37 replies to this topic

[Shadey99]

I keep meaning to make a very comprehensive post about weapon balance and design, but I hadn't gotten around to it yet...
However energy weapons outside the PPC are still underwhelming... The spread of damage on targets and the length of the beam on lasers makes them less desirable. Since I went temporarily insane and bought a Firebrand then played 8 hours of gaming with it in 2 days, I tested a wide range of current ballistic and energy weapons. A pair of large lasers just doesn't have the kick of a PPC, which doesn't require you to stare at your opponent. This was the key to both Gauss Rifles and PPCs in their use. Every other ballistic or energy weapon requires you to stare at your opponent to deal damage.

Anyways...

Pulse Lasers need their mechanism changed flat out. Pulses need to be singled out. Each pulse should be no more than .2 seconds (1/3rd the current duration for three pulses) and each pulse should have a brief (roughly equal to duration) cooldown. So when holding down the trigger it would fire as: Pew. Pew. Pew. until you lay off the trigger. Building constant heat as it deals damage in a 'laser machinegun' fashion. They should inflict good damage over a quick period of time generating alot of heat in exchange. Small Pulses would generate very little heat, Medium pulses a medium amount, and the large pulses alot of heat per shot. To use them you would dash in close, fire and then dash out to cool down.

Lasers need a duration that is smaller like .6 (current MPL/LPL) or .75 (current SL) seconds. The duration decrease should make it easier to do solid damage in a short time. Mediums need to go back down as do Smalls so they match TT. Later ER lasers (Small and medium) should have duration that is longer (like current lasers) and will be much hotter. In trade damage needs to go down for Large Lasers (ER and normal back to 8). Overall this will make the MLs more of a 'go to' weapon as they should be and small lasers a good option up close, while large lasers make good backup to other heavy weapons. Lowering duration also affects recharge (as cooldown takes place after a full firing), actually causing them to generate more heat over time than they currently do.

Now for some comparisons...

An AC2 generates 2 heat every second doing 4 damage in 2 shots using 6 tons and 1 slot. Current Large laser does 9 damage for 7 heat over 1 second using 5 tons and 2 slots. However the AC2 can keep firing while the LL needs 3.25 seconds to cooldown, so can deal another 12 damage and generates another 6 heat for a total of 16 damage and 8 heat. So while their heat is now roughly equal, the AC2s have had the chance to deal nearly twice the damage... Weight and slots are very similar. Ironic that the lightest AC is roughly in line with the largest laser.

Now lets compare the current AC2 versus the 'revised' LPL...
AC2: 1 heat, 2 damage, 6 tons, 1 slot, 750-2160 meter range
LPL: 3 heat, 3 damage, 7 tons, 2 slots, 300-600 meter max range

The LPL will actually be somewhat faster (It could be starting it's second pulse), do slightly more damage, generate alot more heat, and have less than half the range of the AC2 for similar weight and slots. Seeing as how a single LPL generates 3 heat per pulse with up to 3 pulses per second or in other words 9 heat per second and even 20 DHS can only cool 3.4 heat per second, heat would limit the use of the weapon to a very brief window of time. However during this brief window of firing (3 seconds with 10 DHS about 5 seconds or so for 20 DHS) a LPL would do 27 (3 seconds) to 45 damage (5 seconds). Now since only a large mech could even think about mounting 20 DHS and we are talking about a single LPL (2 could only fire for about 2.5 seconds on a mech with 10 DHS or 1.5 seconds on a mech with 10 DHS for equal damage to one at 3 or 5). Then you would need to cool down for over 10 seconds to use it again.

Anyways... I'll expand that more some other time.

[Wolfways]

I'll just post something that i wrote in another thread about TT-MWO weapon stats (That's why the dps is in 10 seconds):

"MWO's weapons have the same weight and ammo dependency as TT but the fire rates have been changed a lot.
In TT:
AC2 = 2 damage/10 seconds.
AC5 = 5 damage/10 seconds.
AC10 = 10 damage/10 seconds
SL = 3 damage/10 seconds.
ML = 5 damage/10 seconds.
LL = 8 damage/10 seconds.

Looks pretty similar there.

In MWO:
AC2 = 38.5 damage/10 seconds.
AC5 = 33.3 damage/10 seconds.
AC10 = 40 damage/10 seconds.
SL = 10 damage/10 seconds.
ML = 12.5 damage/10 seconds.
LL = 21.2 damage/10 seconds.

Not even close. An AC5 does almost triple the damage of a ML? In TT the SL does more damage than the AC2, yet in MWO the AC2 does almost four times the damage of the SL?

