33 replies to this topic

[BUDFORCE]

Is there a build anywhere that actually benefits from single heat sinks?

If not, are double heat sinks effectivly a stealth way of making each mech more expensive to extend the grind/encourage the purchase of MC?

[General Taskeen]

Nope, at least not in effective 'competive' fashion, or unless you're just sluggling around some Gauss Rifles or MG's.

They are barely manageable. I've been begrudgingly using them since Closed Beta, for "challenge mode," which is akin to ********* mode and mind-numbing torture.

Literally, a 10SHS build, like say on a Commando stock build, which would have been "heat efficient" enough in TT, with SHS, is barely manageable on a Cold Map, and completely ineffective on a hot map. Literally, you will have to wait up to 40+ seconds to cool down while you're getting blown to bits.

Hence why every build uses DHS to mitigate the heat intensity monsters of the improperly balanced heatsinks.

Now, the real kicker is why a Dev said "SHS are working as intended." If the goal is for SHS to work as intended by having to cool off over a minute, then that's pretty messed up. Heatsinks have been really messed up since Closed Beta. They disappate heat incredibly slow, and the more heat sinks you have, the more it raises your "heat threshold" which is an unfortunate design feature that only exists in MWO, not in any Mech Warrior game to date.

Second bit - And now that trials don't have to use the original stock Mechs, PGI has caused a few things by doing this - it can hide the fact that SHS are terrible, players have to grind to keep their Mechs to be even close to competitive (firing as much as possible and running "cooler" with DHS), and it does not promote new players to be interested in Stock Mechs at all and learn more about those "classic" designs from Battle Tech record sheets.

Edited by General Taskeen, 17 September 2013 - 11:51 AM.

[Jzaltheral]

There are a couple of very rare edge cases where the upgrade to DHS doesn't gain you any benefit, but by and large, DHS are required if you plan to be competitive at all.

[FupDup]

SHS currently only exist to make new players go through an additional 15-20 matches to have a working build.

[Bishop Steiner]

They teach ya heat management.


or is it anger management........


can never remember........

[Rhaythe]

As mentioned previously - if you're using an ammunition build (IE: Gauss/LBX plus MG plus 2 med lasers) single heat sinks are fine. Maybe even desireable if you mount them in the legs. When you start adding lasers, heat happens.

[Hans Von Lohman]

All I can see them doing is nerfing DHS and buffing up SHS at the same time so that DHS are not a required upgrade.

After all if an upgrade is considered a must have then it might be too good.

Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

[BUDFORCE]

Hans Von Lohman, on 17 September 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

What, that I dont have to spend an extra 1.5 mil on each mech to make it competative?

[Rhaythe]

BUDFORCE, on 19 September 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

What, that I dont have to spend an extra 1.5 mil on each mech to make it competative?

It's really not that hard to make a mech that's competitive with single heat sinks. Not to say it's super easy on all platforms, but it's not hard.

[CygnusX7]

ON1-VA SHS Build

[FupDup]

CygnusX7, on 19 September 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

ON1-VA SHS Build

ON1-VA Improved

It cools better than yours, moves faster, hits a bit harder (SRM 2 upgraded to SRM 4), and lasts longer (ammo moved to legs because the CT in vulnerable). The only issue is that I can't find a way to use up that last one ton of weight because there are no remaining slots, but it's still completely superior regardless.

EDIT: You can probably replace one ML with an MPL to use up that last ton if you feel like it.

Edited by FupDup, 19 September 2013 - 10:29 AM.

[CygnusX7]

FupDup, on 19 September 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

ON1-VA Improved

It cools better than yours, moves faster, hits a bit harder (SRM 2 upgraded to SRM 4), and lasts longer (ammo moved to legs because the CT in vulnerable). The only issue is that I can't find a way to use up that last one ton of weight because there are no remaining slots, but it's still completely superior regardless.

EDIT: You can probably replace one ML with an MPL to use up that last ton if you feel like it.

Ok now do it with SHS.
2 SRM4's get no heat penalty. 3 will.
So I still get an SRM8 on each arm without heat scale penalty.

Edited by CygnusX7, 19 September 2013 - 11:01 AM.

[Hoboshank]

Certain commando builds work with single heat sinks... even with a maxed engine you will need 2 externals, so you either have to give up extra tonnage from ferro, weapons/ammo/ecm, or stay with single hs's.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ace06fc4009ecf6

[Thomas Dziegielewski]

BUDFORCE, on 17 September 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

Is there a build anywhere that actually benefits from single heat sinks?

