55 replies to this topic

[Tannhauser Gate]

Im pretty sure " jump right in and throw the Clans in to generate interest and short-term money" is looong way off. The clans are still in phase 1 aka planning stages.

Im not sure what past youre talking about. If the MWO development past is any indication, the devs will add clans in successive layers of beta content. They let the players rag each addition to get feedback and metrics, then balance them a few times, then add a new layer and so on. "Throwing in the Clans" just wont happen.

Also, I dont think the devs are thinking of the same "Clans" you are. MWO Clans will not be the OP force in the lore. They will be balanced with the IS. My guess is that they will allow clan pilots extra pilot and mech modules to give them better combat abilities and customization that IS pilots but all these will require earning and expending points. Omnimechs will likely have hardpoints that arent simply anything goes but more limited-omni making the mechs more multirole. I can guarantee you that boating will be limited. Clan tech will also be very expensive since no factory in the IS makes it (yet).

My guess is that they will roll out CW with Mercs coming first, then loyalists and loners. Then pgi will have all the bounty, contract, and war front content. Once all that is in.. and only then.. we will see the clans. Why? The Clan arrival is a chance to relaunch the game all over again.

[Shagohad]

I'm seeing a lot of pessimism and negativity here. The game is still growing and we've seen a lot of changes in the time we've been playing. October 15th will be the day that defines my MWO career. When those mechs deliver, I know that the clans will be here when they say they are.

And people say clans are in the planning phases. Where's your facts? Are you referring to the mechs or the CW in general? Mechs are easy for them to make. We get about two a month if you count premiums.

Edited by Shagohad, 11 October 2013 - 03:36 PM.

[CyclonerM]

Shagohad, on 11 October 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

And people say clans are in the planning phases. Where's your facts? Are you referring to the mechs or the CW in general? Mechs are easy for them to make. We get about two a month if you count premiums.

They have to plan about balancing Clan Omni-mechs and their weapons , engines and DHS, not just 'Mechs. Clans will be critical for the future of the game and they have to think about them carefully.
Besides, there is no point in releasing Clans before CW is finished.

[101011]

LakeDaemon, on 11 October 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

Also, I don't think the devs are thinking of the same "Clans" you are. MWO Clans will not be the OP force in the lore. They will be balanced with the IS. My guess is that they will allow clan pilots extra pilot and mech modules to give them better combat abilities and customization that IS pilots but all these will require earning and expending points. Omnimechs will likely have hardpoints that aren't simply anything goes but more limited-Omni making the mechs more multirole. I can guarantee you that boating will be limited. Clan tech will also be very expensive since no factory in the IS makes it (yet).

I sincerely hope not. Clan tech should be expensive, yes, but that's because it kicks Spheroids around the block like a tin can! I can't see anyone justifying even higher 'Mech prices just because you get more modules (which are pretty useless anyways). Could you explain this: "Omnimechs will likely have hardpoints that aren't simply anything goes but more limited-Omni making the mechs more multirole"? The way I see it, IS 'Mechs already have incredibly versatile hardpoints, and the only way to make them any more versatile is to remove the hardpoint types (e.g., make them Omni). How would you make them more versatile and yet also remove the one perk to an Omnimech, that is, their easily switched out weapons? Omnimechs are already balanced, no engine swaps, no structure changes, nothing.

[Tannhauser Gate]

We can only speculate how pgi will implement the Clans. Bryan did say that they were going to make Clan pilots part of the change and that can only mean pilot module upgrades. Russ also said that clan mechs, by Jordan's own admission, were not meant to be "omni" how they turned out but the game platform at the time required programming them simplistically and that their biggest regret for the whole BT franchise was creating the clans in a way that obsolesced all other tech. Bryan and Russ have already said they intend to not repeat this mistake that was repeated across all the other games. So yeah, your guess is as good as mine. I predict though that hard points / Omni slots will be changed in some way and I predict that pilot modules and mech modules will be different so that a player can grind up to "Clan" level superiority. Having it handed to you would kill the game balance just as it as in past titles.

Edited by LakeDaemon, 13 October 2013 - 12:36 PM.

