35 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

ShadowbaneX, on 28 September 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

A friend of mine used to run a similar build, only with a 200 Standard and no AMS allowing for 47 SHS. He used to just melt the enemy team.

Mine's using an XL 330 engine. 43 standard heatsinks (or was it 42? Somewhere in there). Pretty high armor except for the legs; no one aims for the legs. The only downfall to it is that Large Lasers are the second slowest firing direct-fire weapon in the game.
(beam time 1 second. Cooldown which does not start until the beam ends, 3.25. Total time: 4.25 seconds.)
(90% of MWO's direct fire weapons: 4 seconds or less to fire again. PPCs? 4 seconds. AC/20? 4 seconds.)

[ShadowbaneX]

Koniving, on 28 September 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

Mine's using an XL 330 engine. 43 standard heatsinks (or was it 42? Somewhere in there). Pretty high armor except for the legs; no one aims for the legs. The only downfall to it is that Large Lasers are the second slowest firing direct-fire weapon in the game.
(beam time 1 second. Cooldown which does not start until the beam ends, 3.25. Total time: 4.25 seconds.)
(90% of MWO's direct fire weapons: 4 seconds or less to fire again. PPCs? 4 seconds. AC/20? 4 seconds.)

Ah, I was wondering where you were getting the tonnage from. It was 42 (6x7 on one of the display monitors in the video). My friend's mech had max armour...and you'd be surprised about the legs. I'm occasionally a little imprecise with fire and if I notice a leg going dark too quickly, well, I've got no problem legging an Atlas if I'm in something lighter...and since it's an Atlas, I'm always in something lighter.

You can manage a Standard 350 with 24 DHS, but that's 10% less efficient than the 47 SHS version. Much faster though. Actually, it's only 3% less efficient than your build...well, no AMS though...but lots more armour on the legs.

[Koniving]

Any of us with experience will be like that.

You'd be surprised, though.

24 DHS
30 base + 10*2 (engine DHS) + 14*1.4 (chassis DHS) = 69.6 + 20% Heat Containment for Master Skills = 83.52
For cooling: 69.6 - 30 base = 39.6 / 10 seconds = 3.96 per second + 15% Cool Run for master skills = 4.554/sec cooling.

42 SHS
30 base + 42 = 72 + 20% = 86.4
72 - 30 base = 42 / 10 seconds = 4.2 per second + 15% = 4.83/sec cooling.

Hm. Mkay 10% might be right.

[shellashock]

Koniving, on 28 September 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

More specific on the topic of my last post:


But on topic I made another wickedly sick Standard heatsink build. Enjoy this epic rush!



Note: Tabletop heat percentages out of 30 without any cooling applied are given to demonstrate how impossible this would be without 10 seconds between each shot.

So what? I run that on my hunchy with NO heatsinks! In all honesty, it is pretty sad that this kind of loadout is possible without melting you. That build should be more like my 5 er ppc hunchy with 10 singles alphaing.

[ShadowbaneX]

Koniving, on 28 September 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

Hm. Mkay 10% might be right.

I was going with the Smurfy numbers, not real math. AS7-RS. 2 ER LL, 2 LL. Standard 200, 47 SHS has a heat efficiency of 64%. Std 350, same weapons, 24 DHS is 54% efficient. Your version with the 330 XL is 57% efficient. Those are just the base numbers. If we use the weaponlab we can factor in cool run and the heat capacity efficiencies.

std200

Spoiler

max dps: 8.47
Sustained dps: 6.18
heat per second: 7.29
cooling efficiency: 73%
heat capacity: 92.4
dissipation: 5.4 heat/sec
approx time to overheat: 00:48 seconds

std 350

Spoiler

max dps: 8.47
Sustained dps: 5.25
heat per second: 7.29
cooling efficiency: 62%
heat capacity: 83.52
dissipation: 4.55 heat/sec
approx time to overheat: 00:30 seconds

XL330:

Spoiler

max dps: 8.47
Sustained dps: 5.51
heat per second: 7.29
cooling efficiency: 65%
heat capacity: 86.4
dissipation: 4.83 heat/sec
approx time to overheat: 00:35 seconds

The 200 is 73% cooling efficiency, the 350 is 62% and the XL330 build is at 65%. Of course, if you wanted to be more brawly you could drop the ERs to LLs and be able to fire for even longer...although, this doesn't factor in Ghost Heat.

