47 replies to this topic

[Riptor]

Heffay, on 25 September 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

Hehe.... yeah, right. You sound like someone who isn't aiming for a particular torso at 250 meters. Keep plugging away at that left arm! You'll brute force your way through it eventually!

Uhm.... what?

Heffay i know you think of yourselfe as PGIs personal paladin but that doesnt even make any friggin sense.

How does anything i wrote lead you to the conclusion of me not being able to aim properly at 250 m? Are you drunk?

Didnt i just wrote that you can hit any target reliable wherever you want aslong as its not a light mech going 140 + kph and that this simple fact makes your previous argument about "convergence" being a great balancing factor null and void?

Anything bigger then a spider and i will core you out, unless one of your side torsos is allready opened by someone else or i know that youre using an XL... then ofcourse ill go for the side torso.

Fact of the matter is that most mech deaths are caused by center torso coring without even so much as touching the other parts of the mechs and that clearly shows that the current system is faulty. You can claim that youre twisting your torso all you want but the enemy will simply wait for you to look at him again because you know.. you will have to look at him to shoot him. And this tiny moment is more then enough to place all your shots into the enemies center torso pinpoint accurate.

So no, convergence is a non issue aslong as youre fighting anything running under 140 kph

Edited by Riptor, 25 September 2013 - 03:24 PM.

[Heffay]

Riptor, on 25 September 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

Fact of the matter is that most mech deaths are caused by center torso coring without even so much as touching the other parts of the mechs and that clearly shows that the current system is faulty. You can claim that youre twisting your torso all you want but the enemy will simply wait for you to look at him again because you know.. you will have to look at him to shoot him. And this tiny moment is more then enough to place all your shots into the enemies center torso pinpoint accurate.

Again, where are your teammates? Why would you look into focused fire? How are you subject to the fire of multiple mechs while being unable to even touch one of them?

The problem isn't the system... There is a reason why this is called the thinking man's shooter.

Edit: You know what, maybe you're right. After all, I've *never* seen anyone torso twist out of damage, time the enemy's shots so they can turn back on the cooldown, and deliver a returning salvo. Never happened, not once no matter what level of play. Just suicide to do that. Only for the 1300 Elo bracket.

Edited by Heffay, 25 September 2013 - 03:45 PM.

[Riptor]

Heffay, on 25 September 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

Again, where are your teammates? Why would you look into focused fire? How are you subject to the fire of multiple mechs while being unable to even touch one of them?

The problem isn't the system... There is a reason why this is called the thinking man's shooter.

Edit: You know what, maybe you're right. After all, I've *never* seen anyone torso twist out of damage, time the enemy's shots so they can turn back on the cooldown, and deliver a returning salvo. Never happened, not once no matter what level of play. Just suicide to do that. Only for the 1300 Elo bracket.

It doesnt matter where my teammates are. At the end of the match atleast 12 peoples mechs will be destroyed and most of them if not all will be destroyed by being cored with little to no damage to the rest of their mech.

Is that such a huge deal that you cant understand that?

Also what good does torso twist do if the enemy will simply save up his Alpha strike for the one moment youre looking at him again to fire.

You act as if you can torso twist and still keep firing at the enemy.

Anyone who knows how to play this game will not fire at you imidiantly after their alpha loads are back up again, they will wait till you expose your center torso or side torsos if that location is allready weakend/XL engine. All that additional armor and all those locations on your mech are mostly useless armor wise because no one in their right mind will aim for them. Thats the problem with an armor system that was made for a random hit location system. Theres a reason that when people strip armor its usually the legs or weaponless arms because no one ever seems to aim for them and any damage those locations might receive is completly accidental or splash damage from lrms

Edited by Riptor, 25 September 2013 - 04:46 PM.

[Zyllos]

Riptor, on 25 September 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

It doesnt matter where my teammates are. At the end of the match atleast 12 peoples mechs will be destroyed and most of them if not all will be destroyed by being cored with little to no damage to the rest of their mech.

