97 replies to this topic

[mike29tw]

FupDup, on 25 September 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

Eh, I wasn't bashing lights. I was just saying that they were extremely rare when hit detection was fully operational--that's practically the opposite of bashing them.

I remember the day when Laser HSR came out. I can duel and win against a spider in my Cicada 2A with 6 medium lasers. Now? It's a suicide......

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 25 September 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

The Spider has tons of "Gaps" in between it's legs/torso/arms, etc. LBX will tear a spider up though.

Just fought a spider in my Cicada 3M with an LB10X. There were shots that I'm sure 100% hits(ie, spider stuck on terrain, me firing LB10X at him at roughly 50-100m), the spider paperdoll flashes, but only took bare minimum of damage. It is as if he had +10 damage mitigation armor on him. Seeing as not everyone has this problem, I believe it's probably related to ping. I often play at 200-250 ping so fighting a spider has always been a pain. Funny enough, I think I landed more shots on spider with my AC20 with any other weapon.

Edited by mike29tw, 26 September 2013 - 02:16 AM.

[Wispsy]

Windsaw, on 26 September 2013 - 02:11 AM, said:

That being said I am a little suprised at how many Spiders are out there since in a 1:1 duell IMO the Spider is inferior to the Commando.

lol...

I am guessing you are not very good at using jumpjets?

[Mycrus]

If you see a commando you either have new pilots testing it out or veterans that will rip you in half.

Hands down of all my some 55 mechs, my favorite remains the death knell..

[Wolfways]

It seems to be random though.
I've just been in a match in my Stalker and i screwed up, went the wrong way, and ended up alone just as i ran into two Jenners. I don't know if they were bad pilots but i killed them both pretty quickly. Normally i'd see one Jenner and know i'm dead.

[stjobe]

Ewigan, on 26 September 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:

stjobe, that was GXP are for

I've never used GXP to level my 'mechs and I don't think I ever will. I prefer to level my 'mechs by actually playing them (or not playing them, as in the case of the 5V).

Ewigan, on 26 September 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:

And i had to like Windsaws comment, for justice!

Us Commando pilots must stick together. The few, the proud, the borderline psychotic!

...

I find it interesting that nobody cares to comment on the stats I posted though (neither here nor in the other thread); why am I not dying less in Spiders if their hit reg is so much worse than the Commandos?

Cold, hard facts seems to take a back seat to hyperbole and unverifiable anecdotes; perhaps I shouldn't be surprised at this.

[DemonRaziel]

Windsaw, on 26 September 2013 - 02:11 AM, said:

That being said I am a little suprised at how many Spiders are out there since in a 1:1 duell IMO the Spider is inferior to the Commando. I guess it is because it is easier to raise your survivability level against a lot of opponents in a Spider than it is in a Commando. Just a tactics difference I guess.

Spider's got a better armor, maneuverability and most likely speed and heat efficiency vs. Commie's better fire power (or "auto aim" function). Of course this may not always be the case based on particular builds for each chassi. All things considered though, in a straight 1v1 duel, Spider should come out on top, unless there's a discrepancy between the players' skill.

But the main reason you see so many Spiders being fielded recently, compared to the days of yesteryore, is due to the hitbox/HSR issues - many pilots are either testing, or trying to exploit Spiders' (alleged) ability to soak up damage like a Spongebob's long lost robo-brother.

That being said, I (and certainly many more people around here) have been playing Spiders pretty much from the day they got released and the 5D is my primary 'Mech since, so only maybe half of the current Spider-pilots are playing this 'Mech 'cus all the cool kids do so...

[Mudhutwarrior]

Something is amiss when A spider came head on to my atlas and two alphas ac20-2LL hit him dead center within 100mtrs and he showed no damage. Then in a twist turn I hit him several times untill the other heavy came and started firing. I was 90% and he took me down along with the other heavy with not a scratch. Oh, I checked 60 PNG 28 fps. After seeing real spider pilots I can say this guy was not good in comparison but we could not touch him. In general spiders get hit and it seems like just luck if they register or not. That was the extreme above no one has been able to explain.