[Koniving]

shellashock, on 28 September 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

So what? I run that on my hunchy with NO heatsinks! In all honesty, it is pretty sad that this kind of loadout is possible without melting you. That build should be more like my 5 er ppc hunchy with 10 singles alphaing.

13 or 14 DHS Hunchback here. 5 PPCs. No armor. Enjoy. From when they did 8 heat, but still think about that heat.

Or for the exclusive 30 PPCs in 18 seconds (same vid time skipped further, they had a shorter cooldown time at the time), remember that 30 PPCs at 8 heat each generates 240 heat. No amount of cooling can be done to allow this. Although granted this is with an override.

Actual build is in the video before I drop with the PPCs.

[Koniving]

ShadowbaneX, on 28 September 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

I was going with the Smurfy numbers, not real math. AS7-RS. 2 ER LL, 2 LL. Standard 200, 47 SHS has a heat efficiency of 64%. Std 350, same weapons, 24 DHS is 54% efficient. Your version with the 330 XL is 57% efficient. Those are just the base numbers.

Good work.

Btw, I forgot that the engine size doesn't actually affect the single heatsinks.

Did you know, if your engine isn't a 250 rated engine or higher, you don't have 10 DHS in it? And if you don't, then the threshold equation I gave you earlier is altered to be 9, 8, or lower *2 + the other numbers *1.4? This is what I hate the most about MWO's heat system.

Watch this; For a 10 DHS build with a 250 engine, you get 50 threshold (60 after master -- the MW4's poorly balanced threshold!) The cooling rate is 2.0/sec.

Know that Blackjack? 235 max engine.

Spoiler

Threshold: 30 base + 9*2 (Engine DHS, 225 gets 9, 250 gets 10) + 1*1.4 DHS = 49.4 I don't need to go into cooling but we already know it's inferior.

Know the Locust? 170 max engine

Spoiler

Threshold: 30 base + 6*2 (Engine DHS, 225 gets 9, 250 gets 10) + 4*1.4 DHS = 47.6
Cooling: 1.76/sec.

Versus 10 DHS 250 engine. Threshold: 30 base + 10*2 (Engine DHS, 225 gets 9, 250 gets 10) + 0*1.4 DHS = 50
Cooling: 2.0/sec.

Sucks, doesn't it? I would think if they did get different thresholds, the Locust might get a lower one but at the same time it'd get a lot faster cooling (much smaller mech moving a lot faster, it should in theory be able to cool faster because of that).

It'd be better if they're all the same.

Although, if thresholds were hardset they can then be altered for balancing reasons.

Example: Right now the Victor is in every way superior to the Awesome. What if the Victor had 30 threshold, but the Awesome 8Q (3 PPCs) started out with 38 threshold?

Victor fires 2 PPCs, generates 66.67% heat.
Awesome fires 3 PPCs, generates 78.95% heat instead of shutdown.

That means after the pilot skill Heat Containment is mastered, that Awesome's 38 turns into 45.6. That's just enough to fire 3 ER PPCs while perfectly stationary on a regular map. He'll shutdown on hot maps and be able to move slowly on cold maps.

Thus finally allowing the Awesome to be what everyone believes it is, while the Victor resorts to what FASA has always intended it to do, rely heavily on ballistics, low heat lasers and missiles.

(Btw for those without a calculator, with the 20% Heat Containment pilot skill -- which should be removed in my opinion -- the Victor would go from a 30 threshold to a 36 threshold, allowing it the ability to fire 3 standard PPCs while moving, but that's literally going to require 15 DHS and 10 seconds to cool down from).

Edited by Koniving, 28 September 2013 - 01:29 PM.

[CrashieJ]

this is freaking hilarious, the mass number of Standard Heatsinks is just plain funny (dblHS as a straight Upgrade My @$$). So not only can we raise our Heatcap to ridiculous levels we also get the Wet-Feet bonus

PGI implements Ghostheat to work around Spamming
Players implement Spamming to work around Ghostheat
---
proof that PGI's logic is ridiculously flawed

[ShadowbaneX]

I know what you mean about the locust, but also keep in mind that's just for the way things stand now. Once DX11 comes in and the Netcode is sorted the Locust should be able to support up to a 225. It's not a 250, but it's still much better than the 6 internal heat sinks that the 170 has.

