17 replies to this topic

[Brenden]

One of my Gundam obsessed friends ask me to see what this... Mobile Suit, would be like on the Board-Game or MWO? What do you guys think - can you help me?


According to the website they gave me, it has the following.
4 Tube rocket launcher.
1 Beam rifle and Pistol.
2 Head mounted 60mm Cannons? I don't see them.

Because it's weight is illegal (43) I added two extra tons to make it acceptable at 45 tons.
It's evidently 18 meters tall and I believe it uses Titanium as it's only defense in the armor department.

What do you think? Can this thing be Mechified?

[Fabe]

It could work in tabletop,I would need some info on it's speed and possible jump capability but for starters I would give it the following for weapons

2 X SRM-4
1 X Large Laser
1 X Medium (or Small) Laser
2 X Machine Gun

[Brenden]

Fabe, on 14 September 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

It could work in tabletop,I would need some info on it's speed and possible jump capability but for starters I would give it the following for weapons

2 X SRM-4
1 X Large Laser
1 X Medium (or Small) Laser
2 X Machine Gun

According to the website, it has a ground speed of 87.4-102.1kph in short bursts of sprinting and has ten nozzles where I think their limited-fueled Jump Jet depository is stored. Two are facing completely back instead of downward for directional movement. Also that thing on it's left leg is a Pistol so I'd go with Small. As for that 60mm, they're suppose to be Cannons I think... Yeah, "Vulcan Gun".
Perhaps it is a Machine Gun? I don't see them anywhere near the head though.

[Stormwolf]

The fun thing with early Battletech was that they took artwork and gave it their own unique spin. The original stats get largely ignored because of this.

Here's what I came up with on the fly:

[Brenden]

Stormwolf, on 15 September 2013 - 02:54 AM, said:

The fun thing with early Battletech was that they took artwork and gave it their own unique spin. The original stats get largely ignored because of this.

Here's what I came up with on the fly:

How did you do that - the sheet?
Also, nice work! I really like it.

[Stormwolf]

Brenden, on 15 September 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

How did you do that - the sheet?
Also, nice work! I really like it.

Thanks, i did it with Solaris Skunk Werks:

http://www.solarisskunkwerks.com/

[Brenden]

Stormwolf, on 15 September 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

Thanks, i did it with Solaris Skunk Werks:

http://www.solarisskunkwerks.com/

I'll be sure to grab that after I come back from breakfast with my father.
Oh, question. Why don't most 'mechs carry a detachable weapon, like a gun?

[Stomp]

Brenden, on 15 September 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

I'll be sure to grab that after I come back from breakfast with my father.
Oh, question. Why don't most 'mechs carry a detachable weapon, like a gun?

A lot of them do, it just depends. The Battlemaster carries a PPC weapon in it's hand. The benefit of hand weapons is at close range they can drop it and engage in melee attacks. The drawback is that there are no melee attacks in the game haha. A couple other mechs I'm sure have carried weapons, the original Yen Lo Wang actually had a Hatchet, and the HatchetMan has a Hatchet obvs as well. It's all preference, I'm sure. The rules are, roughly, that if the mech has hands, it can conceivably do damage through grabs, throws, punches, and if they have humanoid legs, also kicking! And the only reason some don't is generally because... I have no idea. Can you imagine a Timber Wolf with human hands though? Hahaha, freaky.

[Stormwolf]

Brenden, on 15 September 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

I'll be sure to grab that after I come back from breakfast with my father.
Oh, question. Why don't most 'mechs carry a detachable weapon, like a gun?

There are no actual TT rules for a weapon outside of the mech critspace, the hatchet is probably the closest you can get to a detachable weapon since it's supposed to be held in the mech's hands.

