28 replies to this topic

[SkyCake]

Now that we have some semblance of weapon balance in the game i feel like we can now talk about the strength of weapons in general versus mech survivability. I think a lot of people would agree that mechs seem to be dying a bit too fast... I think a lot of people would also agree that CT coring happens way too often, is a easy/one demensional/boring way for the game to play out as well. There is rarely any reason to aim for legs/arms even head, as it keeps the CT alive one or two more shots when you hit the head...

therefore i suggest that buffing torso armour points should be a fine remedy to this situation..

say +75% CT and +25% R/LT

with the buffs it may then be better to try and leg a mech or disarm it because the alternative is that mech will kill you before you are able to core it through the CT... also, dps weapons and splash weapons would see a buff because it would be harder for pinpoint weapons to core a mech, allowing the raw dps weapons time to overcome the disadvantage and shine... also you wouldn't have to torso twist away as often which is a big concern for DPS weapons...

[stjobe]

Pin-point alpha convergence.

That's the root of the issue, and until PGI deigns to address that issue this game will always be a CT-core fest.

[Charons Little Helper]

I still say that a pretty basic math formula would fix this. Just make it so that each mech part which is still armored absorbs 10% of the shot.

This would make it more advantageous than currently to go for arms as they only have 2 touching parts (front and back torso of whichever side the arm is on) . Center torso on the other hand has 5 (back center/left torso/right torso/both legs) - head would be exempt. So an early hit on the center torso would have 50% of its damage spread - on the arm only 20%. As nearby parts get cored - less damage gets spread out.

Maybe 10% would be a bit too much - change to 8% or some such - but I think 10% would be a good starting point.

[Khobai]

instead of buffing torso armor, they should increase torso internal structure.

[stjobe]

Khobai, on 24 September 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

instead of buffing torso armor, they should increase torso internal structure.

Instead of doing any of that, they should (re)introduce proper convergence.

I still wonder what that "Pin-point" 3,000 XP Pilot Skill is there for - it reduces the instant convergence speed by 15%...

Edited by stjobe, 24 September 2013 - 01:17 PM.

[MechaBattler]

Would prefer buffing internal structure hit points. I like the idea of picking off components as I go. Or conversely getting shot piece by piece.

[Zyllos]

As others have stated, pin point convergence is the culprit here.

As long as multiple weapons of different types and locations all hit a single point, this game will always be in balancing hell.

There has been about 101 detailed suggestions on fixing the problem but PGI think it's "dangerous" to not let players place 100% of all shots exactly where they want.

The problem is that PGI has forgotten that MWO uses the exact same Armor System from CBT that assumes all weapon's damage is based on a 2d6 roll with modifiers.

There are also some minor issues regarding hardpoint and weapon balance across mechs along with an incorrectly scaled heat system with the current RoF of weapons.

These are my largest complains about this game and is keeping me from pouring more time into the game:

• Pin Point Convergence
  
• Heat System
  
• Hardpoint System

[East Indy]

I hate getting cored as much as the next guy, but the second torsos become more durable, players will resort to obsessively legging.

[stjobe]

Every point of armour you add to a 'mech is a point of damage you take away from a weapon.

Think about it.

Aren't our weapons anaemic enough already?

[Ahja]

NO! They have already UNBALANCED weapons and now you want them to start on armor?

1) Do not touch armor stats.
2) Return weapons to and other systems to BT/MW standards.

And as for you poster move more maybe you will not just get hit in the same spot.

[Xanquil]

stjobe, on 24 September 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

Pin-point alpha convergence.

That's the root of the issue, and until PGI deigns to address that issue this game will always be a CT-core fest.

Zyllos, on 24 September 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

As others have stated, pin point convergence is the culprit here.

As long as multiple weapons of different types and locations all hit a single point, this game will always be in balancing hell.

There has been about 101 detailed suggestions on fixing the problem but PGI think it's "dangerous" to not let players place 100% of all shots exactly where they want.

The problem is that PGI has forgotten that MWO uses the exact same Armor System from CBT that assumes all weapon's damage is based on a 2d6 roll with modifiers.

There are also some minor issues regarding hardpoint and weapon balance across mechs along with an incorrectly scaled heat system with the current RoF of weapons.

These are my largest complains about this game and is keeping me from pouring more time into the game:

• Pin Point Convergence
  
• Heat System
  
• Hardpoint System

100% true. If PGI just treated an Alpha strike (ie a multi-weapon attack) like all the other multi-projectile attacks(ie make it scatter) it would go a long way to solving the high pinpoint alpha issues we have now. It may even make it so ghost heat goes away, but that would also require some sort of safeguard verses a macro workaround.( like a .5sec enforced global cool down on all shots)

[SkyCake]

pin point is never going away. never. . their game/network engine can't handle it. .PGI had stayed this over and over. .. so we might as well try to address the issue by manipulating current in game systems as well as coming up with new ones. .. That's why gauss got desync and goat heat was implemented. .. They are work around solutions to the convergence issue. .. I believe however that we also require a torso durability buff to help out as well. .. so stop worrying about convergence please. ..

[Rhent]

ROFLMAO at the OP. Its called cover. Use it. Don't crest over the hill and get hit by 12 mechs at once and die in 5 seconds. Don't run a light mech and go behind enemy lines immediately to play the "chase the jenner" game and not expect to take heavy damage or to get a light hunter mech attached to your backside.

Ranged sniping was nerfed to kingdom come with the removal of blue vision. You can now run at 1200, beyond sensor range in the dark background and be effectively cloaked from sniping. And even then, only Gauss and AC/2 could really do any appreciable damage at that range.

Massed energy weapons were nerfed via ghost heat to make it where at the 500M+ range, you are only going to be feeling 20 damage to your torso in one spot unless the shooter is using macros to get around the *cute* gauss nerf so you would be 35 pin point.

