33 replies to this topic

[Caleb Lee]

Seriously?? You've obviously not read any of the books. May I suggest you go purchase them as most can be read in ePub format.

In a nutshell, the Inner Sphere is led by different Houses, i.e. Davion, Steiner, Kurita etc... who are all vying for power and to increase their territory. Some are brilliant strategists like Hanse Davion who took a big chunk out of the Capellans, and formed a marriage with the Lyran side, whose kids inherited both kingdoms. Most of the time the territory has gone back and forth without a single House ever gaining significant power over the others.

Hence the war hasn't ended in hundreds of years...

Enter the Clans. The Crusaders are bent on conquering the Inner Sphere versus the Wardens for the most part feel they are there to protect it. The Crusaders are the one's who pushed for the invasion and some of the worst offenders were the Smoke Jaguars who nuked whole cities from space simply because they had the temerity to resist. Even in most of the Clans eyes they crossed the line. Clan Wolf, a Warden clan at the time, pushed the furthest because they couldn't stop the crusade they figured at least they could limit the damage as the first clan to reach Terra (Earth) would become the next Starlord basically.

Life under the Clans sucks as everything is poured into their military, picture the USSR before it collapsed. If you aren't part of the elite, i.e. grown in a vat, AND manage to earn a blood name (limited few), you have no real say. It's basically one large military structure with one goal in mind and constant warfare albeit their rules typically limit the engagement and loss somewhat. They have no real arts and science development outside military purposes, although some clans like Ghost Bear encourage their warriors to take up some art form. It's considered waste for the most part.

Oh, you get a limited life span as past the mid 30s most warriors go to Solahma units which are mostly suicide units where they simply hope to die in battle at least.

Is any form of government better than another? At least with the IS a lot of the population has some say and can enact fairly major changes by mass discontent, as evidenced by Victor losing his half of the nation to his Sister. Oh, did I mention she killed her mother and pinned the blame on him? Also made an attempt on her lover at the time. Picture a black widow, she's a real sweat heart....

Also, it wasn't Victor's sole decision to eradicate the Smoke Jaguar's ability to make war... notice they did NOT kill the entire clan as they left the civilians alone as much as possible. The whole Star League voted on the invasion and approved it as it was the only way to get the clans to stop.

TL:DR Long story short, it's complicated, read the books. They'll open your eyes and radically shift the idiotic viewpoint of the BT universe you now hold.

[ValdnadHartagga]

Marack Drock, on 23 September 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

Except the point that the I.S. still illradicated Wolverine without reason according to Katrina's decsicion.

Wolverines were Annihilated by the Clans (all of them!). If you mean the Smoked Jaguars, their destruction was deemed necessary in order to liberate the Inner Sphere worlds in their occupation zone.

Marack Drock, on 23 September 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

And the Reason I don't side I.S. is because the fact that they massacare eachother and also note the fact that i disown the Crusaders and I am a Clan Wolf (Most notably A WARDEN CLAN) and the fact that if you play the games 99 times out of 100 someone in the I.S. is killing eachother for the sole purpose of power where as u said it yourself wardens want to protect I.S.

The Warden factions do see themselves as the defenders of the Inner Sphere but that does not change their methods. Warden Warriors are still Clan Warriors, and Clans kill each other for power all the time. In fact, the only reason Clanners kill each other is over issues of power - that's the point of the entire Trial system.

Marack Drock, on 23 September 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

Also you forget that we nuked Japan because they opposed the U.S.A. and noone has any problem with that. That is the same reason the Jags did. It was a neccessary evil (not that i support it as i am against the jags descision in that manner).

The Jags melted Edo as retaliation for the jailbreak of Hohiro Kurita and to quell the yakuza guerilla campaign. It was not a stunt to force the government to surrender out of self-preservation (as the Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombings were). The Jags already controlled the planet and they had no idea they were holding Hohiro until he broke out. Turtle Bay was completely unnecessary.

Marack Drock, on 23 September 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

Victor had reason to kill his sistor (granted and accepted) he did not have rights to condome William Desari on Kentares IV to execute Eric and his loyalists who were the rightfull leaders.

Victor made it a pretty big point to take Katherine prisoner instead of kill her. And he had every right to condemn or condone anything that happened in the FedCom, being the First Prince and all (even taking into account his role as the First Prince of the Federated Suns rather than the greater Federated Commonwealth - his own people are killing each other, he needs to address that one way or another.)

Marack Drock, on 23 September 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

According B.T. after William was killed and Ian ascended the throne he was imediatly condomed a murderer and hunted down and imprisoned.