Most of the old artwork was lifted from pre-existing mecha designs (Robotech, etc), hence why the Battlemaster still has this obvious gun:
http://www.sarna.net...025_bmaster.jpg

The later reseen incarnations of this mech graft the gun unto the mech itself:
http://www.sarna.net...attleMaster.jpg
http://www.sarna.net...attlemaster.png

The notable exception here is the Axman AXM-6X
It's a experimental testbed that can swap between the weapons with relative ease:
http://www.sarna.net...le:Axman_6X.jpg
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Axman

Edited by Stormwolf, 15 September 2013 - 09:30 AM.

[Stomp]

Stormwolf, on 15 September 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

There are no actual TT rules for a weapon outside of the mech critspace, the hatchet is probably the closest you can get to a detachable weapon since it's supposed to be held in the mech's hands.

Most of the old artwork was lifted from pre-existing mecha designs (Robotech, etc), hence why the Battlemaster still has this obvious gun:
http://www.sarna.net...025_bmaster.jpg

The later reseen incarnations of this mech graft the gun unto the mech itself:
http://www.sarna.net...attleMaster.jpg
http://www.sarna.net...attlemaster.png

The notable exception here is the Axman AXM-6X
It's a experimental testbed that can swap between the weapons with relative ease:
http://www.sarna.net...le:Axman_6X.jpg
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Axman

Ah good call I forgot they started putting it on the mech, explains why the BattleMaster for this game has an arm-mounted one instead.

[Slade Deleportas]

There are many rules for handheld weapons dating the whole way back to Maximum Tech and the one new Axeman replaces it's axe with handheld crit space.

Basically the downfall with handheld weapons is that they have to mount all their heatsinks with them, and can only be as heavy as the mechs lifiting capacity... so limited to 5 or 10% of the mechs weight (can't remember if one handed lifting is 5% or keeps the overall 10%?)

Also hands: In the boardgame yes you can punch and kick (any mech can punch and kick regardless of leg design or actuators) But for punches the more actuators you are missing through either damage or design (timberwolf) you do less damage and it's harder to do it. Hope this clarifies some stuff.

[Skylarr]

Quote

PUNCH ATTACKS
(’MECH ONLY)



In a single turn, a ’Mech may punch with one or both arms. It can deliver a punch using its arm or fire the weapons on that arm, but it may not do both. Weapons mounted in the torso, legs or head may be fired in the same turn as a punch attack is made without affecting the punch.

All punch attacks must be made against targets in the attacking ’Mech’s forward or side firing arcs. If the target is in the right or left arc, only the right or left arm, respectively, may punch. A ’Mech cannot make a punch attack using a shoulder that suffered critical damage. Likewise, any arm actuator damage on the punching arm makes success more difficult and reduces the damage inflicted.

See Modified To-Hit Number, p. 106, to determine the target number for a punch attack. A punch attack has a Damage Value of 1 for every 10 tons (or fraction of 10 tons) that the attacker weighs. Reduce the damage by half for each upper or lower arm actuator damaged or not present, with these effects being cumulative. In other words, if both arm actuators are missing or damaged, reduce the attack damage to one-quarter of its original value (round fractions down, to a minimum of 1).

Determine damage location by rolling 1D6 and consulting the appropriate column of the ’Mech Punch Location Table based on whether the ’Mech is a biped or four-legged design.

Multiple Targets: A ‘Mech can make two punches at two different targets and ignores the secondary target modifier.

Missing Actuators: A ’Mech does not need hands (or hand actuators) to punch. However, ’Mechs not equipped with a hand on the punching arm must add the +1 modifier as for a hand actuator critical hit. Likewise, ’Mechs that do not come equipped with a lower arm actuator on the punching arm must add a +2 modifier to the to-hit number (in place of the +1 modifier for punching without a hand actuator), and the punch inflicts only half the standard damage (round down).