This is the largest complaint.

This is MechWarrior, the only thing taking damage shouldn't be CTs or LT/RTs.

I understand that most deaths will come from CTs for STD engines and one of the torsos for XL engines because that is the nature of the game, but the issues is that almost all damage only hits the torsos, so whats the point of having armor in the arms?

You can easily see this being a problem when you lose arms after destroying a side torso. It just makes it worst in not wanting to spread damage because if concentrated on a side torso, you get to destroy the arm also.

Edited by Zyllos, 26 September 2013 - 05:28 AM.

[Heffay]

Riptor, on 25 September 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

It doesnt matter where my teammates are.

I see where your problem is.

[Riptor]

Heffay, on 26 September 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:

I see where your problem is.

*facepalm* Are you even reading Mr paladin?

Team play or lack thereof has absolutely nothing to do with my argument. Are you really that immune to logic? And how come you think that I have a problem winning matches? I dont. Infact winning or loosing has nothing to do with the segmented armor system not working as its suposed to.

This isnt about teamplay, winning matches, loosing matches or damage scores. At the end of the day most kills on both sides are due to being cored without the rest of the mech having sustained critical damage

This in turn shows that mechs go down way faster then they actually should and that all these locations are wasted armor (for the most part). No one actually aims for the arms because its alot faster to simply core the enemy instead of disarming them. No one aims for the legs because its way faster to outright core your enemy then cripple them.

There is ZERO tactical advantage about destroying limbs when you can simply core the enemy with 2 to 3 alpha strikes. A dead oponent cant move around or shoot back anymore.. while a crippled oponent can in most cases.

This circumvents the segmented armor system almost completly because we the players can very easaly pick the exact locations where our shots are going to land on anything going slower then 140 kph and is bigger then a jenner.

Did you understood that or should i get barney the creepy TV dinosaur to sing you a song about it?

Edited by Riptor, 26 September 2013 - 06:47 AM.

[Heffay]

Riptor, on 26 September 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

There is ZERO tactical advantage about destroying limbs when you can simply core the enemy with 2 to 3 alpha strikes. A dead oponent cant move around or shoot back anymore.. while a crippled oponent can in most cases.

If the (current) limit of pinpoint alpha strikes is 30 points (lets say dual gauss), how long will it take to kill an Atlas if all you shoot is the center torso and never miss and never have to seek cover to avoid incoming fire and he doesn't move out of range or turn around or get harassed by a flanking lance?

How about this: Say you do see that dual gauss Ilyazilla McGaussiekins Murdermets out there. Do you shoot him in the CT, or in the arm?

Edited by Heffay, 26 September 2013 - 06:49 AM.

[Riptor]

Heffay, on 26 September 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

If the (current) limit of pinpoint alpha strikes is 30 points (lets say dual gauss), how long will it take to kill an Atlas if all you shoot is the center torso and never miss and never have to seek cover to avoid incoming fire and he doesn't move out of range or turn around or get harassed by a flanking lance?

To bad there isnt really a real "limit" since you dont get penalized for 2 gauss + PPC... so infact the current soft limit is more akin to 40 points. So i would say 3 to 4 salvos?

Now think about how much it takes to take out anything lighter then an atlas... like a centurion, kintaro, awesome or victor. And suddenly 2 to 3 alphas and he is gone. And thats only on a 1 on 1 situation. The usual situation is that 4 or more attackers focus fire 1 of 4 possible targets, and all aim for the center torso. So usually you yourselfe only need to fire once.

Wich in turn destroys mechs in a matter of seconds.

Oh and in case you now come up with the argument about teamplay again: Teamplay has no bearing on how to most efficiently bring down a mech and circumvent all that other armor on a mech, 1 vs 1 or 4 vs 4 the quickest and easiest way to destroy a mech is to simply ignore everything but the center torso. Jence why i said teamplay has no effect on how the corpses will look like. Focus fire only worsens the faulty armor system in regards of how quick mechs get destroyed. Althought i would argue that simply focus firing should not be called teamplay... teamplay takes so much more effort then to be smart and look at whom everyone else is firing on.