By his own people, as a result of Steiner propaganda which made him out to be a bad guy for both sides of the conflict. Victor had nothing to do with it. The mercs that went after him were on contract with House Steiner.

Marack Drock, on 23 September 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

The Inner Sphere is unjust as they only seek power over eachother and don't care who gets in the line of fire.

The Clans are no different. The endgame of a Warrior is to achieve maximum fame and glory, or at least a flattering legacy before being drummed out into the Solahma units. They may avoid civilian casualties but the Warrior caste will gleefully go at each other for any chance at advancement (and the less scrupulous of them won't care who gets in their way, either). There are many instances in the fiction of Warriors wounding and even killing their fellow Clansmen (even within their own units) in various Trials. Bondsmen get smacked around all the time. Clan Warrior culture is all about being top dog, no matter what philosophy your Clan follows. A Clanner will kill his best friend if necessary, and if demanded by honor.

Marack Drock, on 23 September 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

at least the Clans didn't slaughter eachother for 300 years for the soul purpose of dictaing eachother.

Yes they did! They totally did!

Edited by ValdnadHartagga, 23 September 2013 - 07:18 PM.

[ValdnadHartagga]

Marack Drock, on 23 September 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

Well guess what a Trial is not war.

Many Trials, especially on large scale (and especially if the defending party isn't playing ball), are conducted like war campaigns. In Roar of Honor, for instance, a single Trinary of Ghost Bears tied up a Cluster of Wolves for months by conducting a drawn-out affair in order to buy time for reinforcements, which wore down the invading Wolves' resources since they were not expecting to be fighting for so long. The Annihilation of the Wolverines was totally a war (which they were predetermined to lose). It's not all-out war, but that's how war is conducted by the Clans. Hell, the Invasion was technically one giant Trial of Possession fought out in numerous sub-Trials, and the whole thing came down to a single Trial of Possession (which turned out to be more or less all-out war).

Marack Drock, on 23 September 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

And as for Victor condoming stuff at his whim. Well that is the same as saying it is alright to kill someone cause the judge says its ok you murdered him. It is unjustified unless a punishment is done. And if Victor was a wee bit smarter why didn't he pay more attention to his people rather than his own vendetta against his sister who actually was just as intitled to a bit of power as he was (not that I support her).

The issue is that even in the 3060s, information and resources take time to travel. He wouldn't have known about the whole Dresari affair until days into it, and if he could send any help, that help would also have taken days, weeks, or even months to get there. Not to mention he was conducting an interstellar war at the time - what amounts to a petty local squabble is just a drop in the bucket. Further not to mention that the Inner Sphere has a grand history of political rivals backstabbing each other, especially on border planets like Kentares IV. So while tragic, it was more or less business as usual.

[Karl Streiger]

ValdnadHartagga, on 23 September 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

Yes they did! They totally did!

But they - weren't hardly as efficient (http://www.sarna.net.../Clan_Wolverine) - as the DCMS 300 years later annihilating the Nova Cats.
Not to mention the Steel Vipers in the War of the Reaving

[WildeKarde]

Wasn't just the Wolverines that the clans took out, Widowmaker was absorbed as well so no longer existed as an entity. Clans don't do all out conflict due to their culture being setup around minimising the loss of resources (which originally were scarce for them).

Smoke Jaguar were wiped out to prove the I.S. could match any of the clans and to bring home the horror of full conflict to the clans in their homeworlds.

You also have to look at clan coming to the IS side showing that the clan approach was not the correct one. Wolf's Dragoon being the earliest example but then the Wolves split under Phelan Kell to the IS side.

[CyclonerM]

After the end of the truce a renewed Crusade would have weakened even more the Inner Sphere and, trust me, no one in the IS was willing to be dominated by the Clans.

[Lord Ikka]

Smoke Jaguars were destroyed by the new Star League, during a Trial of Annihilation. The Star League used the Clans' own rules to shatter the most brutal of the Clans that invaded them.

Remember, the Truce only applied to the Clans crossing further into the IS, not IS forces attacking Clans- so there was no violation of the treaty. Since ilKhan Lincoln Osiris was planning on breaking the truce 7 years before it was supposed to end- only foiled by Clan Wolf/Jade Falcon using a 9 month delaying tactic, I don't think that the Second Star League was wrong in destroying his original Clan.

http://www.sarna.net...eration_Bulldog

It was a classical use of preemptive warfare- strike those who are planning on striking you first.