[Joseph Mallan]

For a while after Stat rewind went on line, Spiders were an easy kill. Now... Not so much. maybe the DEVs need to reset it back to the beginning an see what happens.

[Windsaw]

Wispsy, on 26 September 2013 - 02:44 AM, said:

I am guessing you are not very good at using jumpjets?

Indeed I am not, but that is not why I did that comment.
I did because whenever I am battling a Spider I WAIT for them to jump. It is their real big point of vulnerability. You just have to throttle down a little and estimate where they land. Then you have a half second to pour a full alpha strike on them which they can not retaliate.
The only Spiders that gave me problems were those who either did not jump at all or used their JJ to get away from me. I usually can't follow them when they disengage. This is the one advantage they have over me.

Interestingly enough, most Jenners that engage me do NOT jump, even if they could. Besides their superior firepower this is the main reason why I pick my duells with them very carefully, if at all.
Because of this I suspect that the majority of Jenner players are better pilots than Spider pilots. They don't jump in duells.

DemonRaziel, on 26 September 2013 - 03:40 AM, said:

Spider's got a better armor, maneuverability and most likely speed and heat efficiency vs. Commie's better fire power (or "auto aim" function). Of course this may not always be the case based on particular builds for each chassi. All things considered though, in a straight 1v1 duel, Spider should come out on top, unless there's a discrepancy between the players' skill.

The one thing Spiders usually lack is weapons in their arms. The reach of the Commando arms is so big that I can often avoid being hit by Spiders. Of course it takes a bit of practice to actually use that advantage, but when you have figured it out, it is a big advantage that undoes the Spider's armor superiority.
It is a tactic I already paractised against Jenners before Streaks became overpowered, but it is much harder to pull off against those.

And in my experience the maneuverability of both mechs is at least even. Commando wins if you add arms reach to maneuverability, which I do.

Edited by Windsaw, 26 September 2013 - 04:38 AM.

[Mehlan]

Quote

Something is amiss when A spider came head on to my atlas and two alphas ac20-2LL hit him dead center within 100mtrs and he showed no damage. Then in a twist turn I hit him several times untill the other heavy came and started firing. I was 90% and he took me down along with the other heavy with not a scratch. Oh, I checked 60 PNG 28 fps. After seeing real spider pilots I can say this guy was not good in comparison but we could not touch him. In general spiders get hit and it seems like just luck if they register or not. That was the extreme above no one has been able to explain.

and how did you check your ping? and keep in mind it is NOT just your connection to the game that impacts it...

Edited by Mehlan, 26 September 2013 - 04:42 AM.

[Blacksoul1987]

Audlyn, on 25 September 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

But with peoples endless whining and lack of a brain that may think "HUH...maybe we should have a backup plan in case of cap" The speed and hit reg endurance is the only thing that makes them viable now that capping is suicide.

Also of note: I think more players are using the hitreg problem as an excuse other than being a bad shot.
Anybody have thoughts on this statement?

I know hitreg is a problem play against people with high pings you will see. it seems really to be a latency issue I think (don't know networking so not qualified to say for sure). MW4 had similar issues though it was much worse in that game and when I was on dial up I abused it to the extreme and my clan did as well often having me run as a decoy drawing ridiculous amounts of fire and in addition to that if you had open web pages it got even more extreme though lasers could still deal damage through the lag. like I said though it was more extreme in that game but it still happens in mwo. and I don't think i'm a bad shot don't have anyone to compare it to though so i'll let you decide. Weapon Matches Fired Hit Accuracy Time Equip. Damage AC/20 100 1,113 795 71.43% 09:16:28 16,124

[Megalosauroid]

I couldn't agree more with OP. Its unfair to leave existing light pilots with their mechs in this broken state while releasing new chassis. PGI should definitely fix lights before releasing any more.

Being unable to walk over small crests and objects or up a moderate incline is one of the most fun parts of playing mwo imo and lights are missing out.