The armor system is not working as it was intended to and no matter how you argue its not gonna change. The armor system is not spreading damage because its way to easy to hit the location you want to hit.

Lets take one of my Stalkers as an example:

My stalker has maxed armor at 524+ armor points. Sounds impressive right? But it isnt. Due to the fact that everyone aims for its center torso its real armor value however is more akin to 83 armor points plus whatever internal structure it has. That is all you need to destroy from the 524 points worth of armor to actually kill my stalker. And you would be braindead to NOT go straight for the center torso. With an alpha of 40 points you need three salvos to destroy my stalker.

Thats right... that is 441 points worth of armor that you can ignore on a fully armored Stalker if you go straight for the center torso. Wich is easy on a stalker cause all you need to do is shoot them in the crotch, it counts as center torso.

Add in 3 of your team mates and you can destroy me in a matter of seconds and then switch to the next target on my team, and no matter how much i torso twist its not going to help and you know why? Because i will be dead before i can even turn my torso due to the massive alpha strikes. Theres a reason why its called alpha strikes. If you had to fire all your weapons individually i could spread the damage using the armor system but your alpha strike and those of everyone else will almost instantly hit at the same time causing their damage in a time that is akin to firing a gun at someone. Last i checked no human alive is possible to dodge a bullet at the ranges we engage in in this game.

So what we have now is more of a high noon simulation of who can draw first instead of a tactical shooter where you have to think about where to place your shots to cause the most damage on the enemy mech.

Edited by Riptor, 26 September 2013 - 07:16 AM.

[Hugh Fairgrove]

Heffay, on 26 September 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

If the (current) limit of pinpoint alpha strikes is 30 points (lets say dual gauss), how long will it take to kill an Atlas if all you shoot is the center torso and never miss and never have to seek cover to avoid incoming fire and he doesn't move out of range or turn around or get harassed by a flanking lance?

How about this: Say you do see that dual gauss Ilyazilla McGaussiekins Murdermets out there. Do you shoot him in the CT, or in the arm?

Aiming for the CT will take him down faster then worrying about his arms or the damage he's going to be putting on me. If I worry about taking his arm off I'm allowing him the opportunity to put more damage on me. I could try to torso twist and maneuver, but thats just going to leave me exposed to his teammates if there are any around. I will agree that the armor system is wacked and survivability is very low.

That coupled with watching people pilot assualts like they carry the armor of a light mech is frustrating. I can't count how many times I've seen an assualt let mediums go ahead of him/her just to watch them get smoked a second later while they should be protecting those mechs.

[Heffay]

Riptor, on 26 September 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

Add in 3 of your team mates and you can destroy me in a matter of seconds

We keep getting back to this point. You are exposed to a firing line of 4 mechs all by yourself. Losing your center torso is the least of your problems.

It all keeps coming back to being outplayed. Your opponent managed to core you before you cored him. Where is the issue again?

Edited by Heffay, 26 September 2013 - 08:09 AM.

[WarHippy]

Peiper, on 25 September 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

Russ is trying to build the heat scale around a 30 point pinpoint damage scale, with ghost heat penalties for more. This translates to more fun for all.

So why exactly are we not allowed to have more than 2 large lasers without a penalty? Would 3-4 not make more sense for his pin point damage scale?

3 would be 27 damage
4 would be 36 damage, but given that it is only that so long as you hold it in place that doesn't seem unreasonable for his scale.

Edited by WarHippy, 26 September 2013 - 08:13 AM.

[Heffay]

WarHippy, on 26 September 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

So why exactly are we not allowed to have more than 2 large lasers without a penalty? Would 3-4 not make more sense for his pin point damage scale?

3 would be 27 damage
4 would be 36 damage, but given that it is only that so long as you hold it in place that doesn't seem unreasonable for his scale.

