39 replies to this topic

[SirLANsalot]

Currently the UAC5 is a flat jam chance, meaning it can (and more often then not) dose jam on the first 2nd shot. Having the gun build up its jam chance, like how the Rortery Autocannons will once they come.

Example is this. First shot is fine, 2nd shot fired (double tap) has a 5% chance to jam. With the jam chance doubling every time the 2nd shot if fired if the button is being held down. So at most people would be able to get a 4-6 shot burst before jams start to occur (or the chance starts to get high enough that its almost guaranteed to happen).

Abuse? None, You would have to wait 3 seconds (two full cycles) of not firing for it to reset the jam chance. Jam clearing should be 4x the CD of the gun, so for the UAC5 it would be 6 seconds.

This mechanic would do well to apply to all rapid fire weapons like the Ultras and Rorterys. The jam chance I mentioned is for the UAC5, for the UAC2 chance should be far lower (2%) and the UAC20 being a 15% base. This would relegate these guns to burst fire (as intended), so you can get some high damage quickly, and then stop before the gun actually jams.




A flat jam chance is uncontrollable and will never properly work, either it will be too high or too low, and its almost impossible to find the "happy medium" for weapons of this kind. As such players will either overuse it, or never use it at all due to that reason. The UAC5 in general is supposed to be better then the AC5 anyways and should be used more so because of that. Dose that mean the AC5 becomes obsolete? Not entirely, but it becomes a more situational gun based on the mech chassis using it. With the stacking jam chance you have more control over how often you want this gun to jam (this is aimed at devs). So if 5% seems to be too low or too much then it can be adjusted, and so on and so forth.




This post has been a long time coming, and its taken me some time to finally get to posting it. What caused me to finally really get to putting it down, was the NGNG podcast when they covered this in the interview #2.

Edited by SirLANsalot, 25 September 2013 - 02:49 PM.

[Monky]

An alternative that can work for all UAC types w/o outdating normal or LBX AC (if they get LBX up to par), while also reducing randomness is to put in a heat meter for the UAC weapon system.

UAC2 - after 5 double bursts w/o a pause has a jam chance of 50% (1 point of heat per double burst, 3 seconds to lose a point, cap of 5) - total back to back burst damage w/o incurring jam chance = 20

UAC5 - after 3 double bursts w/o a pause has a jam chance of 50% (1 point per double burst, 4 seconds to lose a point, cap of 3) - total back to back burst damage w/o incurring jam chance = 30

UAC10 - after 2 double bursts w/o a pause, has a jam chance of 50% (1 point per double burst, 7 seconds to lose a point, cap of 2) - total back to back burst damage w/o incurring a jam chance = 40

UAC20 - after 1 double burst w/o pausing, has a jam chance of 50% (1 point per double burst, 10 seconds to lose a point, cap of 1) - total back to back burst damage w/o incurring a jam chance = 40

The reason for this layout is to let the tonnage and heat cost of heavier AC's have an advantage. For instance, 2 UAC2's can dump 40 damage for 12 tons + ammo before incurring jam chance, same as a UAC10 (12 tons vs 12 tons), however have more hardpoint flexibility and range in exchange for raw hit power. It has to get more restrictive the more damage per shot as focused fire will be the real death dealer if it is not balanced properly. This is also why a harsh 50% jam rate is recommended with this style - after you deal x amount of 'burst damage' without a break you are really gambling.

The exact numbers are up for debate, but this scheme enables better skill levels in UAC use and keeps all of them roughly on parity for tonnage and damage output over time while still making each one good at what it does - burst versions of regular AC's when use appropriately.

[The Boz]

%jam chance should die in a fire and drown.
Instead, UACs either need an accuracy debuff, being unable to deliver pinpoint damage to a single component at 200 meters, or have an internam magazine system that enables a short burst, but then defaults to very slow cycling.

[General Taskeen]

The Boz, on 25 September 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

%jam chance should die in a fire and drown.
Instead, UACs either need an accuracy debuff, being unable to deliver pinpoint damage to a single component at 200 meters, or have an internam magazine system that enables a short burst, but then defaults to very slow cycling.

I can like this hard enough.

Getting tired of the BS rolling dice mechanic and the way UAC's are programmed in general. They need to return to how they were in previous Mech titles, just a faster firing AC, spread out in a burst of lower damage shells.

OP, its good that took some time to think this out - but, I also like playing Clan Mechs in previous Mech Warrior games and I'm not sure why a Clanner would equip a space magic gun that jams by rolling the dice 50%, win or lose!

Edited by General Taskeen, 25 September 2013 - 04:42 PM.

[aniviron]

I understand the people who are against the random jam chance; personally, I'm not, as there is a skill to knowing percentages, i.e. on average this works out better, so you can be certain that something is a winning strategy most of the time, even if there is jitter because of the randomness.