[Clit Beastwood]

Windsaw, on 26 September 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

Indeed I am not, but that is not why I did that comment.
I did because whenever I am battling a Spider I WAIT for them to jump. It is their real big point of vulnerability. You just have to throttle down a little and estimate where they land. Then you have a half second to pour a full alpha strike on them which they can not retaliate.
The only Spiders that gave me problems were those who either did not jump at all or used their JJ to get away from me. I usually can't follow them when they disengage. This is the one advantage they have over me.

Interestingly enough, most Jenners that engage me do NOT jump, even if they could. Besides their superior firepower this is the main reason why I pick my duells with them very carefully, if at all.
Because of this I suspect that the majority of Jenner players are better pilots than Spider pilots. They don't jump in duells.
The one thing Spiders usually lack is weapons in their arms. The reach of the Commando arms is so big that I can often avoid being hit by Spiders. Of course it takes a bit of practice to actually use that advantage, but when you have figured it out, it is a big advantage that undoes the Spider's armor superiority.
It is a tactic I already paractised against Jenners before Streaks became overpowered, but it is much harder to pull off against those.

And in my experience the maneuverability of both mechs is at least even. Commando wins if you add arms reach to maneuverability, which I do.

I run 1-2 jj in my spiders since flying around is usually a noobie mistake... Too easy to hit. I use them for "skating" over uneven terrain or up slopes. The only time I fly is when attacking, if I need a stable firing platform. Jump up, at apex let off jets hold shift (turn on arm lock) and shoot. Works very well.

Edited by Fierostetz, 26 September 2013 - 06:20 AM.

[DemonRaziel]

Windsaw, on 26 September 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

Because of this I suspect that the majority of Jenner players are better pilots than Spider pilots. They don't jump in duells.

I disagree. Like, a lot. Jump jets are one of these 'Mechs' strengths and knowing how to use your strengths correctly and effectively is what makes a good pilot in my opinion.

Windsaw, on 26 September 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

The one thing Spiders usually lack is weapons in their arms. The reach of the Commando arms is so big that I can often avoid being hit by Spiders. Of course it takes a bit of practice to actually use that advantage, but when you have figured it out, it is a big advantage that undoes the Spider's armor superiority.
It is a tactic I already paractised against Jenners before Streaks became overpowered, but it is much harder to pull off against those.

And in my experience the maneuverability of both mechs is at least even. Commando wins if you add arms reach to maneuverability, which I do.

The only spider w/out any arm-mounted weapons is the 5V, which is kinda the red headed step-child of the family.

He's painfully out-gunned by every other 'Mech in game (one large, or 2 smaller energy weapons) and lacks the arm movement for precise aiming. His only "strengths" are the fact that he can use both arms to soak up damage and if he packs a standard engine, even his side torsos, thus becomming a miniature zombie. I do agree he's at a disadvantage when fighting a Commando, but if he manages to blow the commies arms off, he might get an upper hand - pure theory here, though.

The 5K (let's assume he's armed with an MPL and 4x MGs) has the disadvantage of extremly short range (and cone of fire), making it hard for him to keep focusing on a particular location as well as avoiding hits. If he managed to "open" a vital section on the Commando, he might be able to exploit it with his quad-machineguns and turn the tides.

Now "the Spider flagship", the 5D, is a completely different animal. 2/3 weapons are on his arm, giving him decent aiming range and he can still use the other arm as a shield. He's got even room to pack one, or even two large energy weapons, thus upping his damage output compared to his brethren, while still retaining the upsides of JJs, maneuverability and superior armor (albeit still paper-thin compared to all the heavier tin-cans). And the jump jets also help with lining up the shots and converging all the weapons on th same spot. For me, a Commie vs Spider 5D duel, is a no-brainer win for the Spidy, if the pilot skill is similar on both sides.

[Windsaw]

DemonRaziel, on 26 September 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

I disagree. Like, a lot. Jump jets are one of these 'Mechs' strengths and knowing how to use your strengths correctly and effectively is what makes a good pilot in my opinion.

I agree with what you say.
They have to use them effectively.
Use them for escaping, for getting into position, for scouting, to avoid obstacles and for sniping.
Do NOT used them in dogfights with other lights. It's not effective usage.