If not, are double heat sinks effectivly a stealth way of making each mech more expensive to extend the grind/encourage the purchase of MC?

Yes.
Having 4 single heatsinks in your legs and standing in water gives you a boost of up to 100% depending how deep the water is.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 19 September 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

Yes.
Having 4 single heatsinks in your legs and standing in water gives you a boost of up to 100% depending how deep the water is.

We're aware of this mechanic, but even in that instance

(SHS Base 10) + 4 SHS in legs, doubled = 18H/10s, 4 tons
(DHS 10) + 0 DHS = 20H/10s, 0 tons.

So that point is moot.

[Hoboshank]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 19 September 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

Yes.
Having 4 single heatsinks in your legs and standing in water gives you a boost of up to 100% depending how deep the water is.

It's an interesting mechanic for sure... but there are only 3 maps where you'll be fighting in water with any frequency... And considering you cant tell what map you'll be dropped in makes the situational advantage of shs too great a risk usually.

Edit: 4 maps, forgot to count river city twice

Edited by Hoboshank, 19 September 2013 - 11:14 AM.

[Corbon Zackery]

It depends on the build and the weapons your using.

If your running a Jenner with Endo, FF and a XL. You don't have room for double heat sinks except if your just transferring over the 10 in your engine/

I run single heat sinks on 50% of my builds and, I don't have any issues at all. As long as you know how many times you can fire your weapons and know how to cool the mech down your fine.

You don't need double heat sinks for:
4 medium lasers
1 SRM 6

Nice to have not really needed.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Corbon Zackery, on 19 September 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

It depends on the build and the weapons your using.

If your running a Jenner with Endo, FF and a XL. You don't have room for double heat sinks except if your just transferring over the 10 in your engine/

I run single heat sinks on 50% of my builds and, I don't have any issues at all. As long as you know how many times you can fire your weapons and know how to cool the mech down your fine.

You don't need double heat sinks for:
4 medium lasers
1 SRM 6

Nice to have not really needed.

The only mech that this EVER applies to is the commando, where you CANNOT have 10 internal HS. ( And honestly, what jenner DOESN'T have at least a 255XL? Or Raven/Spider?

In the commando instance, a 200XL or 210XL is the most common, and the game requires you to have at least 10 HS. The commando needs Endo and FF to run anything decent, so it lacks the extra 6 Criticals.

On top of that, it also DOESN'T have the 2 extra tons in thefirst place! Any commando would be fully content with 8 DHS. So the commando is either shafted by heat with singles, or is shafted in tonnage needing 10 Heat sinks.

[Kaeb Odellas]

CygnusX7, on 19 September 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

Ok now do it with SHS.
2 SRM4's get no heat penalty. 3 will.
So I still get an SRM8 on each arm without heat scale penalty.

I think his point was that he built a mech that was faster, harder-hitting, and more heat efficient just by switching to DHS and spending the weight savings on a bigger engine and slightly bigger alpha with a ton to spare, which he could easily just spend on maxing out leg armor. Even with the SRM heat scale penalty his Orion is more heat efficient than yours.

Corbon Zackery, on 19 September 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

It depends on the build and the weapons your using.

If your running a Jenner with Endo, FF and a XL. You don't have room for double heat sinks except if your just transferring over the 10 in your engine/

I run single heat sinks on 50% of my builds and, I don't have any issues at all. As long as you know how many times you can fire your weapons and know how to cool the mech down your fine.

You don't need double heat sinks for:
4 medium lasers
1 SRM 6

Nice to have not really needed.

You may be able to "manage" your heat with just singles, but you're absolutely crippling your ability to put out damage without DHS. Your exact build with DHS installed would be able to stay fighting over twice as long before heat starts becoming an issue, whereas you have to run off to cool down.

[OznerpaG]

the best way i can see making SHS a viable option is to make all engine heat sinks SHS no matter if you have SHS or DHS, and you could add external HS either SHS/1 crit or DHS/3 crit (with full 2.0 dissipation). then there would be a true choice whether to use one or the other depending on how many crit slots you have remaining on your mech. but regardless of what you decide internal engine HS should be, engine HS need to be the same modifier regardless if you have SHS or DHS or else DHS will always be the only choice

Edited by JagdFlanker, 19 September 2013 - 12:01 PM.