[Naglinator]

I've said it before, i'll say it again.... Star league was a hereditary monarchy broken down into virtual vassals. What is there to like? Unless you were a Cameron, or a marick, or any other nobility it's just another crappy civilization. Most likely would've been much more advanced if it was something more like our society. As for the clans, they may be a stagnant society, but at least they don't hide behind civilians during their wars. First and second succession wars here. I don't count the current I.S. society because they CANT resort to bombing civilians. They would if they could. Also, for anyone who mentions the the Jags... well they suck Sorry Smoke Jag, but they do.

-The Pug,
Clan Wolf

[Skylarr]

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Star League

Time period: 2570 – 2780
Classification: Coalition

The brainchild of Ian Cameron, the Star League was a self-policing interstellar council formed from the Terran Hegemony, the Great Houses of the Inner Sphere, and the Territorial States of the Periphery. Each of the States of the Star League was required to provide soldiers and war materiel for the mutual protection of the Star League Defense Force, but otherwise was allowed to maintain its own standing army, and even conduct (rare) small-scale wars. Though not completely stable, the relative peace, prosperity, and advanced technology of the Star League have led many to consider the Star League as the zenith of human civilization.

Founding

The first treaties of the Star League were penned by the Terran Hegemony, the Capellan Confederation, and the Free Worlds League in 2556. Following these initial treaties, the Lyran Commonwealth (2558), the Federated Suns (2567), and finally the Draconis Combine (2569) also signed. The Star League was officially born with the July 9, 2571 signing of the Star League Accords by Ian Cameron and the five house lords.

In one of his first acts, First Lord Ian Cameron appointed his wife, Shandra Noruff-Cameron as Chief of Staff and Commander-in-Chief of the yet unformed Star League Defense Forces. Dividing the SLDF up into six Military Regions, the capitals being Asta, Altair, Fomalhaut, Procyon, Sirius and Rigil Kentarus, each region stood between a Member State and Terra itself. Shandra assured each region would have few troops from a bordering Member State to prevent insurrection, and assigned loyal Hegemony divisions as the core of each region's command structure. The SLDF also maintained another 4 military command structures, one based on Terra, two reserve divisions, and an elite, rapid-response division known as the Star Guards.

Politics

High Council

The leader of the Star League was the First Lord, a hereditary position held by members of House Cameron from the League's inception to its downfall. The First Lord had formidable political, economic and military powers, even over the other Great Houses, though the Camerons rarely used these powers unilaterally. Their efforts to govern through compromise and consensus endeared them to the general public, which helped the First Lord in implementing policies, even those privately opposed by the other Lords.
The High Council was the primary governing body of the Star League, composed of the First Lord and the leaders of the six other Great Houses, known as the Council Lords. The Council met biannually to discuss and ratify the government's budget, summon witnesses to testify on an issue, hear petitions, and address other League concerns, but was restricted from discussing the governance of each others' realms. During a crisis an emergency meeting could be called, and for a matter of great importance a Council Directive, or Council Order, would be drafted and put to a vote, with a majority required for passage. The First Lord had the casting vote in the event of a tie. If a matter being discussed involved the Periphery, its Administrators could attend meetings and participate, but were not given the right to vote.

Each Council Lord was also allowed to bring advisers, known unofficially as High Council Members, to Council meetings, to assist or even tell the Lords how they should vote. These advisers were often dispatched on fact-finding missions, and used their prestige to gain wealth and become nobles. Advisers to the First Lord, officially known as the First Lord's Advisors, were members of the Terran Hegemony's High Council, and headed major departments within the Hegemony's government.

Council meetings were held in the capitol city of the Star League, the Court of the Star League. Known unofficially as Unity City, the Court of the Star League was built near Puget Sound, located on the North American continent of Terra. It was also the location of the Royal Court, which met for two months during the spring and winter Council meetings. Though not an official part of the High Council, the Royal Court was ostensibly a social gathering of nobles, intellectuals and celebrities, with the festivities led by the First Lord's spouse or Master of Protocol. It was often during these events that many backroom agreements were forged, such that the Royal Court gained a reputation for rampant political and economic dealing.

Nobility

Though titles of nobility were reinstated by Micheal Cameron, they served more as job titles within the Star League and Terran Hegemony, a distinction purposefully made by the Camerons to prevent the kind of class stratification found in other realms. Towards this end, nobles were never given permanent positions within a planet's government; instead they served at the whim of the public, which could vote them out of office.

