16 replies to this topic

[Nick REX Trebla]

Can someone explain why in the Pilot's skill-tree of a Raven (Pilot Lab > Mech Trees) there is "Arm Reflex" for example??? Isn't it pretty useless as the Raven has NOT moving arms???? O.o

[ShockATC]

Well, arms are also the "side-slaps" that you can move up and down.

[Ashenfall]

Wrong

The Raven DOES in fact have arms. But unlike the arms you're probably familiar with on the Commando, Hunchback, Cataphract etc. they only move up and down, not left and right. Arm reflex does affect the Raven's up and down aim speed, along with the Jenner's

Arguably the useless skill in this game is the elite tier Pinpoint, which supposedly speeds up convergence on weapons. Convergence however, has been removed from the game since closed beta, and all weapons, arm mounted or torso mounted, converge instantly, so Pinpoint really is useless. Every other pilot skill has some benefit

[Nick REX Trebla]

Up and down uh? ... ok. ty... meh...

[Koniving]

Nick REX Trebla, on 20 September 2013 - 01:26 AM, said:

Can someone explain why in the Pilot's skill-tree of a Raven (Pilot Lab > Mech Trees) there is "Arm Reflex" for example??? Isn't it pretty useless as the Raven has NOT moving arms???? O.o

Truth be told... Arm reflex actually affects torso twist. And the torso twist one doesn't have an effect.

But these have been low priority, and most people don't even notice. There's supposed to be a revamping of pilot skills soon.
I just freaking hope that they remove "Heat Containment" and "Cool Run."

Oh and the convergence one is also useless -- convergence is instant.

[scJazz]

Fast Fire is also useless dead skill like Convergence

[Aym]

Koniving, on 20 September 2013 - 04:53 AM, said:

Truth be told... Arm reflex actually affects torso twist. And the torso twist one doesn't have an effect.

But these have been low priority, and most people don't even notice. There's supposed to be a revamping of pilot skills soon.
I just freaking hope that they remove "Heat Containment" and "Cool Run."

Oh and the convergence one is also useless -- convergence is instant.

Can you show us where there is evidence of a ravamp coming soon to pilot skills? I ask because I thought they said they were satisfied with the current system as they'd abandoned the earlier design goal (pillar?)

scJazz, on 20 September 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

Fast Fire is also useless dead skill like Convergence

I thought they fixed fast fire, although it USED to slow down your fire ironically... I thought that's why their idea of .52 CD on the AC2 didn't fix it's ghost heat issue.

[Koniving]

Aym, on 20 September 2013 - 05:08 AM, said:

Can you show us where there is evidence of a ravamp coming soon to pilot skills? I ask because I thought they said they were satisfied with the current system as they'd abandoned the earlier design goal (pillar?)

All I got is the statement provided somewhere between ATD 40 and 45. And honestly they abandoned a LOT of early design pillars. There's also been questions popping up asking about GXP refunds on the skills that get radically changed.
-----
I've been keeping a notepad that I call "Intelligent Game Design."

Whenever I think of something, I throw in a note to work on relating to something PGI did, and how it could have been better designed to fulfill one or more of the design pillars.

Role warfare and information warfare being at the top of the pillar list of what's been abandoned.

Various design changes include a non-cloaking ECM

Spoiler

that instead provides misinformation (ghost targets that read as other mechs some distance away) and jams specific target data (until a certain range although you can target that ECM mech, you can't get any specifics on what that mech has), as well as a target multiplier (Creates false targets around itself, with no specific information, and only one said target is actually him. These do not appear in the same places for anyone, making it difficult for missile boats to hit them but not impossible -- the more mechs that can visually see the ECM mech multiplying targets, the more his false targets are reduced). But at no time whatsoever is an ECM mech invisible to sensors. <--still hashing this one out

Using specific heat thresholds and a non-rising system as a method of mech tweaking/quirks,

Spoiler

favoring higher limits on energy only mechs that are meant to use PPCs (thus allowing them to), average limits on mixed weapon mechs, and lower limits on ballistic mechs (making them rely more on the ballistics).

Role specific tweaks.

