37 replies to this topic

[Ngamok]

PanzerMagier, on 19 September 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

Yes because let's completely forget about heat and range. 2 LPL takes 4 extra tons than 2 LL and generate almost a 3rd LL's heat on their own.

Heat wise 2 LL or 3LL > 2LPL
Range wise 2 LL > 2 LPL
still think that .4 is a little too much?

And you only need 4 (NOT 6!) medium lasers to outperform 2 LPL. Less heat almost same range, a save of whopping 10 tons.


I can do exactly the same with regular mediums/large lasers.
So that's quite a rubbish reason. I'd rather get more armour/bigger engine thanks.

So my argument remains, why would I take a LPL if I could just take 2 mediums instead? What is making me WANT to spend that extra 5 tons? 5 tons is A LOT if you're trying to make a neat build. As it stands now I'd rather take mediums or regular large lasers since they're much more efficient, in overall performance. Heck even the PPC out performs the LPL somewhat.

And that's the bottom line, heat will determine who can shoot more lasers. and brawling with LPL just doesn't cut it for me. I'd love to see them become brawler staples but they're just rubbish at the moment.

Then take your mediums and what not. I'll take my LPLs on my Stalker and run around legging lights that come around faster than you can with LLs. It's all good. I'll keep my rubbish reason.

[Spheroid]

The difference in beam duration is only .4 seconds. If we are having a shootout between large pulse and large laser I don't think it is wise to automatically assume that you will miss with the rest of your laser beam between .6 seconds and one second. I could easily see eighty percent of or more of the beam landing on the intended body segment. I am not a Large pulse hater, I believed in them when they used to sync with medium lasers and large lasers had longer timers, but no longer.

[Aluminumfoiled]

I read this this morning and decided to try the LPL again. Hadn't used it since the duration buff. Always did like Pulses but the range is an issue for me in mediums.

Sweet. Duration is very nice. Just had 5-6 very good drops with 1 LPL in my Treb 7K. Hot yes but so much cooler than the ERPPC nowadays. Always did like the damage output.

Thanks for posting this and you know, just say look at the score when the haters come out. I get it for no ballistic mounted in my 7K. One pilot called me stupid. And of course they were dead and my score was double theirs. I want the torso energy mount lacking in the other variants. Treb arms are so very temporary.

Odd stuff works really well sometimes. Not current meta stuff works really well sometimes. Rock on.

edit: line through

Edited by MicroVent, 19 September 2013 - 11:50 AM.

[lsp]

Never understood why people like pulse lasers, the'yre the exact same thing. But they create more heat, and spread the damage around more. Excuse me, you get 1 more point of damage for alot more heat, lol no thanks.

Edited by lsp, 19 September 2013 - 12:01 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Prathios, on 18 September 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

Min/Maxing was never my thing.

And this is why you don't understand the LPL's flaws.

Honestly it's biggest crime, right now, is the fact that it ghost heats at 2. It's cooler than the PPC now, and without the velocity drawback, so I could make a case for it much more if not for Paul's failed-5th-grade Maths.

[Devils Advocate]

The Wee Baby Seamus, on 19 September 2013 - 04:30 AM, said:

You're making very many different points here. It's not about what "feels" good, but more about results. If a Mech can at least perform well, you could argue that it's not broken.

But as for your last statement: Of course a Mech should perform well in "specific" situations; most Mech builds, with very few exceptions, specialise on a certain role. That's the entire point. And LLPs are excellent for certain roles.

The point I'm making is that the weapon is a poor choice compared against others in its category in the vast majority of circumstances using the majority of available metrics even if people are capable of using it "effectively." At ranges outside of 300 it's worse than a large laser, or where you could use the extra 2 tons somewhere else, or where heat is a concern for your build. That doesn't mean it isn't dangerous or doesn't work, but it means the only time it's objectively superior to the large laser is in fast moving skirmishes inside of 300 meters, which is too specific an instance to call the weapon comparatively balanced. The only reason anyone would use it over the large laser is because it 'feels good' since the large laser is useful in so many more circumstances and affords you more options in the mechbay with the tonnage you save.

I believe the LPL is superior to the LL in too specific of an instance to be considered balanced against the LL in any meaningful way as it currently exists. Right now it feels like a ******* laser when it should, in theory, serve a different tactical purpose.

Edited by Devils Advocate, 19 September 2013 - 12:12 PM.