As for the rest of what you wrote: It's probably true on paper, but it totally contradicts my experience whenever I fight other Spiders.
My guess is that the only Spider pilots who pick a prolonged fight with my Commando are pilots that don't know how to use their mech well. For example surprisingly few have any arm-mounted weapons. Maybe it is because they favor the center torso to gain zombie survivability. I don't know.
MGs are now a pretty good weapon against heaviers, but they are laughable against fast lights.

[Elwood Blues]

Audlyn, on 25 September 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

Also of note: I think more players are using the hitreg problem as an excuse other than being a bad shot.
Anybody have thoughts on this statement?

I play lights and shoot at them in other mechs also. Hit registration is an issue, but not as bad as it used to be. The spider is the only exception. Hit registration on the spider is still pretty bad. Spider pilots die more than the 3L pilots used to when that mech was bugged, but I've seen spiders do some pretty craptastic dodging and survive 6 mechs shooting at them. I'm more than willing to admit when I miss a mech, but seeing a hit connect and seeing your crosshair turn red and then seeing little to no damage on the target is just frustrating. When that problem is resolved, I expect there will be a lot of bad spider pilots that will find out how bad they have been. That isn't to say that I haven't seen good spider pilots, but just like the 3L used to be, you can't take someone who calls themselves a good Spider pilot seriously.

[stjobe]

Elwood Blues, on 26 September 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

I play lights and shoot at them in other mechs also. Hit registration is an issue, but not as bad as it used to be. The spider is the only exception. Hit registration on the spider is still pretty bad. Spider pilots die more than the 3L pilots used to when that mech was bugged, but I've seen spiders do some pretty craptastic dodging and survive 6 mechs shooting at them. I'm more than willing to admit when I miss a mech, but seeing a hit connect and seeing your crosshair turn red and then seeing little to no damage on the target is just frustrating. When that problem is resolved, I expect there will be a lot of bad spider pilots that will find out how bad they have been. That isn't to say that I haven't seen good spider pilots, but just like the 3L used to be, you can't take someone who calls themselves a good Spider pilot seriously.

So, what are your thoughts on the stats I posted earlier in the thread that shows that I don't die less in my Spiders than in my Commandos, and in fact my SDR-5K is the 'mech with the worst deaths/match statistic?

And, perhaps more importantly, how does this reconcile with your assertion that hit registration is worse on Spiders than any other 'mech?

[Mehlan]

Quote

you can't take someone who calls themselves a good Spider pilot seriously.

Personaly, I don't anyone who claims to be a good pilot seriously, w/o data being provided to back it up.

[Elwood Blues]

stjobe, on 26 September 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

So, what are your thoughts on the stats I posted earlier in the thread that shows that I don't die less in my Spiders than in my Commandos, and in fact my SDR-5K is the 'mech with the worst deaths/match statistic?

And, perhaps more importantly, how does this reconcile with your assertion that hit registration is worse on Spiders than any other 'mech?

Good question. I only have my own experience to go off of, just like you. I practice my targeting on lights as often as I can. I go out of my way to chase them down in most mechs. If you can lead a fast mech, leading slower mechs is cake. I don't have that many problems with Commandos, Ravens, Jenners, or fast Cicadas. Spiders seem to be the biggest offenders when it comes to dropped damage. I use a lot of ballistics (Gauss, AC20, AC5s). So, have a pretty good idea when you hit. You can see the impact animation and the crosshairs turn red. My ping is generally under 100 (around 80) so it shouldn't be lag since hit detection is server side and we have host state rewind that seems to work fine against other mechs.

There are many better pilots out there than me, but I've enough experience with the game to know when I hit and when I miss. Some times I shoot at spiders and my targeting is just way off and I'm playing like {Scrap}. I don't blame the game for my crappy targeting. But when I took my time, waited for my shot, actually saw the hit, and it don't see the effect on the paperdoll, or much less damage than I should have done, something is wrong. And screw lasers, firing a laser against a Spider is just an exercise in frustration.

[K0M3D14N]

I heard someone was asking about Commando pilots in this thread! Or am I late to the party?