Spoiler

Most recently a change to mechs without lower arm actuators to where convergence is not possible for arm weapons. This would put Jagermechs into the combat support role they are designed for, favoring longer ranges where the lack of convergence will matter less and encouraging them to continue to carry torso mounted lasers so that they could have a converging shorter range defense. Though this may need some tweaking as it may lead to PPC boating on Jagers. But otherwise this might make the Jager JM6-A the unintentional favorite.

This would also drastically change how certain mechs with a single lower arm actuator work.

Overall this would change how the entire aim system works, as mechs without lower arm actuators would get their very own crosshair that moves up and down and is off center.

Other iterations of this idea include no convergence for anything except arms with lower arm actuators. However, this needs some real in-depth conception work. (This of course, does favor turreted weapon systems. For example the Marauder with the torso mounted turret. The locust. The Wolverine. Any mech with a turret, would be able to track those turreted weapons to where the arms are pointed. If the mech does not have lower arm actuators but has a turret, then only the turret would track.)

Also included in this list, are rear-mounted weapons and flippable arms (as one of the quirks for having arms without lower arm actuators; oh sure you don't get convergence but whenever you need to you can fire backwards at the flip of a switch!)

And I'm throwing in this tidbit with the design pillar "information warfare" about the Seismic Sensor.

Spoiler

There's actually five pages of information warfare stuff, so I'm typing a summary of just one such thing: The Seismic Sensor.

The concept of a seismic sensor is a relatively simple one. It measures vibrations in the ground. How? The only feasible way is through your feet. Therefore your feet should have to be planted for it to work. If you are moving you're also causing little earthquakes, which should either stop its functionality or greatly distort the readings.

Also remember that much of the universe's tech is about useless. 500+ years of endless wars, hundreds of thousands of planets all inhabited with thousands upon thousands of solar systems with years upon years of travel to get from one to another even with FTL speeds as well as the insanely over protective Comstar hording all the good tech... and to compare Battletech's universe to Firefly would be an understatement to how bad off the universe is supposed to be. Many battlemechs are beyond 30 years old, some hundreds of years old and passed along from generation to generation.

So all in all, the "It's the year 3,050" argument is hardly a valid one for advanced tech. Hell, these people are written in recent, modern books as still using FAX" as a means of communicating over great distances. Yes. They slide a piece of freaking paper through a machine, and have it send a signal that prints it somewhere else. And this is considered a "secure" means of communicating! Their tech SUCKS! O_O

That said.. PGI's implementation is a motion sensor. Not a seismic sensor. Therefore even if you don't move it should not be quite so precise.

For a good example of a seismic sensor, consider watching the only Gundam where the machines make sense: "The 08th MS Team." They use an APC that plants a sensor into the ground and a guy literally listens in for signals to get a general idea of where they are, how far they are, and what they might be (but only because the guy has been doing his job for years and has very attuned hearing).

and the list goes on.

Edited by Koniving, 20 September 2013 - 06:45 AM.

[scJazz]

Aym, on 20 September 2013 - 05:08 AM, said:

I thought they fixed fast fire, although it USED to slow down your fire ironically... I thought that's why their idea of .52 CD on the AC2 didn't fix it's ghost heat issue.

Read this...
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2726475

Everyone assumed that PGI is stupid rather than examining things like facts. When the CD was moved to 0.52 and people still had issues with Ghost Heat everyone jumped to the actual stupid conclusion that PGI couldn't do simple math. Not surprising really since a rather large number of people assume PGI is stupid rather than considering things like cold hard facts and business decisions that need to be made based on what is possible now rather than what is desirable later.

I jumped off the PGI is stupid bandwagon after I studied the AC2 Cool Down/Fast Fire thing and wrote the above post.

[Koniving]

scJazz, on 20 September 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

Fast Fire is also useless dead skill like Convergence

For me it's a hated skill. But I wouldn't call it useless. Unfortunately even with the increased cooldown on AC/2s, any mech using fast fire and chain fire can still incite the chainfired AC/2 penalty bug. Smurfy lists every weapon as firing slightly faster.

Is it useless on specific weapons? If so, which?

[scJazz]

Koniving, on 20 September 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

For me it's a hated skill. But I wouldn't call it useless. Unfortunately even with the increased cooldown on AC/2s, any mech using fast fire and chain fire can still incite the chainfired AC/2 penalty bug. Smurfy lists every weapon as firing slightly faster.