[Aluminumfoiled]

lsp, on 19 September 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

Never understood why people like pulse lasers, the'yre the exact same thing. But they create more heat, and spread the damage around more. Excuse me, you get 1 more point of damage for alot more heat, lol no thanks.

Well I'm running anywhere from 102 -115kph. Beam duration can be a big deal at times like in frozen city buildings. I run pretty heat neutral and I have to keep moving. As I posted just started using them again but they have a place now I think. Time will tell.

I think you mis-stated about spreading the damage around. Pulse is tight and quick.

Edited by MicroVent, 19 September 2013 - 12:20 PM.

[KharnZor]

MicroVent, on 19 September 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

I think you mis-stated about spreading the damage around. Pulse is tight and quick.

Nope, he's hasn't misstated anything, he's just plain wrong.

[Aluminumfoiled]

Devils Advocate, on 19 September 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

......

I believe the LPL is superior to the LL in too specific of an instance to be considered balanced against the LL in any meaningful way as it currently exists. Right now it feels like a ******* laser when it should, in theory, serve a different tactical purpose.

And what you wrote here is sinking in. Think you are correct probably. Not my only or my long range when I used it. More like my medium range.

BUT IT SOUNDS SO COOL!

[Victor Morson]

lsp, on 19 September 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

Never understood why people like pulse lasers, the'yre the exact same thing. But they create more heat, and spread the damage around more. Excuse me, you get 1 more point of damage for alot more heat, lol no thanks.

As stated it cuts the beam duration down and not "spreads it around more."

A Small Pulse duration is 0.5 seconds versus a small at 1 second. When you're dogfighting at 120+kph, that is a huge deal.

[lsp]

Don't play lights, and never had any trouble with keeping lasers on target. Even in my 90kph dragon, infact I have 85% accuracy with my Mlas. Seems irrelevant unless your bad at this game. And not worth the extra heat.
And it is spreading the damage around, because of the pauses inbetween the burst, and less time on target. Instead of cutting a huge line out of someone's armor, your leaving little spots. Game mechanics may not actually work that way, I don't know. But that's how it would be in reality.

Edited by lsp, 19 September 2013 - 12:40 PM.

[Victor Morson]

lsp, on 19 September 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

Don't play lights, and never had any trouble with keeping lasers on target. Even in my 90kph dragon, infact I have 85% accuracy with my Mlas. Seems irrelevant unless your bad at this game. And not worth the extra heat.

Anyone who drives a non-flame Dragon is more likely the one bad at this game to be honest with you.

Also merely hitting the mech doesn't mean jack. Hitting specific locations does.

Finally, 90=/=130 kph.

[Praehotec8]

I like the LPL, and I run one on my Misery's CT. It's great for zombieing, and I can alternate it with my AC20 all day without overheating.

That being said....the LL is superior in nearly every situation except close-in brawling. Even in brawling it's ridiculously hot for what it provides. The heat from one LPL is tolerable, two is manageable. More than that and you spend more time chaining and watching your heat gauge than is worth it IMO. I find it hard to imagine one 4 LPL stalker taking on 2 and 3 well equipped, reasonably skilled heavy/assaults and winning regularly. OP, if you say you can, I believe you, but I imagine it's due more to your skill or opponent's lack thereof, than due to the inherent utility of the LPL. Then again, I never understood the 4-6 PPC stalkers either (I would always get noticed and torn to bits during high heat moments).

The heat plus the increased weight really limits it to a niche role, compared to the LL's general all around utility.

[Gaan Cathal]

lsp, on 19 September 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

Don't play lights, and never had any trouble with keeping lasers on target. Even in my 90kph dragon, infact I have 85% accuracy with my Mlas. Seems irrelevant unless your bad at this game. And not worth the extra heat.
And it is spreading the damage around, because of the pauses inbetween the burst, and less time on target. Instead of cutting a huge line out of someone's armor, your leaving little spots. Game mechanics may not actually work that way, I don't know. But that's how it would be in reality.

Two things:

a: 85% accuracy with a laser weapon with the way MWO mines stat data means not that you're getting 85% of your beam time on target, but that only 85% of your shots get any beam time on target (a single damage tick means a beam 'hits').

b: Game mechanics don't work that way. A LPL does 10.6 damage over 0.6s, with a 3.25s cooldown. A LL does 9.0 damage over 1s, with a 3.25s cooldown. That means that the LPL not only does more damage per shot, it takes less time to make that shot and it's overall start-of-shot-to-start-of-shot time is actually shorter. To look at it another way, each 0.1s on target with a LPL does 1.76* damage, each 0.1s on target with a LL does 0.9 damage.