If the random jam chance is kept, I support this idea fully. I made a less-well-fleshed-out post to this same effect some time ago, and the gist of why this is a good idea is as follows:

UAC5 is intended to provide greater burst damage (more damage frontloaded) in exchange for less sustained damage over time. Having a low jam chance on the first few shots means you get nearly guaranteed burst damage, as intended, but the increasing jam chance as you continue to fire means that unless you cooldown before jamming as the chance rises, the AC5 still outdamages the UAC in a situation where you just get to lay into a target for a long period of time.

[Shaftronics]

There's not much skill in knowing percentages.

If the game is in a good mood, you'll not jam for a good 5-shot burst with multiple UAC 5's.

If the game thinks you're an *******, all 3 of your UACs will jam by the 2nd shot.

Its just far too random to love and use in a proper manner.

[FupDup]

Even if you gave the UAC/20 a 100% chance of jamming, a 12-ton weapon that deals 20x2 pinpoint damage will never be balanced.

[Artgathan]

FupDup, on 25 September 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

Even if you gave the UAC/20 a 100% chance of jamming, a 12-ton weapon that deals 20x2 pinpoint damage will never be balanced.

So much ghost heat.

I agree with a bar-based jamming system (IE: as you fire, the bar gets more full, gun stops firing when bar is filled). A more interesting implementation would be that the UAC fires extremely fast at first, but slows down over time (until it cools off). This would really emphasize it's use as a burst DPS weapon.

[RandomLurker]

I really like the concept of trading burst damage for sustained damage. Gives it a niche and there's a lot of places I would use it. Thing is, it doesn't work in practice because it's completely unpredictable. I'm not going to pay the extra weight/cash for an Ultra that may or may do what it's supposed to. I'll just sacrifice somewhere and squeeze on an AC/10 or something instead. The role/concept is good, the implementation is terrible. This is one of the places where PGI must let go of TT mechanics for the sake of gameplay.

With current mechanics, you have to boat the UAC to mitigate the jamming. If you only have one, then a single jam on the first shot has completely negated 10 tons of weaponry.

[Calica]

I actually like the OPs suggestion a lot more then the follow ups. I really couldn't care less about TT Mechanics but the unreliable nature of UAC's is a bit of their charm. With the suggested "build-up" of a crit chance burst fire would be encouraged and player skill would be rewarded without changing that unreliable nature that a UAC is. Longer durations of unjamming would punish unskillful use. Numbers are up for testing anyways, might be that these are over/under powered. Only thing i'm critical about is the "reset" timer. I'd rather have a slow decline in critchance every time i decide to make a pause instead of a full reset every x secs.

Also, the mechanic of firing "short, steady bursts" to avoid jamming isn't to hard to explain to new players, even without having to look up tables and charts on the forums (or more likely wiki and smurfy). Fire a couple of shots, take cover, fire another burst. In a desperate attempt to kill the mech shooting at you while beeing cored you still might take the chance of a jam to get one or two more shots off.

[Xanquil]

Random things happen, A rapid fire weapon can and will jam through no fault of it's operator.(been there, done that, with a M2) The ultra series of ACs are even stated to be unreliable.(20% is a bit high though) All they need is a switch to go from single shot to rapid fire and they would be fine.

[Joseph Mallan]

General Taskeen, on 25 September 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

I can like this hard enough.

Getting tired of the BS rolling dice mechanic and the way UAC's are programmed in general. They need to return to how they were in previous Mech titles, just a faster firing AC, spread out in a burst of lower damage shells.

OP, its good that took some time to think this out - but, I also like playing Clan Mechs in previous Mech Warrior games and I'm not sure why a Clanner would equip a space magic gun that jams by rolling the dice 50%, win or lose!

I fired M-60s and S.A.W.s in my day. They jammed sometimes. The S.A.W. more so than the M-60. But it happened.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 26 September 2013 - 06:16 AM.

[General Taskeen]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 September 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

I fired M-60s and S.A.W.s in my day. They jammed sometimes. The S.A.W. more so than the M-60. But it happened.

Well then maybe you could ask the Dev to put a man size soldier and give you a virtual M-60 in the game? This isn't an ARMA1-3 Simulation Shooter.

The UAC's always fired no matter what in previous Mech Titles, for one reason, and one reason only - fun. Fun trumps over rolling dice. Those games also did away with straight TT damage values, I don't see how that would not work also in MWO instead of the silly balancing act with UAC's currently.

[Joseph Mallan]

General Taskeen, on 26 September 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

Well then maybe you could ask the Dev to put a man size soldier and give you a virtual M-60 in the game? This isn't an ARMA1-3 Simulation Shooter.

