92 replies to this topic

[Serpentbane]

With the never stopping nerfing of the weapons to "balance" the game, I feel som much have gone wrong.
I have both the AWS-8Q and STK-5S. Assault mechs. You know, the kind of mechs that should make PPL a little loose in their panties. Only problem is, these models are (unless I do som LRM boating with the 5S), energy builds.
But the problem is I'm unable to do anything with them. If I put on something other than ML, these mechs are going to overheat mania. Ofcourse, I could fire one salvo or two from afar, and then hide and wait. But sooner than later I'm bound to end up in some close combat. I can then either fire everyting and hope for a kill before a shut down, or fire on laser at the time for e litte while (= doing no damage before being killed).
Assault mechs are rather slow, thus they have more armor and firepower. Or, they should. Using only ML, I can fit 7 of these on the AWS-8Q. But that is dumb, then its better to take the HBK-4P instead. It can fit 9 ML, or 7 with about the same cooling efficency.
Seing how spiders takes on assaults these days, we all know speed > armor. Is it wrong that this assault mech are able to effectively use LL, or the three PPCs it comes packed with from factory?
There is something fundamentaly wrong with the game in my opinion. MWO have allmost become a rock, paper, scissors 1. person shooter. Is this right? Should it be? In the name of balance?
PGI have not managed to make use of the roles each weight class have. There was no benifits of running lighter mechs, nor was there any limitations agains weight in a game. Running up against assault mechs, getting hammered as they should, ppl started crying about balance. With the result of, in the first round, making energy assault mechs usless for brawl/close combat. Whats next? They did the AC20 and Gaus nerf, but atleast those still work in a way.
Today I do, on avarage, more damage per round with my Raven, than I do with the awesome or stalker enegy builds. The raven is a scout and electronic warfare mech, not the new assault mech. The spider is even worse.
　
In my opinion the assault mechs should still be powerfull as hell, and grind trough everything in their way. PPL should choose other mechs because of other game mechanichs. Or the game should be balanced in some other way.
　
PS: Some ppl say that this is because I dont know how to build a stalker or awesome. Well, if anyone can build a energyplatform out of these, be my guest. Post your builds.

[Biglead]

Or how about everyone stop playing assaults for like 3 minutes.

Edited by Biglead, 21 September 2013 - 06:01 PM.

[Wolfways]

I've bought and sold my Stalker-3F over and over because i kind of like it (for an IS mech) but with so many energy hardpoints and no ballistics it's just too hard to find a build that doesn't melt the mech in a short time.
But then, i've basically given up on lasers in general. Why take a mech that overheats so much when you can use ballistics for much lower heat and much higher dps?

[FupDup]

If this game had fast cooling and a low heat capacity, mechs built around energy weapons would have a lot more stamina in a firefight. With PGI's slow cooling and high heat capacity, energy mechs are only good for dealing damage in large spikes before having to sit and cool off for a long time.

[h0wl]

Biglead, on 21 September 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

Or how about everyone stop playing assaults for like 3 minutes.

Maybe that's all he has. Regardless, if he wants to play his assaults he can. If he's angry that PGI dorked the mechs with their idiotic weapons mods he's entitled to that opinion.

[Biglead]

h0wl, on 21 September 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

Maybe that's all he has. Regardless, if he wants to play his assaults he can. If he's angry that PGI dorked the mechs with their idiotic weapons mods he's entitled to that opinion.

Well if youre going to follow the herd, don't ***** about it being crowded.

[Satan n stuff]

What you want for the 8Q is range brackets, you can't fire 7 energy weapons at once and expect to not overheat on the first or second shot, unless you're using only light weapons. Get some heavy energy weapons for long range, and some smaller ones for short range and only use the ones appropriate for any given situation. In an emergency like when you're about to die or you just need that extra bit of damage you can always alpha strike, but you shouldn't expect to be able to use it like that all the time.
My 8Q currently has 2 ER PPCs and 5 medium pulse lasers, mainly because I can't fill the weight with regular mediums and because they really are much better against lights because you can't track them all that well in an assault mech, but two pairs of large lasers and a few mediums or something similar should work too.
The biggest advantage energy weapons have is weight, and no matter how you build your mech you're going to run into the same limitations for heat sinkage, so having the most efficient energy weapons for multiple ranges and using them accordingly doesn't cost you much. On an 8Q any weapon will only cost you between one and a third of a double heat sink, unless you go for the ridiculously heavy builds. That's a negligible difference in heat sinkage, which you'll more than make up for by not having to fire inefficient long range weapons at close range.