Total Warfare page 145

Quote

Handheld Weapons

Handheld Weapons: Only a heavy (vehicular-class) weapon may be constructed as a Handheld Weapon; no items described as “Other Equipment” on the weapon tables (except for Artemis and TAG systems) may be incorporated into a Handheld Weapon design. The total weight of a Handheld Weapon equals the weight of the weapon(s) placed in the handheld mount, plus the number of any standard (single) heat sinks required to fire the weapon(s) at full capacity and the weight of any ammunition required. Ammunition for Handheld Weapons may be added on a per-shot basis, with each shot’s weight in tons determined by dividing 1 by the number of shots the weapon normally carries per ton (round the total number of shots assigned to the weapon up to the nearest half ton). Note that Handheld Weapons only require heat sinks for energy-based weapon(s); ballistic and missile weapons require no heat sinks to fire when placed in a Handheld Weapon mount.

A Handheld Weapon may also add armor to its construction, at a cost of 1 ton for every 16 points of armor protection (Handheld weapons may use only Standard Armor).

When constructing a unit, no tonnage or critical space is required to mount a Handheld Weapon, as the weapon is considered self-contained and separate. However, if a unit is intended to carry Handheld Weapons, it must incorporate two full sets of arm actuators, including hand actuators.

Tactical Operations page 314


R&D Start Date: 3050 (Federated Commonwealth)
Prototype Design and Production: 3055 (Federated Commonwealth)
On today’s battlefield, the term “handheld weapons” commonly refers not to the armaments carried by infantry, but heavy-class weapons built on pistol or rifle-like “handhold” mounts to be used by ’Mech-scaled hands. While the most recent efforts to perfect this technology occurred in the wake of the Clan invasion, when FedCom researchers tested pistol-style handheld weapon mounts, it was the Terran Hegemony’s earliest efforts to design such weapons for ’Mechs like the Griffin and the Phoenix Hawk that truly saw the first attempts at a universal, portable weapon mount.

Unfortunately, this oft-repeated project never progressed beyond the testing stage, largely because of weight and bulk issues from the weapons’ design, as well as the utter lack of adequate safeguards to prevent hostile units from “stealing” such weapons in mid-battle and turning them on their users. More often than not, in fact, engineers through the ages have settled for hard-mounting their “handheld weapons” to the BattleMechs’ framework, retaining only the visual appearance of such giant pistols and rifles, rather than a truly modular mount.

Rules Level: Experimental
Available To: BM, IM, PM
Tech Base (Ratings): Both (D/E-E-F)
Game Rules: Handheld Weapons may only be picked up and used by ProtoMech and ’Mech units possessing two functioning hand actuators. Critical hits to a unit’s hand actuators force it to drop a Handheld Weapon during the turn’s End Phase (or prevent the unit from picking up such a weapon to begin with). However, critical hits to any other arm actuators only add the (cumulative) penalties for making attacks with actuator damage.

Per the ’Mech Lifting Capabilities rule, a ProtoMech or ’Mech unit may only carry a single Handheld Weapon that weighs up to 10 percent of the unit’s own total weight (20 percent, if the unit mounts operating Triple-Strength Myomer). However, doing so makes it impossible to make any physical attacks beyond a charge, Death From Above or kick—or to use any weapons mounted in the unit’s arms, torso or Main Gun locations.

When used to attack, a Handheld Weapon may only be fired on one target per turn, even if the handheld mount carries multiple individual weapons (such as a handheld mount with 2 medium lasers in it). Because the weapon is self-contained, it will not generate heat, nor can it draw on the unit’s on-board ammunition supplies or take advantage of targeting computer and other electronic enhancements installed within the firing unit’s chassis.

If a unit using a Handheld Weapon takes a hit to either arm location, the attacker must roll 1D6. On a result of 6, the Handheld Weapon takes the damage instead, and is destroyed if it sustains more damage from the hit than it has armor points.

Handheld Weapons may be picked up or dropped during the End Phase of any turn. Units with functioning hand actuators may only pick up a Handheld Weapon in their own hex. Dropping a Handheld Weapon leaves the weapon in the hex where the unit is currently standing. If a unit carrying a Handheld Weapon falls, it must make an additional Piloting Skill roll to avoid accidentally dropping the weapon, applying any arm actuator damage modifiers in addition to any other applicable Piloting modifiers. A weapon dropped intentionally or otherwise may not be picked up again until the End Phase of the following and subsequent turns.