[101011]

In the end, Jordan's statement that they shouldn't have been Omni is irrelevant, because they are Omni, and you can't change that. I will be sorely disappointed if PGI goes ahead and goes against the rulebooks and past MW games just because the creator looked back and said, 'Huh, I guess that wasn't the greatest idea'. Personally, I believe that there will be an option to either join an IS faction and a Clan faction, and each faction would have separate 'Mechs (e.g., Clan 'Mechs don't go to the IS MechWarrior) obviously. However, based off of the whole honor thing the Clans have going on, you can't purchase new 'Mechs; instead, you have to grind up a line using some kind of honor point thing (awarded for obeying zellbrigen, winning battles, etc.). Of course, you don't have to start them out with Omni tech; the Clans have plenty of rear-line standard 'Mechs just waiting to be used. The IIC's are a good example.

[Tannhauser Gate]

Could be. But that would create a situation that pgi has explicitly said they wound not do - that is, give the players an option to use vastly better tech over lesser "standard" tech which would of course see a vast portion of the player base chose the biggest guns making all previous content obsolete. Don't get me wrong, Im very pro BT lore for any MW game but I also think proud clanners will have to reajdust their expectations for MWO. The tech will just not be as op as it was in past games and definitely not as op as it was in the lore. As you said, using CW to choose Clan affiliation is very possible as a mechanic since it seems that will be how the rest of the players will be choosing affiliation. Mech prices and tech availability will also be according to affiliation. We will see.

Edited by LakeDaemon, 13 October 2013 - 01:25 PM.

[CyclonerM]

LakeDaemon, on 13 October 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

Could be. But that would create a situation that pgi has explicitly said they wound not do - that is, give the players an option to use vastly better tech over lesser "standard" tech which would of course see a vast portion of the player base chose the biggest guns making all previous content obsolete. Don't get me wrong, Im very pro BT lore for any MW game but I also think proud clanners will have to reajdust their expectations for MWO. The tech will just not be as op as it was in past games and definitely not as op as it was in the lore. As you said, using CW to choose Clan affiliation is very possible as a mechanic since it seems that will be how the rest of the players will be choosing affiliation. Mech prices and tech availability will also be according to affiliation. We will see.

This had been said at least a thousand of times, but.. THERE IS a way to perfectly balance Clan Tech. That's what they did for the tabletop and in the lore.. Zellbrigen!
But they condamned themselves with a F2P model (even if they were forced to adopt it) so this kind of gameplay limitations will NEVER be possible.

You know what i think? In MW, the best things are always fan-made. From Zellbrigen battles to Clan Trials, to leagues & tournaments, to MW:LL. They should just give us the tools to make all this awesome stuff and then leave it to us. Too bad a free to play needs constant cash flow from casual players..

Edited by CyclonerM, 14 October 2013 - 08:33 AM.

[Gralzeim]

Zellbrigen only balances Clan vs. Clan. The moment a second IS mech fires at the Clan mech that declared a duel between himself and the first IS mech, the Clan mechs no longer have any obligation to follow those rules (The Clans aren't that crazy). Clan player wants to yell out a challenge to one of my teammates? That's fine, I'll wait till he's distracted and his back is turned before opening up on him. It would be really boring to have to wait turns for each Clanner to 1v1 each IS player.

It's just not going to be possible to keep Clan mechs balanced with IS mechs while keeping everything from the tabletop and/or lore (especially the lore, that stuff's insane). I'm sincerely hoping PGI does whatever's necessary, balance in a game like this is more important than rigidly adhering to a tabletop game that MWO is only based on.

That and I hope they never go back to 1:1 timeline, that just constrains them and prevents them from using some of the cooler things in the game. It sounded cool, but it would mean we'd have to wait upwards of 4-5 real years for some things. IS Omnis, IS techs that compete with Clan techs mostly-evenly, etc.

I'm really really hoping that Clan tech and mechs won't be this "two players of equal skill level, one has IS techs and an IS mech, other has Clan Omnimech and Clan tech, Clan player has advantage" thing, though that seems to be the likely outcome.

