me but that still makes him awesome) with the autocannon variants as mentioned in books + shot count + milimeters + any other quirks.
Using this, I can try and mathematically fill in the blanks of the other weapons. For example in the given document, a Whirlwind AC/5 and a King Crab's DeathGiver AC/20 are the same caliber. The DeathGiver is only stated to be rapid firing bursts. Thankfully the AC/5 is specifically stated to be a 3 round burst. Well, 5 damage / 3 shots = 1.666666666666667. But, 20, divided by 1.666666666666667 = 12 shots. This does take some liberties, such as assuming it's exactly the same caliber of ammunition and such. But it gives us a 'standard' to roll with and come up with a variant system.
Of course, there are conflicts, such as the Atlas's DeathGiver (by a different manufacturing plant) to be 100mm (when the King Crab's Deathgiver is 120mm). Between what we know of the 185mm Chemjet Gun, what we know of the 150mm Crusher Super Heavy Autocannon 20, and now the DeathGiver 120mm AC/20, I don't have the math on me here (it's in an ATD 45 or 44 thread) but I deduced it to be one of two damage rates and of them, one perfectly fit at 20 damage even with 15 shots. And the other number couldn't get an even shot to damage count near 20.
So, it's definitely a fun thought. Months ago, PGI said it would try to develop weapon variants. But I don't hold my breath for a rapid time slot.
For lasers, I had these ideas.
Then someone committed that one of my ideas -- an instant damage laser that required some charge up based on the Halo Spartan Laser -- was already a design in Battletech. It is called the Bombast Laser. Personally I didn't like the flashy glow, I preferred the radiant smoke emissions and vibrations from a weapon-mounted power amplifying device charging the weapon to give that full damage in a single blow. (The actual laser being fired would be akin to classic mechwarrior lasers and instant, focused damage. But that charge up will give the enemy warning and time to react, as well as slow down its firing rate).
The other is something that people at NGNG have been suggesting for a while. A never-ending laser beam, with a cooldown time after you release the trigger to prevent the "flamer trick" from giving infinite lasers with no heat, in which the laser would deal damage at the same DPS as its normal equivalent. For example if a medium laser and the one I designed, the DPS is 1.25. Your medium laser would do a second long burst, deal 5 damage and wait 3 seconds after to be able to fire again. I can fire for the entire 4 seconds -- of course I'm only doing 1.25 damage per second but I have no reason to stop firing.
But for every unit of regular laser recycle time you are firing, that heat per second gets worse and worse, forcing you to eventually stop firing. (Just an example: First 4 seconds, the regular 4 heat generated 1 heat per second. Second 4 second time slot, though, 1.1 heat per second. Third, 1.2 per second. Etc.) With one laser it's not bad at all, but when you boat them you'll notice it very quickly.
Liquid Leopard, on 15 September 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:
I don't see where Kon says he has a 310 engine. With a 300std and no AMS, I got 42 std heat sinks on it.
It will supposedly take 20 seconds to overheat. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...371939229eb47f7
You're in an atlas... with an XL engine.. that's slow.. that can't jump over obstacles.. that's a massive target...
with an XL engine..
that's slow...
that's trying to snipe...
O.o
so it'll never be competitive nor good in the way the Cataphract-3d is...
Fundamentally this design is lacking a clear comprehension of what makes a mech in each class and role effective.
Say it's for fun.. no problem!! It's definitely cool and interesting... but please don't mislead new players by saying this is effective and comparing this atlas build to a real competitive mech such as the Cataphract 3d.
You're in an atlas... with an XL engine.. that's slow.. that can't jump over obstacles.. that's a massive target...
Say it's for fun.. no problem!! It's definitely cool and interesting... but please don't mislead new players by saying this is effective and comparing this atlas build to a real competitive mech such as the Cataphract 3d.
Had an Atlas with a 315 or 320 300 Standard engine (then, just checked 280 now with 2 additional standard heatsinks), and it's trying to engage enemies at any range. Yes. It's slow, but it's got twin AMS to compensate, and mostly front mounted armor.
Btw, Cataphracts fall like flies, and the role of an Atlas K in lore is that of a long range support mech (ER large lasers + Gauss + LRM-20 + AMS by stock + rear mounted medium pulse lasers in case if something snuck up behind it).
But yes for clarity: the thread is about getting over the high heat and slow cooldown of ER PPCs so that they can be viable in your builds with a suggestion as to how to make them cool dramatically faster. This is not akin to the threads that you tend to make where "This is the only way to go to win."
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