A dropped Handheld Weapon’s location must be noted on the map. Dropped weapons may be targeted for weapon attacks by other units. Such attacks are made at a +1 to-hit modifier, but also apply the –4 immobile target modifier.

Tactical Operations page 314

Edited by Skylarr, 16 September 2013 - 05:34 PM.

[SethAbercromby]

There are also rules regarding Jettison-Capable weapons.

Her's a direct quote from Sarna:

Quote

A branch of technological development that incorporated the work done on handheld weaponry by the Star League, the Jettison-Capable Weapon Quirk indicates that a unit has one of more weapons that can be jettisoned in combat and later picked up and reattached.^[23]
A unit may carry up to two such weapons, although each must have this Quirk and pay for it seperately, and some weapons such as those mounted in pod space on Omni-platforms and handheld weapons cannot take this quirk. Such a weapon may be jettisoned during combat in the same fashion as ammunition can be dumped, but without any risk of explosions initiated by dropping the weapon or being struck by an enemy attack. Such weapons may subsequently be reattached in much the same time as an ammunition reload, but unlike dropped handheld weapons, other units may not pick up and use a jettisoned weapon.^[23]

I am unsure what paying for the quirk actually means. Is it required to apply a negative quirk of the same value?

[Skylarr]

Quote

NEW DESIGN QUIRKS
Beginning with this Technical Readout, special notes will be provided for applicable units whose fluff or images suggest additional features. These Design Quirks use the optional rules found in Strategic Operations (see pp. 193-199, SO), as well as few additional Quirks presented in this volume. Design Quirks are an advanced game rule, with limited game balance, and so they are not appropriate for tournament play. Instead, these unique effects would be far better suited to role-playing or campaign based games, where greater in-universe depth is desired.

Unless noted otherwise in the Quirk’s rules, each Design Quirk may be taken only once per unit.


Positive Quirk: Jettison-Capable Weapon (1 point)
Available to: ’Mechs, Vehicles
Some units are equipped with mounted weapons that can be jettisoned in combat and—if recovered—remounted on the same unit with ease. While this feature included early Star League-era attempts to develop handheld weapon mounts (as seen on the original BattleMaster, Wolverine, Griffin, and Phoenix Hawk designs), vehicles can also adapt this technology.


A ’Mech or Vehicle can carry a maximum of two Jettison-Capable Weapons, and must take the Jettison-Capable Quirk for each weapon so equipped. Handheld Weapons may not receive this Design Quirk, nor may any item mounted using pod technology (fixed weapons on an Omni-unit may be Jettison-Capable, however).

A Jettison-Capable Weapon may be dropped in combat using the basic rules for Dumping Ammunition (see p. 104, TW), except there is no risk of explosion from the jettisoning weapon, and thus there are no special effects when a unit jettisoning its weapons is struck from the rear. Jettisoning an ammunition-dependent weapon does not also jettison its ammunition. Treat any untouched critical locations for a Jettison-Capable Weapon as a Roll Again result if they are struck after the weapon is jettisoned.

TECHNICAL READOUT: PROTOTYPES page 204

*Removed my "Not available until 3090" comment. I mis-read the data.

Edited by Skylarr, 29 September 2013 - 05:23 PM.

[SethAbercromby]

Skylarr, on 29 September 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

This is not available until 3090.

1.) Didn't see that being mentioned. If you want to make a point with a quote, include the correct one. Jettison-Capable weapons are mentioned being Star League-era technology though and your quote even explicitly points to that.

2.) Does that make my point any less valid? Jettison-Capable weapons are similar to handheld weapons but exclusive to the 'Mech using them. Also, the weapon is apparently linked to the internal systems so it feeds its heat into the internal heat sinks and if it's ammo dependent, your ammo is still stored in your 'Mech so the weapon doesn't weight any additional tonnage.