Add to that they gave energy weapons double range and ballistics triple range, and personally i don't see any point in using an energy-based mech over a ballistic-based mech.
And people wonder why PGI are having trouble balancing weapons...

Edit: I just remembered that the cooldown starts after the burntime on lasers finishes, so lasers actually do a little less dps than i stated above."

Edit: Btw, i've been using lasers since CB because i didn't like ballistics (until now ) and if someone lets you keep a laser on one armour section he is an incredibly bad player, or a dc.

Edited by Wolfways, 16 September 2013 - 03:56 PM.

[GMAK]

Energy weapons are fine. Just the gauss now that is not fine. And maybe the flamer and the machine gun.

[Wolfways]

Mak54291, on 16 September 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

Energy weapons are fine. Just the gauss now that is not fine. And maybe the flamer and the machine gun.

Try using a Jager with 2xAC2's and 2xAC5's and then tell me lasers are fine.
Or look at the numbers i posted above. A ML has a 1.25 dps and its TT equivalent, the AC5 has a 3.33 dps and over 3x the range.

[Top Secret Fifth Account Shhh]

As a whole,

I like energy weapons.

[Ngamok]

hashinshin, on 15 September 2013 - 08:53 PM, said:

Pulse lasers suck, that we know.

Medium lasers are INCREDIBLY spammable though, and large lasers are probably the best weapon in the game right now.

Lasers as a whole might suck, but they have 2 of the best weapons in the game. Right now you pretty much have UAC5, Large lasers, and medium lasers as thje best.

LPLs leg those lights pretty fast, just saying.

[Veranova]

I wonder if in community warfare we'll be prevented from re-arming during a campaign, or be charged a premium OR have to capture a ressupply objective before the main objective in order to do so. That would suddenly make this very interesting.

[MustrumRidcully]

RandomLurker, on 16 September 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

Lasers only spread the damage if you have lousy aim. With arm mounted lasers and practice, I can keep 90% of the beam on one location even on a moving target. Much lower on light mechs ofc. And if I'm getting a lot of cockpit shake. And so on. Lasers are awesome in fact, because they are instaneous. You just need to practice holding them on target (turn off arm lock if you haven't already).

Not bad. Even if they torso twist?

Check here for your laser accuracy: http://mwomercs.com/...ats?type=weapon

It won't tell you whether you hit the same hit location, and beam stats are a bit too generous - even if you manage 10 % of the beam time on target, you would get this counted as a hit. But you should probably have more than my pathetic 87.79% for the medium laser.

(Actual Accuracy for lasers can be better determined by multiplying the shots fired with their damage, and diving the total damage with the weapon through the previous value.)

[Wolfways]

Accuracy with lasers will also be increased on the chart because they are generally fired singularly or in pairs to avoid melting the mech, while ballistics can be grouped more due to their low heat generation. Obviously some shots will miss if you're leading a target due to convergence spreading the shots (as you're aiming at whatever is behind the target) but it's still worth it for the increased damage.

[Lefty Lucy]

Wolfways, on 16 September 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

Try using a Jager with 2xAC2's and 2xAC5's and then tell me lasers are fine.
Or look at the numbers i posted above. A ML has a 1.25 dps and its TT equivalent, the AC5 has a 3.33 dps and over 3x the range.

You're also forgetting that in TT the AC2 and 5 were considered to be largely forgettable weapons, if not outright useless, because they were so much better replaced by PPC and LL. Weapons that require you to continuously face the target (such as the AC2) also don't fare as well when used in actual game play, which rewards the ability to fire then take cover. The "high capacity low dissipation" heat system plays a role in this as well.

The fact that the ML has a DPS a little less than one-half of a weapon that weighs 8 times as much is not as much of a tragedy as you're painting it to be.

[Wolfways]

Lefty Lucy, on 18 September 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

You're also forgetting that in TT the AC2 and 5 were considered to be largely forgettable weapons, if not outright useless, because they were so much better replaced by PPC and LL. Weapons that require you to continuously face the target (such as the AC2) also don't fare as well when used in actual game play, which rewards the ability to fire then take cover. The "high capacity low dissipation" heat system plays a role in this as well.

The fact that the ML has a DPS a little less than one-half of a weapon that weighs 8 times as much is not as much of a tragedy as you're painting it to be.

The inability to torso twist matters little if the target you're firing at dies in seconds, before it can do much damage anyway. Plus AC's have enough range that you can kill people out of their weapon range or they have difficulty hitting you from the same distance.
As far as i'm concerned, if you have the weapons on your mech with enough ammo to last a match then weight doesn't matter. Someone using 8 ML's against someone using a single AC5 is going to lose as he can only chainfire them and slowly do damage, or alpha and then spend a while just trying to avoid damage as he cools off, even without ghost heat, while the AC player just pounds him with constant high damage.