As for the Awesome I think it should get a quirk which allows it to fire up to three PPCs before Ghost Heat kicks in, or some other method of enhancing it's cooling capabilities, but that's just me.

[Koniving]

gavilatius, on 28 September 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

PGI implements Ghostheat to work around Spamming
Players implement Spamming to work around Ghostheat

This should be on a Piranha fish meme.

[GioAvanti]

Koniving, on 27 September 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

Paul never said it was to reduce pinpoint. It was to reduce high alpha. However to actually target high alpha, dealing with the threshold situation would have been the way to cut the root of the problem, thusly removing every issue except the ballistic one.

And how do you solve the ballistic high alpha? Multi-shot variants (they spread damage: In lore single shot variants are RARE, and almost unheard of in some cases. For example there's only one UAC/20 I found in Battletech / Sarna where it's a single shot variant, mounted on the Cauldron Born and there's a book where one of the sub plots is testing the viability of a 203mm UAC/20 from the Cauldron Born on an Atlas. The Atlas FELL ON ITS BACK firing it!), and slower single shot variants. (A Jager with a single shot AC/20 would lose its balance easier than the Atlas did. Now that Raven carrying one? Would rip its own arm off.) We just took care of the ballistic side.

Have some multi-shot variant examples demonstrated in MWO. (Note the Devastator mentioned is actually a UAC/20 and the Chemjet Gun is actually a 4 shot AC/20. The Atlas's Deathgiver 100mm is a 15 shot. The King Crab's Deathgiver 120mm is a 12 shot AC/20. The Hunchback's To--whatever the spelling is, is a 5 shot AC/20 in lore. The twin UAC/20 Hunchback II-C? Both are 6 shots to do 20 damage. Soon as the ghost heat issue with the AC/2s is fixed I can demonstrate other weapons.)

MW:LL has a few AC variants for each AC. One that I got to use fired a shot every 0.4 seconds, and yet the mechs all have 1x armor. It takes forever to kill one. Why? That Ac/5's shots do 1 damage, totaling 5 damage over 2 seconds. MWO's AC/5 fires once every 1 and a half seconds. Neat, huh? The Gauss fires once every 6 seconds and the PPCs once every 7 seconds; minimizes pinpoint damage.

But back on topic, Paul explicitly states over and over again it is not to address pinpoint damage at all. You're thinking of Homeless Bill's idea (which actually is identical to ghost heat, but is ghost accuracy and MUCH more consistent... but ultimately far from ideal).

If you want to address pinpoint without a lot of work? Take a look at these.

First, the first person view.


Next, a visual demonstration of mech movement.


Next, the third person view.


And for it in another person's video as a perfect quicky in 10 seconds or less to summarize the whole thing.

Now take the third person crosshair, both the bounce and the "Armlock" of it (with the armlock optional), and throw it into first person. Pinpoint issue solved. No cone of accuracy, no random chance, no penalty system of any kind. Stand still for pinpoint. Move for being less accurate, but know that if you have a little skill on your own end you can time your shots and fire when the moment is perfect.

Of course, there are much better ways to do it, but that's the one with the least bit of work and the most likely one to occur in MWO in the near future. The better way than that requires completely redoing the core aiming mechanics in MWO by removing convergence entirely.

If you're going to use lore.... How do you explain a jagermech having issues with an ac20... yet an urbanmech not? (I'm talking about the urbie with an ac20)

[Koniving]

GioAvanti, on 28 September 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

If you're going to use lore.... How do you explain a jagermech having issues with an ac20... yet an urbanmech not? (I'm talking about the urbie with an ac20)

Easy. 90% of lore's AC/20s are multi-shot. Crusher Super Heavy Autocannon is a 10 shot (2 damage per shot) AC/20 and 150mm. Most AC/20s are 150mm or less, with Extremely Few exceptions such as the Chemjet Gun (185mm) and I have yet to figure out who (aside from a specific tank) actually has a single shot AC/20 203mm AC/20. Truth be told I haven't found a mech that specifically carries one.