[Psikez]

Some of my current fun builds are ac20/2LPL and they perform quite nicely

[Prathios]

Alistair Winter, on 19 September 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

This is where I stopped reading.
*snip*

Congratulations, you're whats wrong with civil discourse in the world today. You added nothing to the conversation, but you did prove the quality of your character.

As for the rest of the comments, I think many of you are theory crafting. I have stacks of large lasers in my mech bay because it's such a useful weapon, and only a handful of LPL. However, if I'm building a brawling mech, the LPL wins every single time. I will get more dps, more dps to the spot I want, and cut down on my opponents ability to torso turn my damage away. Furthermore, I can kill light mechs with almost hysterical precision.

Think of it this way, 4 LPL is not for alpha striking, it's for keeping a steady rain of shots on target. I alternate my arm weapons, then my torso weapons. Using 2 at a time, I'm essentially firing an ac20 shot every second. I only need a tiny, tiny window to core cataphracts or jagers. Assaults last a little longer but still die quickly. I think the biggest advantage is that nobody realizes how much dmg they are taking. Without the ballistic cockpit shake or the laser splashing across the screen they assume they are safe. They are also wonderful for cockpitting mechs, and finally the heat in a stalker alternating 2 at a time really isn't all that bad. I don't even mind using it on Terra Therma, it works just fine there. I can kill any mech in the game before overheating from near constant firing. I can keep the shots steadily going but not at max rate if the fighting continues.

Try it out, you might be very surprised. Hope to see you on the battlefield.

*edit* fixed some typos.

Edited by Prathios, 20 September 2013 - 02:27 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Prathios, on 20 September 2013 - 02:24 AM, said:

Congratulations, you're whats wrong with civil discourse in the world today. You added nothing to the conversation, but you did prove the quality of your character.

Oh, I like to think that I added something, just by showing some disdain for this kind of threads.

"Oh, look, I did 800 damage in my Spider 5V. Spiders are OP!"
"Look at me, I regularly do 4 kills and 600 damage in my Trebuchet!"
"Stop complaining about flamers, my KDR is 5.0"

If I'm to be accused for lack of civility, then let me accuse you of replicating a thousand identical threads without offering any kind of critical thinking or even reference to some of the arguments that have already been made a thousand times. Let me spell it out for you, so that I may copy-paste my reply in future threads that will no doubt continue to mindlessly repeat the same arguments.

• Just because you're doing well, doesn't mean that other people can do well. There are a few players in this game that maintain a 5+ KDR and W/L ratio, even if they play with sub-optimal builds. Because they're good players. I'm sure Koreanese could do 1000 damage playing a legged Spider with 1 MG and 1 ton of ammo. That doesn't mean the MG needs to be nerfed.
  
• Just because you're doing well, doesn't mean that you couldn't do better with other weapons. Some people like certain playing styles, some people like a challenge. I like the AWS-8Q, I play it a lot. I do ok with it. That doesn't mean I wouldn't do better with an AS7-D-DC. It doesn't mean the AWS-8Q is a good mech.
  
• The proof is in the pudding. Look at the people you're playing with, look at the builds they are using. Are you regularly getting beaten by people using LPLs? Is the LPL a common weapon among competitive 12-man teams? That kind of information is more valuable than your personal anecdotes. It's the same reason why I don't need any medium mech pilots telling me that medium mechs are better than assault mechs. I just look at what mechs people are actually using, and what mechs are actually getting the best scores.

EDIT: And just for the sake of being civil, let me add another point about why I found the opening lines of your post so unappealing: you're defending a weapon by saying that it works great when you boat it. Now, if you'd just said that it works great together with missiles and ballistics, like it should, then you would have a valid point (although you'd probably still be wrong for the reasons listed above). But offering boating as a solution speaks volumes about the sad state of the game, same as when people a couple of months ago offered this solution on how to make light mechs and medium mechs more viable: stick jump jets and PPCs on them.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 20 September 2013 - 03:08 AM.

[Orkhepaj]

large pulse lasers ? rofl , med lasers are superior