Is it useless on specific weapons? If so, which?

It is useless in the sense that like Pin Point it does... nothing. Read my post.

[Koniving]

scJazz, on 20 September 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

It is useless in the sense that like Pin Point it does... nothing. Read my post.

Interesting. I know the penalty only affects triple AC/2s for me (despite the limit being 4) when fired at the same time (but one of them always seems to lag behind for unknown some reason).

My only real testing of fast fire has been with the UAC/5. I suppose I'll have to retry that test to see if it's totally been dropped.

[scJazz]

scJazz, on 20 September 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

Read this...
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2726475

Read it... I already did the test Besides it is one of my cogent and lucid posts and it is a good read

[Aym]

scJazz, on 20 September 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

Read this...
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2726475

Everyone assumed that PGI is stupid rather than examining things like facts. When the CD was moved to 0.52 and people still had issues with Ghost Heat everyone jumped to the actual stupid conclusion that PGI couldn't do simple math. Not surprising really since a rather large number of people assume PGI is stupid rather than considering things like cold hard facts and business decisions that need to be made based on what is possible now rather than what is desirable later.

I jumped off the PGI is stupid bandwagon after I studied the AC2 Cool Down/Fast Fire thing and wrote the above post.

Well it's nice that you have shown the .52 isn't an awful thing if we assume PGI knew their skill didn't work. Which again, is great, except for the patch where they said it used to slow down fire but now was working as intended, which I may be mis-remembering and maybe they said it used to slow you down and now it does nothing? I think that would have stood out in my memory more, but we're none of us perfect.

[Koniving]

scJazz, on 20 September 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

Read it... I already did the test Besides it is one of my cogent and lucid posts and it is a good read

You tested PPCs. (Least that's all you showed the example of). But having tested it on the UAC/5 just now, it seems all I'm doing is when firing at 1.43 is I'm firing a double-tap, leaving the cooldown timer to not even run during the next 1.43 cycle. Sadly I can't afford the 1/10th delay for the macro.

Seems it's fast-fire is now dead too. It'd be a pretty valid belief that perhaps they deliberately shut down fast fire because of this because it did work at one point. (Then again, so did convergence at one point before they made convergence instant).

Edited by Koniving, 20 September 2013 - 06:15 AM.

[scJazz]

Aym, on 20 September 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

Well it's nice that you have shown the .52 isn't an awful thing if we assume PGI knew their skill didn't work.

scJazz, on 05 September 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

That is three specific data points. The Aug 20 patch notes, Daemur's spreadsheet, and a specific reply.

There are very few conclusions that can be drawn from the above and some fly in the face of logic.

1 ) Despite all the threads, posts, patch changes to a discrete value (0.52 sec), Daemur's Spread Sheet, and his reply; PGI/Daemur doesn't know what they/he are doing. VERY VERY UNLIKELY!!!

We have to assume that PGI knew the skill doesn't work i.e. not stupid. On what other planet, despite hundreds of posts, replies, specific changes to a discrete value, does it become logical to assume that they didn't know and were being stupid?

OK they didn't tell us about it. I'll give you that one. My best guess is that the change was made during a netcode/server optimization. Since the only people who would have possibly noticed were AC2 users at the time and even they weren't likely to notice since the change is 0.0125 seconds. No one else was Macroing to such fine tolerances. No one would ever macro PPCs to fire in such a way. Anything else could just be seen as latency.

Koniving, on 20 September 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

You tested PPCs. (Least that's all you showed the example of). But having tested it on the UAC/5 just now, it seems all I'm doing is when firing at 1.43 is I'm firing a double-tap, leaving the cooldown timer to not even run during the next 1.43 cycle. Sadly I can't afford the 1/10th delay for the macro.

yeah that 1/10th sec padding is why I used the PPC to test. Slowest firing weapon with obvious effect... bang... that I could test since I didn't have boat capable of FFing an LRM20.

[Alaskan Nobody]

O.o......


scJazz.... Koniving... If I ever... EVER start up a videogaming company.... (rather unlikely as that may be )

...Can I hire you two?