Dukes and Duchesses were at the top of the hierarchy of nobles, and either owned the most land or controlled the most industry of a given planet. A variant of this were "Vagabond Dukes", owners of major interstellar conglomerates spread over many Hegemony worlds. The title of Marquess or Marquessa was granted to scientists for making a significant contribution to science. A Count or Countess was the owner of major companies or large tracts of land on a world, with their allegiance often (but not always) tied to the planet's Duke. The Baron and Baroness was the lowest rank of nobility, granted to owners of modest companies or farmlands, or as a reward for excellent service in the SLDF or BSLA. Some of the greatest political dramas were played out between a planet's Duke and their Counts and Barons jockeying for control of its government.

[Lord Ikka]

Naglinator, on 24 September 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

I've said it before, i'll say it again.... Star league was a hereditary monarchy broken down into virtual vassals. What is there to like? Unless you were a Cameron, or a marick, or any other nobility it's just another crappy civilization. Most likely would've been much more advanced if it was something more like our society. As for the clans, they may be a stagnant society, but at least they don't hide behind civilians during their wars. First and second succession wars here. I don't count the current I.S. society because they CANT resort to bombing civilians. They would if they could. Also, for anyone who mentions the the Jags... well they suck Sorry Smoke Jag, but they do.

-The Pug,
Clan Wolf

That's because the Clans really don't have civilians. They have support assets- techs, factory/farm workers, and other such "vassal" positions. If you're not a vat-bred "super" soldier, you are nothing more than an expendable second-class cog in their war machine.

[ValdnadHartagga]

Lord Ikka, on 25 September 2013 - 11:49 PM, said:

That's because the Clans really don't have civilians. They have support assets- techs, factory/farm workers, and other such "vassal" positions. If you're not a vat-bred "super" soldier, you are nothing more than an expendable second-class cog in their war machine.

Truth. They don't even always use money - if it's not in Kerenskies, it's work credit.

Edited by ValdnadHartagga, 26 September 2013 - 05:26 AM.

[Sadistic Savior]

Marack Drock, on 23 September 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

Hello all. Now I started this because me and my brother had a debate over the Clans and Star League and how they're government could be supirior to the I.S. My thoughts were: Because both the Clans and Star League Practiced the rights of people (Clans through Trials and Blood Rights) and the fact each Clan (same as each planet under Star League) were given rights according to the ilKhan and the discision of the Khans then that is supirior to the I.S. who's society is based on the fact most leaders of the I.S. were Mass murderers and dictators. From what I uncovered Victor Davion was just as bad as his sister when came to gaining control of the Commonwealth and then the mass genicide of Clan Jaguar (after the peace f Tukyaaid) and genicide of Wolverine has led me to believe the Clans are more righteous than the I.S. from the stand point that the Clans and Star League saught peace and unity over the control of the I.S.
I want to know what are peoples views on this subject.

There are no "good' Battletech governments. Just degrees of bad.

Feudal systems are the norm. The Star League was a feudal state. The Clans have a rather oppressive caste system, which is basically an oligarchy ruled by the warrior class. The remainder are all various flavors of non-democratic autocracies.

The closest thing to a democracy in Battletech is Rasalhague, and even they would probably not be considered a democracy in our sense of the word. The Free World's League would be the next closest.

Edited by Sadistic Savior, 30 September 2013 - 08:55 AM.

[Sadistic Savior]

Marack Drock, on 23 September 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

Except the point that the I.S. still illradicated Wolverine without reason according to Katrina's decsicion.

Clan Wolverine was annihilated by the other Clans long before first contact with the Inner Sphere. Remnants of that clan entered the inner sphere later on, but the Clan was already destroyed by then.

[Sadistic Savior]

Jake Hendricks, on 24 September 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

Wasn't just the Wolverines that the clans took out, Widowmaker was absorbed as well so no longer existed as an entity. Clans don't do all out conflict due to their culture being setup around minimising the loss of resources (which originally were scarce for them).

Wolverine was the only one annihilated...meaning there was no trace of them. Widowmaker bloodnames continue to exist in Clan Wolf, for example (Natasha Kerensky is directly descended from them), but there are no longer any Wolverine bloodnames. Their gene legacies were destroyed along with the Clan itself.

Annihilation is the ultimate death for a Clan. Abjuration and Absorbtion are far better fates.

Edited by Sadistic Savior, 30 September 2013 - 09:02 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Sadistic Savior, on 30 September 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

Clan Wolverine was annihilated by the other Clans long before first contact with the Inner Sphere. Remnants of that clan entered the inner sphere later on, but the Clan was already destroyed by then.