The max heat sinkage on an 8Q using DHS is -4.1 assuming no unlocked skills. SHS can give better heat sinkage but they're not worth the weight. With that many heat sinks you can still fit a standard 300 engine, max standard armor and have 16.5 tons to spare. Of course you can't fit that many unless you think a single laser is enough firepower, so you'll need to lose at least 2, bringing your free weight to 18.5 tons. Lose one or two more heat sinks and some leg armor and you've got all the space and weight you need to fill your mech with a balanced weapon loadout that has at least 2 big guns and uses all your available hardpoints. You can even fit AMS if you want. The end result is a mech that's very close to maxed for heat sinkage with a balanced loadout that works efficiently from close range to whatever range you want.

[Spawnsalot]

Stop alpha striking. Downgrade a few weapons to lighter ones and fit more heatsinks? What's your build by the way?

And in the OP's defense he can play whatever weight-class he likes. Maybe the militant light crowd could contribute something more constructive to the thread than just "HUUUURR! Drive lights assault noob! DURR!!"?

[Conan Librarian]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e41697e44fe0616

3 weapon groups: left side, right side, torso one (I prefer STK-5M for this build). Never fire 2 or more groups at once unless you know what you're doing. This build isn't about high alpha, it's about good sustained damage at any range between 900m and 0m


I got 3 Stalkers, all of them boat various energy weapons (5 LL; 2 PPC + 2 ER LL + 2 SRM6; 4 LPL). I don't care how "viable" they are, they are easy to play and dish out tons of damage as long as you know how to avoid ghost heat thingy.

Ps. Credit for 5 LL build goes to villz, he posted videos about successful large laser boating back when gauss + 2 ppc's meta was dominating everything else.

Edited by Groovy4life, 22 September 2013 - 04:18 AM.

[Dirkdaring]

I hardly ever see Awesomes anymore. Played 4-5 matches yesterday and don't recall seeing a single one.

[Amsro]

Energy builds should be very heat efficient to be effective, if you wander on the field at or below 1.00 then expect to be pummled while shut down.

1.3-1.6 is the sweet range for energy builds. If your stalker is too hot, slow it down give it more heat sinks.

As well.... PGI REMOVE GHOST HEAT, not that it ever functioned but its completely useless now with new ER/PPC heat values.

[Alistair Winter]

FupDup, on 21 September 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

If this game had fast cooling and a low heat capacity, mechs built around energy weapons would have a lot more stamina in a firefight. With PGI's slow cooling and high heat capacity, energy mechs are only good for dealing damage in large spikes before having to sit and cool off for a long time.

I'm still waiting for single heat sink having a function in this game, such as having a low heat capacity and fast cooling compared to DHS. But that would have some unfortunate consequences such as 1) less grinding c-bills for every single mech you own and 2) DPS as a viable alternative to high alpha / burst damage.

We wouldn't want that.

Serpentbane, on 21 September 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

With the never stopping nerfing of the weapons to "balance" the game, I feel som much have gone wrong.
I have both the AWS-8Q and STK-5S. Assault mechs. You know, the kind of mechs that should make PPL a little loose in their panties. Only problem is, these models are (unless I do som LRM boating with the 5S), energy builds.
But the problem is I'm unable to do anything with them. If I put on something other than ML, these mechs are going to overheat mania. Ofcourse, I could fire one salvo or two from afar, and then hide and wait. But sooner than later I'm bound to end up in some close combat. I can then either fire everyting and hope for a kill before a shut down, or fire on laser at the time for e litte while (= doing no damage before being killed).

Stalker laser boats are so common that if you spend 5 minutes in the Guides & Strategies forum or Mechs & Loadout forum, you should find a dozen of the most deadly assault mech builds currently being used in the game.

The Awesome is more tricky, because it's lighter and it has a design and hitbox allocation that makes it the worst of all assault mechs since it was released. The main mistake people are doing with the Awesome, is playing it like you play other assault mechs. You can't. You have two options.

• Play it as a fire support mech, with medium or long range weapons.
  
• Play it as a fast striker with short or medium range weapons (AWS-9M with huge XL engine)

No matter how you play, you need to treat it as a glass cannon. It can do a lot of damage, but it can't take damage, so you need to either stay behind other heavy / assault mechs, or prey on weak, isolated targets.

AWS 8Q - 1 ER PPC, 2 PPC, 22 Dbl heat sinks, STD300 engine. 42% cooling efficiency. Classic fire support.
AWS 8Q - 3 LarLas, 4 MedLas, 22 Dbl heat sinks, STD300 engine. 40% cooling efficiency. Medium range fire support.
AWS 9M - 3 LarLas, 3 MedLas, 22 Dbl heat sinks, STD315 engine. 45% cooling efficiency. Medium range fire support.
AWS 9M - 3 LarLas, 3 MedLas, 23 Dbl heat sinks, XL375 engine. 47% cooling efficiency. Fast striker.

Serpentbane, on 21 September 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

Assault mechs are rather slow, thus they have more armor and firepower. Or, they should. Using only ML, I can fit 7 of these on the AWS-8Q. But that is dumb, then its better to take the HBK-4P instead. It can fit 9 ML, or 7 with about the same cooling efficency.