Lasers are not pinpoint damage unless the target is standing still. And if the target is standing still, damage isn't the problem.

[WarHippy]

Heffay, on 26 September 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

Lasers are not pinpoint damage unless the target is standing still. And if the target is standing still, damage isn't the problem.

Right, but why then have them penalized by ghost heat? That was the point I was trying to make. Limiting them to 2 does not make a lot of sense.

[Heffay]

WarHippy, on 26 September 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

Right, but why then have them penalized by ghost heat? That was the point I was trying to make. Limiting them to 2 does not make a lot of sense.

Yah... lasers probably aren't as necessary for the ghost heat penalty, but that is why the penalty varies per weapon system. It can be tweaked to be less for some, and more for others.

[Riptor]

Heffay, on 26 September 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

We keep getting back to this point. You are exposed to a firing line of 4 mechs all by yourself. Losing your center torso is the least of your problems.

It all keeps coming back to being outplayed. Your opponent managed to core you before you cored him. Where is the issue again?

EVEN IF IM SUROUNDED BY MY TEAMMATES THEY WILL KILL ME. HAVING TEAMMATES MAKES YOU NOT IMMUNE TO INCOMMING FIRE

It is not being "outplayed"

Put 12 vs 12 people in a straight line oposed of each other.

The guys that focus fire center torsos win.

Take 1 vs 1 and put them oposed to each other

The one focusing on the center torso wins.

How is that hard to understand? Pinpoint accuracy circumvents the armor segment system completly and having more players around only worsens the effect.

The reason we have an armor segment system is to prevent mechs from going down to fast, but by enabling a player to have pinpoint accuracy this actually LOWERS the survivability of a mech.

The firepower focused on a single target raises enourmously while the armor of the target stays the same no matter how many additional targets are available.

Having my teammates around will not somehow make me less succeptible to incomming damage. There is no way to shield me from damage simply by acting as a team. The only thing a team can do to protect me from damage is to kill the enemy faster then they kill us.. wich is achieved by focusing on one targets center torso obliterating said target in a second.

If the enemy team decides to call me out as a target they will all aim for my center torso and the kill time will be so fast it doesnt matter if i have all 11 of my teammates around me.. i will go down in an instant.

It doesnt matter that i have 524 armor because no matter how you twist it all that matters are the 83 armor points in the center + the little inner structure i have. And those are gone just by 3 heavy mechs taking a single snapshot each at my center torso. 3 out of 12 mechs mind you. It is instantly, you cant turn to spread the damage because of alpha strikes delivering all their damage in an instant. (unless you use lasers then spreading damage is possible)

You make it sound that one has actually be exposed for a large amount of time when in truth coring a mech is a matter of moments. Heck if they time their fire they can take me out in one second.

All twisting and turning wont help you if you get anihilated by one salvo. It doesnt matter that my teammates stand left and right of me, the damage will still be the same.

The team that focus fires down their oponent first by targeting their center torsos wins the game, making all other armored locations on a mech window dressing.

Edited by Riptor, 26 September 2013 - 09:01 AM.

[Heffay]

Riptor, on 26 September 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

EVEN IF IM SUROUNDED BY MY TEAMMATES THEY WILL KILL ME.

Not if you torso twist away and get behind cover.

You overextended and got focus fired. This is not a problem with aiming.

Teamwork is OP.

[Riptor]

Heffay, on 26 September 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

Not if you torso twist away and get behind cover.

You overextended and got focus fired. This is not a problem with aiming.

Teamwork is OP.

I... i dont know where to go with this... you really dont get it do you?

They see me, they alpha strike me, im dead.

Now even if i survive (wich is more likely with an assault then a heavy or medium) the first salvo because lets say only one or two guys of the enemy team managed to hit my center torso:

Even if i go for cover or torso twist they are not going to shoot me unless they can hit my center torso cause anything else is wasted ammo.