Edited by Gralzeim, 14 October 2013 - 09:12 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Gralzeim, on 14 October 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

Zellbrigen only balances Clan vs. Clan. The moment a second IS mech fires at the Clan mech that declared a duel between himself and the first IS mech, the Clan mechs no longer have any obligation to follow those rules (The Clans aren't that crazy). Clan player wants to yell out a challenge to one of my teammates? That's fine, I'll wait till he's distracted and his back is turned before opening up on him. It would be really boring to have to wait turns for each Clanner to 1v1 each IS player.

It's just not going to be possible to keep Clan mechs balanced with IS mechs while keeping everything from the tabletop and/or lore (especially the lore, that stuff's insane). I'm sincerely hoping PGI does whatever's necessary, balance in a game like this is more important than rigidly adhering to a tabletop game that MWO is only based on.

That and I hope they never go back to 1:1 timeline, that just constrains them and prevents them from using some of the cooler things in the game. It sounded cool, but it would mean we'd have to wait upwards of 4-5 real years for some things. IS Omnis, IS techs that compete with Clan techs mostly-evenly, etc.

I'm really really hoping that Clan tech and mechs won't be this "two players of equal skill level, one has IS techs and an IS mech, other has Clan Omnimech and Clan tech, Clan player has advantage" thing, though that seems to be the likely outcome.

Right, this is why i say it would never work in a game like this (maybe in MW4 or MW:LL might have worked.. ).

Balance is important, but this is a MechWarrior game, and is (or at least should be ) based on Battletech,its lore, its history (50+ novels) and its timeline. If you don't like it, then go play Hawken. You have a choice But then don't complain that game is not deep enough and too much CoD style

PGI already said the Clans will not be OP like they were in the lore. So don't worry about it.

[Tannhauser Gate]

CyclonerM, on 14 October 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

This had been said at least a thousand of times, but.. THERE IS a way to perfectly balance Clan Tech. That's what they did for the tabletop and in the lore.. Zellbrigen!
But they condamned themselves with a F2P model (even if they were forced to adopt it) so this kind of gameplay limitations will NEVER be possible.

You know what i think? In MW, the best things are always fan-made. From Zellbrigen battles to Clan Trials, to leagues & tournaments, to MW:LL. They should just give us the tools to make all this awesome stuff and then leave it to us. Too bad a free to play needs constant cash flow from casual players..

Zellbrigen could be implemented as a system for players with clan affiliations but forcing player to bid in batchall or observe honor on the field would be impossible to impose nor would I recommend that pgi even try it. Now, could the system be attractive only to clanner pilots? Yes. Could said system set that stage for players to observe Zell? Yes. Would players actually do it? Yes I think clan players would use Zell and rp as clanners if they were given an insulated meta game environment where that kind of behavior was encouraged. If anyone has a chance of pulling that off it would be pgi -if- they fulfill their pledge to steep MWO in the lore and create a immersive environment for all the players according to role. If clanners are given the same consideration as Mercs are planned to, then it should be good. As far as all the op tech, I expect it will be radically different.

Edited by LakeDaemon, 14 October 2013 - 12:00 PM.

[Jakob Knight]

CyclonerM, on 14 October 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

PGI already said the Clans will not be OP like they were in the lore. So don't worry about it.

And, of course, they have proven themselves capable warriors at making their statements come true, quineg? From the face you are making, I assume you know this.

[Bad Andy]

perhaps im not a founder but I don't give a **** about the 1:1 timeline

release content when it's finished. This game has a small dev team, I can be patient.

[CyclonerM]

Jakob Knight, on 15 October 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

And, of course, they have proven themselves capable warriors at making their statements come true, quineg? From the face you are making, I assume you know this.

Neg. I know this but i honestly used that face because it seems they will do something bad with Clans. Nerf will be the word! PGI can balance things almost only tweaking numbers. In MW:LL we have nice mechanichs for TAG, for example..

[mouser42]

Truth is we are free born ever one of us not one test tube baby here. When some fool turns their back on you what do you do? YOU BLAST THEM!!! and smile:) go ahead and duel with my team mates in your Omni mech but only a fool turns their back on my spider:)

[TibsVT]

mouser42, on 18 October 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

Truth is we are free born ever one of us not one test tube baby here. When some fool turns their back on you what do you do? YOU BLAST THEM!!! and smile:) go ahead and duel with my team mates in your Omni mech but only a fool turns their back on my spider:)

The Omni's aren't as cumbersome as the IS tin cans we're forced to use at present. I don't think you'll find them such easy prey. That and if you were to interfere another pilot has the right to engage you so long whomever you shot in the back hasn't first.