Remnants of that clan became the biggest thread for the clans - and only the holy stupidness and egoism of the inner spheres leadership - made it a thread for every one in the inner sphere - no matter on wich side of the barrel you were.

[Pht]

Marack Drock, on 23 September 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

Hello all. Now I started this because me and my brother had a debate over the Clans and Star League and how they're government could be supirior to the I.S. My thoughts were: Because both the Clans and Star League Practiced the rights of people (Clans through Trials and Blood Rights)

The clans do not treat human life as worthy of being given rights to protect it. People often make the mistake of thinking they do because ... i presume .... that they have mistaken the functional effect of the dislike of wasting resources as such.

Witness that their warriors usually get away with murdering lower-caste workers and the fact that non-warriors pretty much have no standing to even enter any of the trials. The clans are strict caste socities and they are all some form of socialistic governments - meaning they believe that people do not have the rights to the fruits of their (morally upright) labor.

This can be backed up from the current canonized sources on the lore.

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and the fact each Clan (same as each planet under Star League) were given rights according to the ilKhan and the discision of the Khans then that is supirior to the I.S. who's society is based on the fact most leaders of the I.S. were Mass murderers and dictators.

Not that I think any of the characters in the IS are morally upright - I'd say that your calling them all, as a single class, "mass murders" wrong.

The capellans could easily fit under that classification; at times the dracs could; the other major powers - no.

Yes, virtually ALL of the magistrates in the sphere are dictators.

The leadership of the clans are dictators as well; they simply use a different form of government to do it - socialistic caste oligarchies.

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From what I uncovered Victor Davion was just as bad as his sister when came to gaining control of the Commonwealth

VSD is not a moral giant but in no way was his coming to power anthing even remotely like how that female dog came to power. Not even VSD's involvement in starting the FS/LC civil war comes close to what that filthy pig in a pretty dress did and would continue to do.

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and then the mass genicide of Clan Jaguar (after the peace f Tukyaaid)

It wasn't a geoncide. They very specifically limited their destruction of CSJ to CSJ's military and those structures that only existed to support the military. In fact, the flotilla sent to the CSJ homeworld, when they obtained a large group of CSJ military POW's ... did not execute them after taking them into custody. They stranded them with supplies on a world on which they could support themselves instead of killing them.

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and genicide of Wolverine

Was carried out by the clans. Not the IS.

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has led me to believe the Clans are more righteous than the I.S. from the stand point that the Clans and Star League saught peace and unity over the control of the I.S.

The clans have not soughty peace and unity. They instead have converted war into a game and have decided life has no intrinsic infinite worth and thus have constantly warred amongst themselves and outsiders.

The first star league was brutally war like - read up on their wars against the periphery states that didn't aquiesce to their "right to rule" them.

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I want to know what are peoples views on this subject.

Really no faction in the BT lore is morally upright. It's just that some don't practice all the evils that the others do.

Edited by Pht, 01 October 2013 - 05:34 PM.

[Rowanas]

I haven't gotten to read everything posted here, but you guys are being a bit hard on the clans. You paint them as utterly utilitarian at best, and outright callous at worst. I would put forth the argument that they're simply survivalists, and with good rea son, too! The whole "no art, no culture" thing is a pile of steaming I.S. A lot of work goes into the military-industrial complex, i'll grant you that, but the freeborn, while second-class citizens, live good long lives, with music, art, non-military science and generally all very similar to the way we would expect any civilisation to live. They have an instinctive aggression and survivalism about them, but it's quite clear that not every Clanner considers everything but fighting a "waste".

Now, i'm not going to defend what we do here in the west, but the crusader clans are basically just doing what we do to developing nations. We go over there, kill the last despot and try to institute our systems over the top. The largely meritocratic society (as long as you're not mixing true/free borns) seems a lot nicer than the strict feudal system imposed in the Inner Sphere.

P.S. Pht, they distribute the wealth of the workers to ensure that everyone gets what they need. Socialism isn't evil, and is thus a terrible argument against the Clans.

Edited by Rowanas, 03 October 2013 - 10:21 AM.

[Atlas3060]

Rowanas, on 03 October 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

I haven't gotten to read everything posted here, but you guys are being a bit hard on the clans. You paint them as utterly utilitarian at best, and outright callous at worst.

But they are, so a few of these posters have been fairly accurate.
The Clan society is based on warfare or the support of the warrior caste in some way.
Sure we have the "strange" ones like the Diamond Sharks, who value merchantile efforts a bit more.
The thing is they can still back up their words by fighting and defending their position.