The UAC's always fired no matter what in previous Mech Titles, for one reason, and one reason only - fun. Fun trumps over rolling dice. Those games also did away with straight TT damage values, I don't see how that would not work also in MWO instead of the silly balancing act with UAC's currently.

I haven't used Ultas for multiple reason s on TT and in the Computer games. Part of the fun was the dice rolling BTW. Its been 11 Years and players in the Metro area still fear my Daughter's name from one lucky shot that earned her the Kerensky Blood Name. As to strict adherence... if it feels right then I am good with it. But feels right is going to be different between any two people.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 26 September 2013 - 06:54 AM.

[Cimarb]

I have been trying out the AC/UAC for the last month or so while mastering my Phracts and Jaegers, and of the options you guys have suggested, I like the OPs idea the best. A linear increase is much easier to code in and skill can dramatically increase usability, which is how it should be. It would still give a chance of jamming after a couple rounds, but you gambled more the longer you held it.

Regarding real world examples: Even with conventional technology, the longer you hold the trigger, the more likely it is to jam. The M240 (SAW) is notorious for it, but even that had very little chance during normal use if you kept it clean - the chance went up every second you held the trigger, which is why you learned how to limit your bursts in training.

An even better example/option, though, is the auto cannon on an A10 Warthog. That cannon is so powerful, they actually limit their bursts so it doesn't stop the jet in mid-flight! Give the AC/UAC an accuracy penalty the more rounds that are fired in a burst. A UAC will build the penalty up quicker, which makes sense too. Try to fire an automatic weapon in a long burst accurately and tell me your results...

Summary: Using common sense in these rules makes it much easier for people to learn how to use them, as well as easier to deal with. This applies to other wonky rules, like ghost heat, but that is a whole other discussion... Just don't make things up when the real world has solutions already!

Edited for typos...dang apple speelchecker can't speel...

Edited by Cimarb, 26 September 2013 - 07:17 AM.

[Crazyeyes244]

I like the internal magazine idea. You get a set of shots at double-tap rate, then a longer reload Makes a lot more sense to me. Gets rid of the randomness, maintains the "burst" damage over sustained damage concept.

However, this throws out the possibility of firing at regular AC5 speed...Devil's advocate: perhaps this is another one of those "do we need to stick so close to tabletop" moments?

If we are to have the jam chance though, I definitely agree in making it a linearly increasing chance as you keep firing is the way to go. (Hell, we already have most of code thanks to ghost heat!)

[focuspark]

this is easy. The goal of balancing the UAC/5 is to make it possible to do burst damage, but control its overall DPS. Therefore the following mechanic is ideal for any size UAC.

UACn cooldown = ACn cooldown
UAC can fire again after 33% of its cooldown has taken place, but takes a "backlog" of cooldown time for any incomplete cooldown
When the UAC reaches 300% of its cooldown, it "jams" and must cooldown to 0% backlog before it can fire again.

In the case of the UAC5 we have a 1.5 second cooldown. A mechwarrior could:

• Fire the UAC5
  
• Wait 33% of 1.5 seconds (0.5 seconds)
  
• Fire the UAC5 - now has a backlog of 1.0 seconds
  
• Wait 033% of 1.5 seconds (0.5 seconds)
  
• Fire the UAC5 - now has a backlog of 2.0 seconds
  
• wash rinse repeat
  
• Until four shots have been fired and there's a backlock > 300% 1.5 seconds (5.0 seconds > 4.5 seconds)
  
• Wait 5.0 seconds for the UAC to "unjam"

[Almond Brown]

It is interesting to read how so many want Random Hit/Spread/CoF damage application vs the Pinpoint, but when a random element is added, the world rails against it like it was Lucifer himself that did the work. Interesting. LOL

[Calica]

I see that a lot of people like to change the nature of the beast, making it a "reliable" choice. But if you want a reliable Weapon there still is the normal AC5. UACs are ment to be unreliable and i think it's totally ok. Realworld examples like those shown by Cimarb back this up. What isn't realistic or fun is that there is a (not so low) chance that your Rapid Fire UAC will jam on the second shot. Like i said earlier, to hell when TT Mechanics if they are in the way. Doesn't mean i want to change the nature of the beast, just tame it a little so it makes sense in a tactical shooter.

A gradual buildup of jam still seems the best comprimise with BT Canon, RL and could be very much balanced Gameplay wise. A big plus is that the concept is easily explainable. Short, accurate bursts usally trump prolonged use of automatic Weapons, so the concept is easy to learn by almost anyone who ever played a shooter.

This also provides diversity of Weapon choices... if you want steady reliable DPS, take the AC5. Want something with a bit more burst damage but unreliable prolonged use take the UAC5.

[Joseph Mallan]

The only time an Ultra would jam at my table was usually the first time a player shot it OR when they needed that double tap to finish off a powerful Enemy.