19 replies to this topic

[soarra]

Just in case some people didn't see this one
http://paranerds.com/?p=13325

[Aerokii]

From the review... "Even if you loathe light mechs I’d still recommend buying one just to have a fighting chance, as the few bonuses are meant to give an edge to new players don’t work."

What a strange thing to say. Plus ECM as an "I win" button? Hrm. Someone buy this man a BAP.

EDIT: removing pointless color tags.

Edited by Aerokii, 19 September 2013 - 05:24 AM.

[Jestun]

BAP and LRM are essentially incompatible [edit] as a counter to ECM [/edit] due to min range of LRMs and the range of BAP. Tag is a little better but is a direct fire solution with lower range for an indirect fire weapon.

That said, ECM is considerably better balanced than it was for months when the only counter to ECM was more ECM.

Edited by Jestun, 19 September 2013 - 08:13 AM.

[Aerokii]

I suppose you're right- for some reason I forget about TAG. I missed the part of the game where ECM was introduced (luckily), so I've only really seen its more balanced version.

[Krivvan]

Aerokii, on 19 September 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

From the review... "Even if you loathe light mechs I’d still recommend buying one just to have a fighting chance, as the few bonuses are meant to give an edge to new players don’t work."

Light mechs are the worst thing for a new player to first heavily invest in. They require a significant amount of experience before they end up being on par with heavies and assaults.

[Aerokii]

Krivvan, on 19 September 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

Light mechs are the worst thing for a new player to first heavily invest in. They require a significant amount of experience before they end up being on par with heavies and assaults.

Agreed. I've built fully loaded and upgraded 100 Ton Assaults that have cost less than I've needed for my lights. Even after getting it where I want it, I still got legged from a single shot and spent the rest of the match limping around worthlessly.

[Zerberus]

Jestun, on 19 September 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

BAP and LRM are essentially incompatible due to min range of LRMs and the range of BAP. Tag is a little better but is a direct fire solution with lower range for an indirect fire weapon.

Disagree 100%. If you run LRMs and don`t take a BAP, it is entirely your fault that your missiles lose lock and get wasted everytime a Spider-D or Trollmando leghumps you.

[Jestun]

LRMs do 0 damage under 180m. what's the effective range of BAP (I'm on my phone and cba to try to find out)?

[Aerokii]

Jestun, on 19 September 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

LRMs do 0 damage under 180m. what's the effective range of BAP (I'm on my phone and cba to try to find out)?

Upon inspection, it looks like it works as a full counter under 150m, but it increases sensor range and decreases general lock time by 25% each. Still though, too close for LRMs, as you said.

For further reading.

[Roadbeer]

Hmmm, extended sensor range and reduced lock time by 25% and it's useless?

Care to explain that to me

[Jestun]

who said it was useless or gave no other benefits.

I said it was incompatible with LRMs in response to this: "Plus ECM as an "I win" button? Hrm. Someone buy this man a BAP" which I maintain is accurate (although perhaps poorly worded, cannot edit posts on Andriod Firefox).

:Edit:

Back on my PC now, post edited to reflect *what* it is ineffective as.

Edited by Jestun, 19 September 2013 - 08:13 AM.

[Roadbeer]

Fair enough.
In that situation, BAP isn't helpful, but if you incorporate another "I Win" feature... teamwork... then it mitigates itself

[AC]

Not a bad review. PGI asked for these kinds of reviews when they decided to push forward with "Launch".

[Sandpit]

Krivvan, on 19 September 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

Light mechs are the worst thing for a new player to first heavily invest in. They require a significant amount of experience before they end up being on par with heavies and assaults.

Lights are a good choice at first glance because most assume that would be the logical starting point because in most games you start there and work up to a heavy type vehicle. Lights are the least friendly much to new players honestly. They require a LOT of skill and knowledge to use them properly and not just get cored in the first five seconds of a match due to their light armor

[KhanCipher]

Aerokii, on 19 September 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

What a strange thing to say. Plus ECM as an "I win" button? Hrm. Someone buy this man a BAP.

if he was talking about when ECM was introduced then yes (which he was since he also brought up that jenners were suppose to have a variant that could equip ECM till the community shot that down for good reasons), it was pretty much a "I Win" button when it came to Jenners vs. Ravens/Commandos

[Farpenoodle]

I think the JR7-D possibly getting ECM was the first thing I got legitimately mad about in this game. Lol.