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I would put forth the argument that they're simply survivalists, and with good rea son, too! The whole "no art, no culture" thing is a pile of steaming I.S.

Their art and culture, whatever it may be, usually has a focus towards glorifying Clan ideals, standards, and war.
The Ghost Bears (my favorite Clan) have a great example of this. Each warrior undertakes a Great Work and continues working on it until their death. Afterwards it is performed or displayed in the warrior section of the city and typically the Great Work was based on warfare, which understandably is the focus of a warrior's life.

There's a sourcebook called The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky I fully recommend folks pick up because it gave the reader some interesting views on the Clan Empires.

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A lot of work goes into the military-industrial complex, i'll grant you that, but the freeborn, while second-class citizens, live good long lives, with music, art, non-military science and generally all very similar to the way we would expect any civilisation to live.

Depending on where you stand with the Clans and how important your position is.
A scientist in the Blood House chapels loses an arm, he might get a cybernetic replacement so he can complete his work.
A laborer loses an arm and he might get reshuffled to a physical job that allows him to still work with one arm.
They look at Terra and the Inner Sphere worlds and potential Edens because the Homeworlds were less than comfortable (also known as crapsack worlds).

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They have an instinctive aggression and survivalism about them, but it's quite clear that not every Clanner considers everything but fighting a "waste".

Unless it promotes the Clan's ability to support the warrior or wage war, it is a waste to them. We don't hear much about the poets, writers, dreamers, and innovators of the Clans in fiction because they aren't the focus in their society.
Don't get me wrong, if there's a kid who stands up and makes a wonderful poem about how their people are best and they need to bring light to the Inner Sphere, the kid would probably get a pat on the head.
The Warriors of Kerensky book brings up a great example of their culture: kid's cartoon shows. There's a Power Ranger/Sonic SATAM-ese cartoon where it clearly shows the superiority of the Clan totem animal heroes over the evil ape overlords which represent the House Lords.

*Laughs* I love the writers sometimes thanks to little touches like that for these books.

Marack Drock, on 03 October 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

Agreed with Rowanas. Frankly if the I.S. hadn't tried to end the star league then there wouldn't be any Clans and the golden years would last forever.

Riddle me this:
Amaris (the Rim Worlds Republic representative, Periphery power) just killed off the main Cameron family line. His house absolutely hated theirs.

The House Lords (Davion, Steiner, Marik, Liao, Kurita) have been given scraps of tech from the Hegemony (House Cameron's nation and de facto leader of the Star League). They have been forced to keep armies at a certain level and strength (even though they mothballed a lot).
In the past the have engaged in shadow wars with each other while still being members of the Star League.

So here's my question: After all that, the Star League will crumble soon because the Hegemony is going down the toliet, and these Houses can finally grab all that sweet tech to dominate their neighbor, and you expected them to play nice and keep the Star League going?

I've wished a lot to Santa during Christmas time in my lifetime, but wow that's one heck of a wish you just cooked up.

Edited by Atlas3060, 03 October 2013 - 10:49 AM.

[Atlas3060]

If we are to play the blame game right then it is all Terra's fault, and by that extension Humanity's own fault to ever explore the stars.

The Houses were created when folks wanted to leave Terra during its unified government called the Terran Alliance.
As people fled folks started forming their own Browncoats proto star empires. Eventually the Alliance gave way to the Hegemony because McKenna blew the ever loving frack out of an island and said "I'm in charge deal with it."

From there his cousin took the Hegemony to new heights and dreamed of a unified Humanity.
Those that resisted were either conned into it or subjugated into it (note that was the Periphery's fate).
Their delusion of all humankind bowing to one throne started the Star League, thus the tragic star of our death play.

I'll challenge your assumptions of the Houses by stating they do follow their own laws and do give people rights and liberties. The Federated Suns (my favorite House) has "The Six Liberties of the Federated Suns' Constitution" and they follow court law, not some ham fisted dictatorship where might makes right.

The Clans' idea of honor begins and ends with winner and loser. If I won my honor is intact, if I lose then I fall.
Clan Widowmaker was a great example of scheming and plotting when the Wolverines were alive. In Betrayal of Ideals Widowmaker schemed and helped create the downfall to the Wolverines. Ironically enough the Not Named Clan's tactics were the start of zell.