If i dont look at my enemy i cannot shoot at him. If i cant shoot at my enemy im not helping my team. And if i look at the enemy one more alpha will take me out of the game because my center torso AND ONLY MY CENTER TORSO is heavily damaged.

Also all this does not change the fact that the enemy will only fire at my center torso and not on anything else (unless im grossly outnumbered or facing newbies) because its still the easiest way to squish an enemy mech.

Do you get it?

The armor segment system does nothing for mech survivability because its so **** easy to alpha strike peoples CT. You can not dodge an alpha strike, all you can hope for is that the enemy is worse at aiming then you are or that you get the drop on an unprepared enemy or pack more CT armor then him and can outlast him.

This isnt about winning or loosing this is about mech survivability in general. Mechs die to fast no matter if youre the winner or the looser.

How about you put your white paladin armor down for a moment and realise that you cant take one system from Tabletop and make it work without all the other systems from TT specifically created to support it.

This armor system was create to work with random hit locations. We dont have random hit locations and we dont want it so a different Armor system needs to be put in to guarantee that mechs dont die as fast as they do now.

Anyways this is the last time i try to explain this to you, it seems it is quite futile to try to explain something so basic to someone who seems to be immune to basic math.

Edited by Riptor, 26 September 2013 - 09:24 AM.

[Wilhelm Fraek]

You might aswell ignore him Riptor, he is just going to try and counter everything you say with the game is fine your just bad. As for what the conversation is about, I agree with Riptor there is almost no point to aiming anywhere but the CT unless you are far enough away or havent been seen that you can hip away. If it wasnt like this you probably wouldnt see so many mechs build around alpha strikes.

Edited by Wilhelm Fraek, 26 September 2013 - 11:57 AM.

[Benden]

[color=#959595]12:50 Russ is excited about going to San Francisco (launch event). So, why launch without UI2.0, CW, Dx11, etc? Because of business reasons, you know, the unfun side. Business, blah, blah, blah. To quote a PAX speaker from SOE (planetside) “There is no finished product.” and Russ kind-of agrees with that. PGI doesn’t think that they’re going to get a whole bunch of new players at launch, and know there’s no big-bang happening with launch. It’s just a benchmark, and an indication that it’s okay to review the game. The game runs/works now, however, there is no end in sight for the development of the game with all the new stuff we all wanted. [No end in sight? He he… -Peiper][/color]

[color=#959595]15:50 Russ agrees. 25 press will be at the launch event. He’s counting on that to make a favorable impression more directly (opposed to reading the promises vs. the foamers on the MWO forums/reddit vs. dropping cold as a new player/reviewer). [He’s gonna wow them with CW descriptions and UI2.0 powerpoints like they did the fans a year ago! -Peiper][/color]

[color=#959595]He says UI2.0 and CW are what the core community wants, but in perspective, the reviewers won’t delve into that side of MWO. They’ll hop into the game, try out some mechs, blow stuff up, mess around in the mechlab, and review it from that perspective. They won’t put the time/effort necessary into the game to really know/understand CW and UI2.0 (stuff like leagues/lobbies/private matches) anyway. [First he says, don’t disparage the journalists, then says they won’t do a deep look into the game when reviewing it… lol -Peiper] [/color]

[color=#959595]21:00 Daeron describes a new player experience that backs up what Russ says. New players look at the game and see the WOW factor of dropping into a battle and being immersed in such a novel game[/color]


Those are the parts that worries me.
Means they dont give a f*ck about lack of new UI (same for 2 years) and no metagame (we keep death matching ad nauseam).
They dont mind the reviews with the shallow launch, as they consider that reviewers wont mind lack of depht and they're counting about new players and the WOW factor.
Dunno why, but suddenly I feel like a sudden pain in my founder's a$$...

Edited by Benden, 26 September 2013 - 03:20 PM.

[Aeolus Drift]

I can't wait to see peiper's notes for the launch event speech. lord knows we want the jucy bits.

Edited by Interceptor12, 27 September 2013 - 10:54 AM.