21 replies to this topic

[Sherelian]

Hello community,

I had now some games in a row, where I saw some impressive lights-power. I.e. there was a spider with a large pulse laser and to light pulse laser. That is ridicules! My feeling of the games told me, that a 20 tonnage should not be able to load 8 tons of weapons, it should not be able to load a 7-ton laser. That is a priviligege of the 35-ton Panther, or some others. But to buff speedy gonzales with an assault rifle AND the ability to fly is a bit to much.

For the hard facts: In all of my last 20 games at least one light mech did 400-700 damage. They had at least 2 mechs killed, mostly more.The ratio of tonnage / damage has been corrupted, for thos light mechs outgun the assault ones.

I'd like to ask, how this is going to handled.

cheers
Sherelian

[Asakara]

A spider weighs 30 tons, not 20.

[Shadey99]

Lights do not come close to heavy or assault weapon loads. But like everything else they are best suited to carrying as heavy a collection of guns as absolutely possible since killing enemy mechs is the only rewarded action in the game.

Hence my Spider 5k with it's LPL+4MG, or my 5D with a LL+2ML. The only Spider that simply cannot mount heavier guns is the 5V with it's 2 center energy hardpoints and I hardly ever see a 5V (unless I brought it to a game).

Some year when we get rewards for things other than destroying enemy mechs we can see mechs kitted out for something other than all out combat.

[Escef]

I've been running a Commando with 2 large lasers.

[Lorcan Lladd]

It's not that Light 'Mechs are impressive, it's that most Assault and Heavy players are unimpressive; most of them can't hit a moving target and don't know how to protect their center torso hitbox against a faster target.
The Light 'Mech builds with heavy weapons exist as a joke; they're only playable in the chaos of pure solo matches.

Edited by Lorcan Lladd, 14 September 2013 - 02:56 AM.

[Kitane]

For every light that does great damage and multiple kills in battle there are several lights that managed to do little, no difference from any other class.

Their mobility and the fact they are the least threatening mechs on the field (usually) gives them plenty of opportunity to rack up numbers in little increments while the enemy is occupied by their teammates

[Khobai]

The problem with light mechs is that none of them should be able to do great damage. Lights are not supposed to deal damage on par with mediums. Theyre for scouting, spotting, capping, and harassing. Lights completely supplant the role of mediums which is one of the many reasons why no one uses mediums.

IMO, no light mech should have more than 4 weapon hardpoints. And the role of scouting/spotting should be much more crucial to the game, through the use of modules.

Edited by Khobai, 14 September 2013 - 04:22 AM.

[Shadey99]

Khobai, on 14 September 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

The problem with light mechs is that none of them should be able to do great damage. Lights are not supposed to deal damage on par with mediums. Theyre for scouting, spotting, capping, and harassing.
IMO, no light mech should have more than 4 weapon hardpoints.

While we both agree on a need for better role warfare, these other points I cannot agree on...
* Lights often had more than 4 hard points the firestarter and Locust 3M/5M/Locust IIC are the first that come to mind
* The Jenner was built as a fast striker and the commando (which originally had a large laser) was intended to carry medium mech weapon loads (at medium mech speeds)

In fact in the source material it was fairly easy to find that any 2 mechs of equal speed would have a fairly similar loadout due to engine weights, gyros, and internal structure weight. If you want create a chart of mech weights and speed factoring in available tonnage at each weight. XL engines, FF, and ES complicate this more as heavies and assaults often cannot make good use of some of those while lights and mediums can.

[Chaosdrive]

I'm going to presume by "light pulse laser" you mean small, that gives the mech 17.4 firepower, presuming he had endo, ferro, DHS and max armour everywhere except the arm and head with two jumpjets his DPS (Without cool run) would be 2.56, presuming he landed every milisecond of every laser, I'll have to presume a heat neutral map for this math, but here goes:

If the spider did 700 damage, he would of had to fire all of his lasers as often as he could, without shutting down, for 273.43 seconds, thats over four and a half minutes of straight firing - Of course there are also ammo explosions, but it's impossible to factor in such a viable.