Wars being fought for over 250 years gaining nothing is rather stupid, I'll admit, and actual human history is full of moments where stupidity ruled. Clanners have been fighting each other since post-Klondike. Absorption, Annihilation, reavings, etc so they aren't any better than the Houses to be fair.

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Frankly if I didn't know that the Houses couldn't be in the same room without shooting eachother I'd say they planned to have people killed for entertainment.

Funny thing is in between the Succession Wars the Houses had fragile peace moments. Usually those were borked up by Comstar or one House thinking they got the upper hand on another.

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Even though the Clan culture is primarily Military based it works.

No it doesn't, not in the long term, not in the way of having an actual culture.
If they did then Tukayyid would be theirs.
If they did then Terra would be theirs.
But it isn't and not only did they fail there, but they even failed to help out their own Clan bretheren when the Smoke Jags got walloped. I'll admit that the Jags were way too proud at certain moments, but when your own neighbors wouldn't mind taking your stuff in a Trial of Possession as you are weakened; I can see why they acted as such.

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The I.S. leaders can get away with anything they want and never be taken to court because they have governments that are set around the fact that they are the Gods of the people and those who oppose them will die.

Have you read the House books? They are either free or really cheap on Battlecorps. There's been history of rulers standing up to their crimes, but also there's history to them running away or starting civil wars too. Point being if I were a non warrior I'd live in the Successor States. Heck, even as a warrior I'd live there because I wouldn't want to get kicked into a solhama unit at age 35.

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House Marik is also pretty descent as they do allow freedom of speech and have a Parlimentary Government and are not usually near as war like and murderous as there distant cousins.

*dies laughing*
Marik?! Seriously? The one place that has a Parliment and the closest thing to a space democracy, and you don't think they are aggressive?!
I take it the countless civil wars, fratricide, raids against the Lyran Commonwealth, and attacks on the Capellan Confederation are just their way of sending chocolates and candies huh?

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It comes down to : Do they have a code of Honor and do they obey their own laws as much as possible.

House versus Clan, Houses win this argument.
Clanner 'honor' and laws works like this: I beat you up, I make the rules now.

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Clans (except for Jaguar and Wolverine) at least have Honor and respect it.

Except for when the Wars of Reaving occur because the Homeworld Clans get super xenophobic, then the Society start trying to take down warriors, the Wolves have to lie about the supposed destruction of the Kerenksy bloodline, and when the Jade Falcon's brilliant approach to stopping treachery is to kill off their Science caste (taking innocent scientists with them too) all because one guy (Balzak) was the "face" of the Society.

Yeah great honor there....shooting yourself in the Balzaks and making your entire clan more dumb.

[Atlas3060]

Marack Drock, on 03 October 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

Tell me this Atlas. If I.S. leaders would be tryed for drimes then: Why didn't Victor and the New Starleague get punished for breaking the treaty in 3062 after Tukyaaid. No matter what his intensions he still commited a crime and was never put up to trial for it.

Because when you have all Houses working together to form a new Star League, challenge the Clans to a Trial and they accept and the Clans lose. Then according to Clan Law, the new Star League Defense Force is right. To the Inner Sphere courts it was legal because the Houses came together and formed this new League. The Wolves were the only Clan to win their fight, so by right they can push for Terra. This was noted in the novels.

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Also on Carvor 5 Coloniel Reynolds murdered defenseless civillians and POWs even though Stiener controlled the planet. After your merc unit kills him he is commended by the archon and is burried with honor for murder. Killing Civillians without reason ina warden Clan is dishonorable.

And G. Braver in MW 1 his hole family his murdered and he is outlawed. But the buys who did it never were held up on charges ever not even after Braver got the trown back.

Then William Dresari after killing his uncle and his cousins was killed. He was commended by the Archon. Oh and I was reading on Sarna and Victor had a few lances of mechs in the area at the time but his personal vendettas are I guess more important than the people.

Video game events aren't typically canon, I haven't played them all and if I have my memory will be hazy. Still if you want my take on it:

You killed him, justice is served, you were the good guy.
The Archon, was it Katherine at the time?, probably covered it up because of the civil war going on. In the big scheme of things keeping your rear on the throne is more important than worrying about Carver 5. Now was it right? Personally i say "no" and would have pointed an ER PPC straight at him and pulled the trigger with no remorse.

Killing a civilian in a Clan, regardless of Warden or Crusader, is irrelevant in this discussion because Carver 5 was in the Chaos March. Now let's suppose some warrior did kill a civvie in Clan space for the sake of showing how harsh Clan society is. Clearly the lower caste person challenged a warrior. This will not do and was against Clan caste law, that thing which says "Warriors are best evah", as such the lower caste member was taught a lesson.