The Cauldron Born has a UAC/20 203mm, but lore-wise it can use it because it's super short, super long, and super wide. Low height, wide profile = very stable. True for tanks, true for cars, true for walking machines such as mechs.

But, I'm not seeing an AC/20 carrying UrbanMech in lore.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Urbanmech It's got an AC/10.

MechCommander 2's videos with them depict their AC/10 as a 3 shot.

The Jagermech would have issues with a single shot 203mm AC/20. Those are ultra rare. Single shot ACs of any sort (aside from AC/2s) are lore-wise rare. There's an AC/2 that takes 10 shots to do 2 damage. There's another AC/20 that takes 100 shots to do 20 damage.

Also, the shorter the barrel and the bigger the shot, the harder the recoil hits.

PPC, AC, and UAC sound effects from MW3.

Edited by Koniving, 28 September 2013 - 06:50 PM.

[shellashock]

Koniving, on 28 September 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

13 or 14 DHS Hunchback here. 5 PPCs. No armor. Enjoy. From when they did 8 heat, but still think about that heat.

Or for the exclusive 30 PPCs in 18 seconds (same vid time skipped further, they had a shorter cooldown time at the time), remember that 30 PPCs at 8 heat each generates 240 heat. No amount of cooling can be done to allow this. Although granted this is with an override.

Actual build is in the video before I drop with the PPCs.

Nice build. One thing though, you can't stuff a 6th ppc in a hunchy. If you use an xl, you don't have the slots. If you use a std, then you don't have the tonnage. Also, try running a 5 er ppc hunchy with singles in training grounds and see how much heat you generate. One shot shutdown and death if you alpha on any map iirc. Really enforces chainfiring if you ask me if we could only make builds like that.


Edit: Wish I could upload a video of it, but can't because of slow computer. Hopefully you would be able to if you are willing. Running this build (HBK-4J) in a real match is suicide.

Edit: Turns out that frozen city and alpine will simply bring you to dark orange internals if you alpha, and cherry red if on forest colony snow. Anything else will kill me without using override. note that this is with doubles. Singles i have not fully tested yet.

Edited by shellashock, 29 September 2013 - 11:53 AM.

[Koniving]

Part of the point of the build and the thread though, is that in past MW games (particularly 3), if you fired 3 PPCs you shutdown. 5 would kill you instantly with clan DHS.

Also, I know you can't fit 6 in the Hunchback, it's why I got five in it.

Edited by Koniving, 29 September 2013 - 12:02 PM.

[shellashock]

In your video, you said at around 6:45 that you could fit in a 6th ppc in if you had an xl engine. You obviously know better now, but that was just was I was referring to.

Trivia Time! Did you know that 5 er ppcs alphaed with 10 singles in a hunchback with override on will kill the mech in about 1 second (on most maps), or less (if on Terra Therma in lava pool)?

Edited by shellashock, 29 September 2013 - 12:24 PM.

[Zordicron]

Multishot AC is the way to go for balance, have been saying so for months now.

In fact, in order to make it customizable, and also to add quirks to chassis, all you need is a max calibre for each chassis. Rather then just divide up all the AC into 5-10 shots, you take a chassis and give it a max AC size. Like say an AC5 for a Jager. If you put an AC10 on it, now it does two shots, an AC20 does 4. Catapult K2: sposed to have MG. Now people put AC40 on it. Well, make it AC2 max. Now an AC20 does 10 shots.

Result: pinpoint mostly gone, chassis each have their own quirks to them in regards to ballistics. Something along these lines could be done for lasers(ERPPC spider I am looking at you) either duration, or maybe a range adjustment, something to allow chassis to stand out and fit into cannon better.

It would be like how the missile hardpoints in MWO work with regards to tubes. You can put a LRM20 in a narc tube= put an AC20 in a MG slot.


Honestly though, all PGI needed to do was look at MW3 weapons designs and the whole game would have turned out better. Really inst much of anything in MW3 that is hands down uber. Even MG and Flamers are respectable when used correctly. Plus, MW3 pulse lasers(drool).