Now, unless the enemy mech's lined up and sat there as he shot them, he isn't going to get all lasers to hit the target 100% (Especially when two are in the arm and one is in the CT), so let's say he hits with 95% of the lasers duration on average, that would further increase the time he'd have to fire before hitting that kind of damage.

I'm going to summarise this the best way I can, he lived longer than you, he found targets faster than you, he got to fire a lot more than you.

The only reason he did well was because he got to survive for so long, if the big mech's had hit him he would of died, however the spider obviously targeted mech's that couldn't alpha him then used his speed to get away and hit another target. His alpha ability isn't anywhere near the problem, he has a massive lack of DPS and alpha damage compared to anything heavier, the problem is the enemy team left him alone, which is their own fault, sure a spider is an ankle biter but you can die from a thousand papercuts, it just takes longer.

[HRR Insanity]

Khobai, on 14 September 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

The problem with light mechs is that none of them should be able to do great damage. Lights are not supposed to deal damage on par with mediums. Theyre for scouting, spotting, capping, and harassing. Lights completely supplant the role of mediums which is one of the many reasons why no one uses mediums.

IMO, no light mech should have more than 4 weapon hardpoints. And the role of scouting/spotting should be much more crucial to the game, through the use of modules.

That's completely wrong. Light 'Mechs can and have always been dangerous when used properly (even in tabletop). Get behind things, ruin their back armor, damage, or kill their larger opponents. Just because something is small doesn't mean it should be relegated to non-combat roles.

Keep in mind... Assault pilots should not attempt to devalue the relative impact of light 'Mechs on the battlefield by decreasing their weaponry. Just like Light 'Mech pilots should not ask that Assault 'Mechs should only be able to move at 20kph and turn like whales. Right, Khobai?

[Foxfire]

Khobai, on 14 September 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

The problem with light mechs is that none of them should be able to do great damage. Lights are not supposed to deal damage on par with mediums. Theyre for scouting, spotting, capping, and harassing. Lights completely supplant the role of mediums which is one of the many reasons why no one uses mediums.

IMO, no light mech should have more than 4 weapon hardpoints. And the role of scouting/spotting should be much more crucial to the game, through the use of modules.

What supplants the power of mediums is the amount of high damage alphas and the general combination of oversized chassis and relatively slow speed that is oft on par with heavies that Mediums suffer from. Only two chassis truly fit into that 'inbetween' space between heavies and lights(the Treb and Cicada with the Kintaro coming close but losing out because of how obnoxiously oversized that chassis is)

There is no problem with lights being able to do damage(especially given that most of the lights in games are striker types).. it is just that the meta and design decisions made by PGI with respect to mediums creates a very unfavorable environment for them.

[Appogee]

Spiders are presently leading a charmed life thanks to bugged hit detection.

Once day, Doris, one day... ''Bam! Right in the kisser!''

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 14 September 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

The problem with light mechs is that none of them should be able to do great damage. Lights are not supposed to deal damage on par with mediums. Theyre for scouting, spotting, capping, and harassing. Lights completely supplant the role of mediums which is one of the many reasons why no one uses mediums.

IMO, no light mech should have more than 4 weapon hardpoints. And the role of scouting/spotting should be much more crucial to the game, through the use of modules.

Lights are not overpowered. Mediums are just underpowered.

[Szegedin]

I disagree that lights outgun the assaults and mediums just based on damage numbers....Its true when I pilot a 7F 600+ damage games are not entirely unusual. But typically that damage is spread out over 8-11 members of the enemy team.

If I run a high-damage, low assist game its 'cause I was fortunate enough to find isolated opponents or less able members of the enemy team to pick on.