Now if he was a prominent lower caste member, like a caste leader, then maybe a slight trial with an ombudsmen (seriously get that Warriors of Kerensky book, it talks about cool stuff like this) could represent the side of the lower caste member.

The warrior would defend himself in court and chances are would be acquitted unless you had overwhelming evidence saying otherwise. Even so, hey there's that Trial of Refusal! He could invoke such a think as an appeal and fight his way to innocence. Isn't that example neat? No real court of law, no due process, just sock'em boppers your way to acquittal!

Never played MW1 completely and I really should to be honest.

Bring up Dresari, I'll bring up Fed Com Civil War. If you supported to Archon and kicked puppies and people into power, then that means Katherine now has a supporter in power. Of course she's going to be nice to you.

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Politicians can get away with crime their easy as pie. Their lives revolve around the fact that they think they own everything. Wardens feel it is their right to protect the Inner Sphere (I am a Warden not Crusader like Jade Falcon). Crusaders are not near as honorable as the Wardens as they want to conquer not protect.

Except for when Ulric Kerensky, a known Warden, rigged voting via politico moments to gain the upper hand against the Crusaders and deny them their "right" to take Terra lightning fast.

I consider myself a Warden Bear and the RasDom is the best compromise of Clan and Inner Sphere I've seen. Too bad that's way in the Republic and Dark Age era, but such is fictional life I suppose.

Fact is the Warden philosophy, as much as I do love it remember, was weak in Clan eyes.
We were there to protect the Inner Sphere from an outside threat. So basically you mean other Clanners? Then why even try to run with the Crusaders during the Invasion? Oh wait its to slow them down huh? Well politicking at its best I think huh?

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And the beat you up i make the rules now thing. Ummm isn't that how it works in the Inner Sphere except the fact that it usually ends up with 6 faction and every Merc unit trying to massacare eachother?

Well for a game named Battletech I'd hope there would be darn battling in it.

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At least the Clans are able to scale down their wars to small trials. Something the Inner Sphere havn't grasped as life is meaningless there.

Scaled down because they had too few resources and their God-King Kerensky was brain fevered into thinking skirmish fighting is the way to go against cultures that fight long term wars.

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At least if a Clan Warrior had a honorable life he was valued commended for good things such as valor and courage. In the Inner Sphere it is every man for himself if you side with the Great Houses.

I disagree. Honorable life to the Clans just means "how many people can I beat up in a dude/bro fashion?"
As for your disdain for the Inner Sphere warriors, need I remind you that the Great Father, Aleksander Kerensky, was from the Sphere? Personally I find the idea of arguing all this humorus and I do applaud the back and forth we are having.

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Every one of your arguements Atlas involved Crusader Clans who are and I admit the same as the Inner Sphere. The Wardens are not the Crusaders and never will be!!!!

And also in the Inner Sphere to friendly fire is almost as common as enemy fire.

Okay let's talk Warden problems:

Clan Coyote, basically the home of the Society in terms of influence: Warden. The Society used genetic experiments, drug induced barely functional warriors to fight the Warrior caste in the Wars of Reaving. Want to talk about how life is cheap? Those guys took it to a new level. Its a great read and I encourage folks to pick it up.

Clan Steel Viper, a mix of Crusader and Warden but usually on the Warden side of the fence. IlKhan Brett Andrews decides to kick off the Wars of Reaving. We are talking nukes, bio chemical warfare, and basically reducing the Homeworlds to barely habitable levels. All to remove the "Inner Sphere infection". Super xenophobia casebook study there.

So far that "..and never will be!!!!" part isn't looking too good.

Clan Snow Raven, if you ever wanted a Machievellan clan who played the politico game look no further. Oh wait, it was founded by a McKenna...imagine my dull shock.

Now in just Clan related matters:
During the Trial to eliminate the Wolverines nukes were used, in fact in the story I talked about earlier it looks like the Widowmakers might have framed them. Note please the Widowmaker was neither Warden nor Crusader because they were absorbed before that little pony show.

All my cases prove one thing: The Clans are not misguided. They are not more noble than the Inner Sphere Houses. Though they do have a spartan lifestyle and the civilians do not live better than their Inner Sphere bretheren. Those absorbed by the Clans 3050+ are exempt because they lived in the Sphere before Clan flags started flying over their home planet (insert Somerset strikers soundbite here).

Clan Cloud Cobra seems to be a decent Clan though. I'll give them props.