[Dantiger]

just a head up, the rifle is more like a PPC than a Laser. and its a GM sniper custom, so the rifle should be a ERPPC

[Tesunie]

Stomp, on 15 September 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

A lot of them do, it just depends. The Battlemaster carries a PPC weapon in it's hand. The benefit of hand weapons is at close range they can drop it and engage in melee attacks. The drawback is that there are no melee attacks in the game haha. A couple other mechs I'm sure have carried weapons, the original Yen Lo Wang actually had a Hatchet, and the HatchetMan has a Hatchet obvs as well. It's all preference, I'm sure. The rules are, roughly, that if the mech has hands, it can conceivably do damage through grabs, throws, punches, and if they have humanoid legs, also kicking! And the only reason some don't is generally because... I have no idea. Can you imagine a Timber Wolf with human hands though? Hahaha, freaky.

As far as I know (can't tell if it's been covered already), but all hand held weapons (or nearly all but "experimental" versions) have been removed from Battletech because of the lawsuit issues they where having. A lot of the designs that had the copyright issues (which Battletech won last I knew and has full rights to use the old pictures, but they wont because they are worried about possible more problems, plus they remade them anyway) carried guns in their hands. If you look at the reseen (and any other "battletech" design now that I know of), none of them still carry a gun in a hand, but have them integrated into the arm somehow.

Battlemaster is a mecha used by Robotech and Battletech at first, and it's original pictures showed the gun being in the hand. Much like the Wolverine (where that picture came from, I do not know) that carried not only it's gun in it's hand, but also ammo clips. Stinger, Valkyrie, Shadowhawk and various other mechs use to carry their weapons in their hands as guns. In the reseen of them, you don't see them having guns, but weapons mounted inside the arms themselves.

(I could be incorrect, but I believe it was decided to remove anything with a gun in it's hand from the list and rework it so it didn't anymore.)

[SethAbercromby]

Tesunie, on 29 September 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

Battlemaster is a mecha used by Robotech and Battletech at first, and it's original pictures showed the gun being in the hand. Much like the Wolverine (where that picture came from, I do not know) that carried not only it's gun in it's hand, but also ammo clips. Stinger, Valkyrie, Shadowhawk and various other mechs use to carry their weapons in their hands as guns. In the reseen of them, you don't see them having guns, but weapons mounted inside the arms themselves.

(I could be incorrect, but I believe it was decided to remove anything with a gun in it's hand from the list and rework it so it didn't anymore.)

The Lawsuit issues they were having were caused by some of the 'Mechs came from anime designs, adapted into the BattleTech universe. These caused lawsuit issues with the respective owners and forced them to withdraw any 'Mechs in question. Short quote from Sarna:

Quote

When FASA created the BattleTech boardgame in 1984, the designers licensed the rights to use pre-existing Mecha from other IPs, namely the Japanese anime series' The Super Dimension Fortress Macross, Fang of the Sun Dougram and Crusher Joe as visual representation of several 'Mechs and other units within the BattleTech universe (under new names and with BattleTech game stats devised entirely by FASA). However, during a series of lawsuits in 1994 FASA found out that TCI, from whom FASA's rights to the images derived, might not have been in a legal position to provide these rights to FASA in the first place. The lawsuits were settled out of court.

Later, they managed to strike a few deals with some companies and were allowed to feature redesigned versions of these 'Mechs in their games again. However, the Warhammer (featured in the original MW5/Reboot trailer) design was forced to withdraw from the game after the trailer launched. I don't know whether they didn't arrange a deal to use the 'Mech or the owner decided to not have this design featured after the trailer got released.

Anyhow, the reason we're not seeing any handheld weaponry here because it's simply to difficult to implement in the game. It works well on board but not so good in a full 3D game, that's why its easier to just integrate the originally handheld weapon in the arm. Interestingly, both Griffin and Wolverine appear to still have Jettison-Capable weapons, just not in a rifle design like the original pictures to fit into the overall design scheme.