High kills usually means I exploited holes my teammates opened on enemies who have subsequently retreated or moved behind cover. I also frequently 'steal' kills during focus fire events by targeting damaged sections - something I'm working on avoiding. (I don't always spend enough time thinking to hold fire)

I try to balance that with sporadic acts of charity, say - legging an enemy light and leaving it for someone else to kill.

My lowest damage games are the ones where I get in prolonged duels with other lights - these are also often the funnest.

Now when I pilot an Assault or even a Medium (yet to buy any hard hitting Heavies) I may do less overall damage , but have a greater ability to actually take a single target from high-health to destruction, where as in a light I might take potshots or make strafing runs against a larger healthy target, but will generally avoid focused engagements until its armor is beat up.

I'd highly recommend buying and mastering a light Mech for anyone who finds them unappealing. If you have some moral injunction about taking an 'invincible' ride - it will dissolve once you set foot in a light and start dying. But if you persevere you might find out how fun they are to drive and gain some perspective about what they do.

Since I started in lights, even when I'm unlucky enough to start getting picked apart by 'em in an Assault, I can sit back and appreciate what they're doing. Hopefully taking a few with me If my aim stays true.

Edited by Szegedin, 14 September 2013 - 07:24 PM.

[Biglead]

No such thing as an "Impressive" light pilot atm. Make that evaluation after collisions come back.

[Royalewithcheese]

Here's my take on this issue: MWO is a multiplayer shooter. There is no battle value, and there is no weight balancing. I see no reason why the game shouldn't be balanced so that, assuming equally skilled pilots, a Spider could could contribute as much as an Atlas.

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 14 September 2013 - 11:01 AM.

[YueFei]

Biglead, on 14 September 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

No such thing as an "Impressive" light pilot atm. Make that evaluation after collisions come back.

A skilled light is never close to you unless he's behind you anyway. It always amazes me when people refuse to give another player the credit they are due. Always coming up with excuses for why you lost to an opponent. Just admit you got beat, think about how you could've countered it, and move on with your life.

I may complain about the pacing of the game and time-to-kill, and wish that mechs would live longer, but I never whine about how an enemy player kills me.

[Biglead]

YueFei, on 14 September 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

A skilled light is never close to you unless he's behind you anyway. It always amazes me when people refuse to give another player the credit they are due. Always coming up with excuses for why you lost to an opponent. Just admit you got beat, think about how you could've countered it, and move on with your life.

I may complain about the pacing of the game and time-to-kill, and wish that mechs would live longer, but I never whine about how an enemy player kills me.

I don't run solo, that's how I beat them. If I get stupid and separate from my team its not my skill vs theirs that determines the outcome, its hitboxes. Sometimes when they hug my sac they get hit with my {Richard Cameron}, other times they run through me constantly and stay on my back. Regardless of the situation my weapons stay on them as they pass, but you know what they say... "Hit-boxes, you either have them or you don't".

I would give credit if there was credit to give. Light hitboxes are and have been messed up as far back as the Trollmando. Collisions will weed out the terribads and only then will I give a nod to the light pilots who deserve it.

[PEEFsmash]

Biglead, on 14 September 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

I don't run solo, that's how I beat them. If I get stupid and separate from my team its not my skill vs theirs that determines the outcome, its hitboxes. Sometimes when they hug my sac they get hit with my {Richard Cameron}, other times they run through me constantly and stay on my back. Regardless of the situation my weapons stay on them as they pass, but you know what they say... "Hit-boxes, you either have them or you don't".

I would give credit if there was credit to give. Light hitboxes are and have been messed up as far back as the Trollmando. Collisions will weed out the terribads and only then will I give a nod to the light pilots who deserve it.

The approval of Biglead! That's what we are all after!

Once you become a relevant pilot I will give you a nod for giving lights a nod. Until then, irrelevant players stay irrelevant.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 14 September 2013 - 06:44 PM.

[Deathlike]

Light Mechs: The cause of the best qq that bad Assault pilots make early and often.

Working as intended™.