I agree. The advantage of the Awesome comes from the ability to combine medium and large lasers, and still maintain high DPS, even at longer range.

Serpentbane, on 21 September 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

Seing how spiders takes on assaults these days, we all know speed > armor. Is it wrong that this assault mech are able to effectively use LL, or the three PPCs it comes packed with from factory?
There is something fundamentaly wrong with the game in my opinion. MWO have allmost become a rock, paper, scissors 1. person shooter. Is this right? Should it be? In the name of balance?
PGI have not managed to make use of the roles each weight class have. There was no benifits of running lighter mechs, nor was there any limitations agains weight in a game. Running up against assault mechs, getting hammered as they should, ppl started crying about balance. With the result of, in the first round, making energy assault mechs usless for brawl/close combat. Whats next? They did the AC20 and Gaus nerf, but atleast those still work in a way.
Today I do, on avarage, more damage per round with my Raven, than I do with the awesome or stalker enegy builds. The raven is a scout and electronic warfare mech, not the new assault mech. The spider is even worse.
In my opinion the assault mechs should still be powerfull as hell, and grind trough everything in their way. PPL should choose other mechs because of other game mechanichs. Or the game should be balanced in some other way.

I disagree with this. It's not rock, paper, scissor - heavy and assault mechs are generally superior to light and medium mechs. The only advantage offered by light mechs is their ability to stand on squares faster. In a 1:1 fight, the big guys win every time, assuming both players are equally skilled.

It would be better if the game was rock, paper, scissor, because then there would be a good reason to pick light or medium mechs. Right now, there is no rational reason, people just do it for fun or because it fits their play style. Or because it's an advantage if you like standing on squares.

Alternatively, there should be some kind of mechanism (e.g. dropship weight limit) that prevents a team from picking 12 assaults mech, while still making assault mechs more powerful than heavy mechs. The only problem with this idea is that assault mechs will always be the more popular choice, while there is no good mechanic to decide who gets to play assault mechs. In other FPS games, you have to earn your equipment from game to game, and you lose it all when you die. So the guys with the best gear will be the ones who got a lot of kills in their last few games.

[FupDup]

Alistair Winter, on 22 September 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

I'm still waiting for single heat sink having a function in this game, such as having a low heat capacity and fast cooling compared to DHS. But that would have some unfortunate consequences such as 1) less grinding c-bills for every single mech you own and 2) DPS as a viable alternative to high alpha / burst damage.

We wouldn't want that.

Personally I think it would be a little bit more intuitive for DHS to be the fast-cooling-low-capacity and SHS to be the slow-cooling-high-capacity.

[Zyllos]

I think the Stalker is the definition of a bracketed fire mech.

Long Range:
Couple of LRM/10s with 1 or 2 Large Lasers

Short Range:
Couple of SRM/6s with 2 or 4 Medium Lasers

[The Boz]

Amsro, on 22 September 2013 - 05:14 AM, said:

Energy builds should be very heat efficient to be effective,

The most heat-effective energy build puts out less DPS and does it for a shorter amount of time than the same mech can put out with just 10 heat sinks and autocannons.

[Serpentbane]

I see a lot of sugestions here, but I have done a lot of builds on these mechs and they are lacking behind in every way, compared to mechs sporting balistics or lighter mechs running around you. I did not say I was unable to make a build work in some way. But they are never good enough. And should you suddenly find your self in a heated Battle, counting secounds between every selected shot just dont cut it. As I wrote, I deal more damage in my raven than I do With these two Assaults. The Assaults are named Assaults for a reason, and thats not because they were intended to hide.

[Avalios]

Mechs die too damn fast as it is. Nerfing weapons that are too strong is preferable to buffing everything else to the point we are playing a Call of Duty simulator. Game is more balanced then ever atm.

Pew Pew is fine
Dakka Dakka is fine
Boom Boom needs better hit detection

[The Boz]

Scissors, on 22 September 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Rock needs a nerf!
Paper is fine.

[Khobai]

The unfortunate reality is that the Stalker, by virtue of being able to boat energy weapons, will continue to ruin everything for other energy-based mechs. Because any balance decisions PGI makes that adversely affect the Stalker also adversely affect other mechs like the Awesome.

That's why PGI needs to add mech-specific quirks (i.e. the Awesome should be better at using large energy weapons than any other mech). Stalkers should be deadlier overall by boating many small weapons. But when it comes to boating large energy weapons no mech should outdo the Awesome.

[Serpentbane]

It Depends on what you want in a game like this. In my opinion Mech Warrior should not be about 100% Balance when it comes to head to head combat. What ever happend to roles? Different tasks for different mechs? I do see that these small none mission based maps do not open for things like this in a very big degrea. And I know most people usually just gun **** stright for the enemy. But PGI shoul rather try making ppl think tactics and strategy rather make this just another shooter.