[MustrumRidcully]

Farpenoodle, on 20 September 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

I think the JR7-D possibly getting ECM was the first thing I got legitimately mad about in this game. Lol.

And while I was on your side in that discussion, it lead us to months where the JR7-D was useless and replaced by the Raven 3L, simply because ECM was too good and could be combined with the best light counter - Streak missiles.

I mean, the devs said: "ECM is kinda overpowered in our internal tests", but we didn't really understand what they meant until they actually gave it to us.

[General Taskeen]

Aerokii, on 19 September 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

What a strange thing to say. Plus ECM as an "I win" button? Hrm. Someone buy this man a BAP.

Because in context, it still is.

You have to realize some of these reviewers also played Mech Warrior 3, 4, and LL. None of those games had an ECM that shut off weapons - and that's where they are coming from. And like me, some of these reviewers like classic designs, which if you bring into battle, it is really a gamble in a random match, especially if you are bringing missiles on whatever classic design one likes to play with.

Edited by General Taskeen, 20 September 2013 - 08:59 AM.

[Aerokii]

General Taskeen, on 20 September 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

Because in context, it still is.

You have to realize some of these reviewers also played Mech Warrior 3, 4, and LL. None of those games had an ECM that shut off weapons - and that's where they are coming from. And like me, some of these reviewers like classic designs, which if you bring into battle, it is really a gamble in a random match, especially if you are bringing missiles on whatever classic design one likes to play with.

The context you reference seems awfully narrow to me. As has been brought up elsewhere in the thread, there are multiple potential counters, the best of which result from team play. Victory is far from assured just because someone brought an ECM with them.

This game ISN'T MW3, MW4, or MW:LL. In some ways that's good, and in some that's bad. Treating it like it is, or worse, SHOULD be those games is a perilous road.

[AC]

General Taskeen, on 20 September 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

Because in context, it still is.

You have to realize some of these reviewers also played Mech Warrior 3, 4, and LL. None of those games had an ECM that shut off weapons - and that's where they are coming from. And like me, some of these reviewers like classic designs, which if you bring into battle, it is really a gamble in a random match, especially if you are bringing missiles on whatever classic design one likes to play with.

Aerokii, on 20 September 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

The context you reference seems awfully narrow to me. As has been brought up elsewhere in the thread, there are multiple potential counters, the best of which result from team play. Victory is far from assured just because someone brought an ECM with them.

This game ISN'T MW3, MW4, or MW:LL. In some ways that's good, and in some that's bad. Treating it like it is, or worse, SHOULD be those games is a perilous road.

I agree with both of you, but to clarify my view, this game isn't quite Battletech either with the strange buffs they have given certain weapons/equipment.

ECM was never suppose to block missile locks. It was only designed to prevent bonuses like Narc and Art+LRM/SRM. It also blocked C3 networks (which PGI decided to give to every mech for some reason). ECM got the mega buff it did because they did not know how to fix Streak SRM's at the time, or balance LRM's. (Remember Missile Warrior Online?) Now that streaks are balanced and LRM's are balanced (when ECM is not in use) I don't see why we can't make ECM do what it was suppose to do in battletech.





EDIT: Couple more things to consider. PPC/ERPPC got the buff to shut down ECM, even though there is no battletech lore for it, and TAG got the buff to negate ECM as well and ended up replacing NARC even though that is not what it does in battetech. These buff came about because ECM was overpowered, and ECM was overpowered because streaks were overpowered back in the day.

PGI seems to create huge cascading balance issues because they are unable to identify and fix the root cause issue. This is not the only example of these layered balancing acts. If we want to know why the game is in the state it is in, it is due to all the programing and resources that were spent on creating features to balance other features that balance yet other features, when instead just fixing the root cause would have saved a ton of time and resources.

Edited by AC, 20 September 2013 - 12:26 PM.