SSRM's were nerfed to kingdom come to make hitting the torso about as likely as hitting any other part of the mech.

[SkyCake]

legs are harder to hit than torsos and are often covered by intervening terrain, I can't see legging becoming a big problem. .. The only thing that will happen is that you will now have an interesting choice to make between trying to wear down the torso sections or crippling/disarming your opponent. .. right now ct is the obvious and only correct choice when facing anything but lights

[General Taskeen]

CT coring happens mainly due to the not so well thought hitbox design. When you "twist" your CT can actually be destroyed by hitting the "bawls" of the Mech. It also occurs to the hitbox being hit from the side (on select Mechs). So that's already two strikes against the hitbox design - both of which make twisting your Mech irrelevant.

Edited by General Taskeen, 24 September 2013 - 04:02 PM.

[PEEFsmash]

GIVE HIGHLANDER 80 MORE CT ARMOR, ASSAULTS ARE UNDERPOWERED YEP EVERYONE KNOWS IT CUZ YEAH LIKE I PLAYED SOME GAMES AND YEP ITS TRUE LIKE THEY DIE TOO EASY TO SPIDERS

Edited by PEEFsmash, 24 September 2013 - 04:53 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Instead of doing any of that, they should (re)introduce proper convergence.

Which would be great if they already didnt say they werent ever going to fix convergence... the best we can hope for is an internal structure increase.

Quote

GIVE HIGHLANDER 80 MORE CT ARMOR, ASSAULTS ARE UNDERPOWERED YEP EVERYONE KNOWS IT CUZ YEAH LIKE I PLAYED SOME GAMES AND YEP ITS TRUE LIKE THEY DIE TOO EASY TO SPIDERS

Sounds about right to me. Assaults should be able to "assault" and currently they cant because they die in less than 10 seconds when being focus fired by 2+ mechs. Every weight class should have a role... and the role of Assaults should be tanking, something lights currently do better, which is ridiculous.

Also if PGI is imposing tonnage limits then I see no problem with assaults being the strongest weight class, if theyre being penalized the most by tonnage limits, then they absolutely should be better than every other weight class. So im all for increasing torso internal structure.

Edited by Khobai, 24 September 2013 - 05:06 PM.

[PEEFsmash]

Khobai, on 24 September 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

Which would be great if they already didnt say they werent ever going to fix convergence... the best we can hope for is an internal structure increase.



Sounds about right to me. Assaults should be able to "assault" and currently they cant because they die in less than 10 seconds when being focus fired by 2+ mechs. Every weight class should have a role... and the role of Assaults should be tanking, something lights currently do better, which is ridiculous.

Also if PGI is imposing tonnage limits then I see no problem with assaults being the strongest weight class, if theyre being penalized the most by tonnage limits, then they absolutely should be better than every other weight class. So im all for increasing torso internal structure.

I learned something about you based upon what you just said. I'm just going to leave it in this little note right here.

Spoiler

You have never played against a good player in your life.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 24 September 2013 - 05:10 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 24 September 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

...
Also if PGI is imposing tonnage limits then I see no problem with assaults being the strongest weight class, if theyre being penalized the most by tonnage limits, then they absolutely should be better than every other weight class. So im all for increasing torso internal structure.

Actually, tonnage limits BUFF assaults (and heavies) because it will make more of their enemies into lights and mediums, which are easier for them to deal with than enemy heavy/assault spam.

Edited by FupDup, 24 September 2013 - 05:13 PM.

[Khobai]

increasing internal structure is something that needs to be done, simply because right now locations get completely destroyed before items get critted, and increasing internals would fix that. increasing internals would also decrease the chance of the locust/flea getting one-shotted so light mechs would also benefit greatly from it, not just assaults.

Quote

You have never played against a good player in your life.

You do realize Ive won #1 assault pilot in multiple tournaments? Not only have I played against some of the best players in the game, I also know better than anyone what the strengths and weaknesses of assault mechs are.

I dont think assaults are underpowered, but I also dont think a CT internal structure increase would be that much of a buff either, it would just prevent everyone from aiming for center torsos and instead get them to consider knocking out the locations with weapons instead. Forcing players to make intelligent choices would ultimately benefit the game.

Quote

Actually, tonnage limits BUFF assaults (and heavies) because it will make more of their enemies into lights and mediums, which are easier for them to deal with than enemy heavy/assault spam.

Not really. Because why would anyone want to take a 100 ton Atlas that only has 8 hardpoints when they could take a 65 Jagermech that also has 8 hardpoints (and better hardpoint locations too) AND gives their team a 35 ton advantage on top of that? Tonnage limits will basically make the Atlas completely useless. Although lighter assaults like the Stalker and Victor will still be popular, since they wont suck up your team's tonnage, and still carry significant firepower. Tonnage limits are definitely going to hurt the 90-100 tonners the most. Especially when matchmaker is giving you noobs in Atlases on your team.

IMO role warfare is actually a much better way to balance weight classes than tonnage limits. If lights and mediums were given roles worth playing, then players would play them of their own free will, and thered be no need to impose tonnage limits in the first place. That and the scaling issues need to be addressed in some of the mroe extreme cases like the Trebuchet.

Scouting needs to be an actual thing. Its silly that lights are running around in combat roles... The role of light mechs should be scouting/spotting targets, electronic warfare, and being able to find weak points in enemy mechs (i.e. where ammo is located) and being able to mark those locations for their teammates so they know where to shoot.

Also mediums need should be much more versatile, and one way to do that IMO is through the module system. Mediums should be able to equip the most modules of any weight class. Additionally most mediums still need an engine cap increase because theyre way too slow compared to most heavies.

Edited by Khobai, 25 September 2013 - 12:30 AM.