Balancing Clan tech won't be too hard, I've made many posts in the past about how it will work in a simple matter. Even if it is overpowered on paper I don't doubt there will be something else that will cause dramas. I know the subject of heat was always an issue on the forefront of these discussions and with the heat penalties now ingame that could cause people a lot of grief.

How many people have you seen cook their Mechs on the snow maps.. After all, an overheated Omni is just as much of a sitting target as an overheated IS Mech.

I'd also wager the pod space will be much more restricted then people think. Although we'll have more versatility in what we can put in the pod space, I don't think people will just be able to throw as many weapons into the Omni's as we can squeeze into the IS Mechs at current. Currently we're only restricted by physical space and weight. Pod space on the other hand is restricted by set tonnage. I made a lengthy post on this somewhere, I'll have to dig it up when I have more time.

EDIT: I found my post.

KelesK, on 18 June 2013 - 02:12 AM, said:

The thing you fail to realise short of those only saving you one and two critical slots respectively is that Omni's, unlike regular Mechs don't rely on tonnage and critical space. They rely on Pod space.

The Mad Dog C variant is the best example of this, it trades 26 tonnes of LRM's and lasers (Prime) for a mere 12 tonnes of two Gauss rifles. The variant effectively removes the arm pods and the shoulder pods. I personally wouldn't do that but others would. Effectively you're wasting, after ammo (4 tonnes) is taken into account, 12 tonnes of your pod space. Bear in mind, neither of these setups have heatsinks placed in pod space.

You can't just keep shoving stuff on an Omni and think it's going to work. It doesn't. It has X tonnes of allocated pod space. Pod space which you put your weapons in. Now while I have no idea exactly how heavy a clan 300 XL is for this example but as the Mad Dog is a 60 tonne Omni, if you get rid of it's pod space you're only left with 32 tonnes of free space in which you need to fit an XL engine, heat sinks and armour. That's not a lot of room to play with when you start taking critical space into account either.

People need to learn that Omni's aren't BattleMechs, you can't just duct tape equipment on them like a battlemech and expect it to work, it doesn't work that way.

The Timber Wolf, the one Omnis that everyone is so afraid someone will end up 'taping' Clan ER PPCs to only has 27.5 tonnes of pod space. Now while I have no idea how pod space will effectivly work, if you notice the larger weapons, PPCs, Gauss Rifles, generally take up whole pods which can usually be split between the regular lasers (Small, Medium, Large), and as I showed above, depending on the Omni, can require the entire disassembly of other pods to fit. Even the Assaults can only manage two ER PPC's per arm (not to say the Dire Wolf probably couldn't fit a third in both but the sacrifice would be substancial).

Basically the heavier the weapons you fill those pods with, the bigger your disadvantage especially depending on the Omni you actually pick as all of them vary depending on pod allowances. You pick heavy weapons, you risk not only overheating but ending up with less fire power then someone who split their weapons into smaller, more heat efficient groups much alike those ******** PPC Stalkers you see that manage to cook themselves on the ice maps.

We all get a little embarrassed when we see them. Now imagine you did it in a Clan Omni... People just seem to overlook the most basic of ideas when they point out their 'inbalance' arguement. If you are complaining about Clan tech being too overpowered, then you are clearly not here for any of the right reasons. We chose to play the Clans because we will be at a disadvantage in both numbers and, technically, technology. Sure, it's lighter, takes up less space, does more damage even. But what we sacrifice for those benefits more then makes up for what we gain. We all know the first person who jumps in a Clan Mech thinking he is some kind of diety is going to walk into an Atlas, cook the damn thing and end up making us all look like idiots.

Stepping away from the Mechs themselves I did notice a rather exensive post above about being hurt for not following the Clan's individualistic mannerisms much alike we are hurt for friendly kills at present. This could also be added on top of the Omni mech's already extensive list of fallbacks.

Edited by KelesK, 26 October 2013 - 07:24 AM.