Anyway, i thought the increased weight was to balance out the extreme range and low heat generation in TT.

[Dantiger]

what about high heat capacity with very low dissipation and heat penalties ? for me its the ideal... but I want to hear someone's opinion

[Scratx]

Energy weapons as a whole don't really need an overhaul. Some weapons in specific need looking at (I'm looking at you pulses) and maybe a chassis or two needs energy/heat related perks to help (AWS 8Q, anyone), but overall? Nope.

Besides, don't let the low weight of those energy weapons fool you. The heatsinks to keep them cool have their own weight...

[Bront]

Part of the PPC problem was the alternitive energy weapons weren't as appealing. Fixing their heat a bit (probably a 1 point drop for heat on all lasers that aren't the ERLarge, as well as the PPC/ERPPC), as well as a bit of a general buff (reduced beam duration for everyone, .75 for ML/LL, .6 for SL, .5 for LPL/MPL, .4 for SPL) I think would help.

Part of the issue is that DHS don't work as well as they do in TT, so energy build that DHS normally allowed (and were balanced against Balistics and Missiles by) don't work as well when their effectiveness is reduced. A slight buff to heat sinks would also help make energy weapons more viable.

Edited by Bront, 18 September 2013 - 08:51 AM.

[The Boz]

OK, here's a

BIG NEW IDEA FOR PULSE LASERS

that I came up with.

The idea is to turn them into good, reliable brawling weapons that are effective against all targets. All targets includes lights, so some functionality needs to change to make that happen. To make them effective at efficient and economical damage dealing under pressure, they need to be accurate, and not phased much by moving targets or the mech's own maneuvering.
In order to attain those goals, I put forth the following idea.
Shooting a pulse laser generates a transparent beam, not unlike that of a TAG laser. The beam has a minimum "identification" time of 0.15 seconds and a maximum "scan" time of 0.9 seconds. If at any time during that interval the beam intersects with the body of an enemy mech, the weapon immediately fires one pulse. The pulse is instant (no beam duration) and hitscan (no flight time), dealing the weapon's full damage in one packet. Only the actual firing of the pulse laser generates heat; the TAG-like beam does not. Upon firing the beam or missing the window, the weapon goes on a full cooldown.
Advantages:
1. Tripwire functionality against light mechs.
2. No damage spread caused by beam duration.
3. Identification beam prevents friendly fire.
4. No heat generation on missing a shot.
The overall DPS of this weapon should be comparable to that of a normal laser of the same size (if used optimally), but with much less DPT and slightly less DPH. The range should be limited to short; the current SPL and MPL are at the right place, the LPL needs to be slightly nerfed in that regard.
Doing this will ensure that the pulse lasers have a viable niche (close range brawling), but they don't encroach on to other energy weapons' territories.

Anyone like?

Edited by The Boz, 18 September 2013 - 05:56 PM.

[RandomLurker]

Props for creative thinking, but there's some major flaws I can see off the top. First, it's way to similar to the gauss charge up- hold and then fire. Second, it's going to result in a lot of shots hitting the arms, reducing their value as a "kill" weapon. Would be great for legging mechs though. Also, still more accurate as an instant fire then lasers- only requires a .15 second hold on target instead of 1.0. Mostly, I think that adding more funky mechanics is bad. The gauss change went over so well after all.

Edited by RandomLurker, 18 September 2013 - 06:13 PM.

[Kaldor]

IL MECHWARRIOR, on 16 September 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

heat system is completely broken, all the system need to be watched again, the fist madness is the ghost heat, the second one are the underpowered ppcs, the third load time to gauss......

I agree, heat system is screwed, including the ghost heat system.

I do not agree PPCs are underpowered. They are simply not the best weapon outside of guass, AC20, and rarely the UAC5, to take at all ranges anymore like they were.

I do agree with you on gauss loading times. Gauss was never the issue.

I also took a look at your post history and join date. Let me guess? You started in the middle of the ppc/gauss warrior metagame, enjoyed it, and now that its somewhat balanced youre angry?

[Lightfoot]

Yep, Energy weapons are hit too hard by the heat nerfs MWO has invented. DHS 1.4, ghost heat, heat boosting, also 2x recharge, which Energy weapons never get to benefit from due to heat nerfs.

Suggest faster heat dissapation based on total heatsinks. Maybe they keep their heat sinking value as is, but dissapate heat like normal DHS or SHS.