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The Matchmaking Sytem Worries Me


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#21 Wispsy

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 03:15 PM

View PostChavette, on 27 September 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

Look at it my way. What are your chances of convincing the organizer of a tournament that your teams' extra 90 tonnage over the agreed on limit doesn't matter because its reasonably possible to win against it? Lets say he organizer doesn't care about the rules too much and is willing to talk.

They won't give a damn what you want, because everyone who has half a brain knows tonnage is an advantage to a degree, and 90 is a LOT in those circumstances.

90t will give you a class up on ~5 mechs. It will turn 5 mediums into 5 heavies, or 5 heavies into 5 assaults, or any mix of those.

Its basically one whole stage heavier comp. To say it doesn't matter alot, cmon man... cmon.


Now would you rather have 12 Highlanders and Victors or 12 Atlas...

I know which I would prefer in a 12v12 tournament :)

#22 Bartholomew bartholomew

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 03:43 PM

Been part of a four man light that ripped up the battleground and had the opposing team screaming in vain even though we were outweighed by more than that. Have also gone up against an all light team that got out played and rolled because they pushed their hand too soon. 90 tons is not a great difference.

And being outnumbered by cataphracts does not mean a thing. I have ripped up more than that in a stalker missle boat because they were kept at distance by my team. Skill and teamwork has a MAJOR influence on the game.

And I am not an uber pilot. My win/loss is 0.89 and my KDR is 0.57 and climbing steady. So take it in stride and soldier on.

The games ARE getting tighter for the most part, with the rare one off. If you just can't stand it right now, take a few weeks off and it will have changed again by then.

Edited by Bartholomew bartholomew, 27 September 2013 - 03:45 PM.


#23 Kuritaclan

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 03:50 PM

View PostCathy, on 27 September 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

Kind of surprised your lights didn't cap win the game, which is where, in this case, there is a weight imbalance, its not so much that there are 6v1 CTF, but your team had 3 lights while they had none, so your team was more nimble, but not able to take punishment, also the atlas was either a disco, or afk, so you lost another 100 tonnes.


Well you know you won't see what mechs the other side has, until it is over. So to speak, there is no strategie you can reply to if you don't know who you are up against.


View PostCathy, on 27 September 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

This isn't the worse imbalance by far, I've been in games where the weight difference was over 250, as much as I do think the MM still needs work, and it isn't fun if the mis match is to far apart, you'll also find complants about teams being OP because it was full of lights, that the assaults couldn't hit and made that match unfair, if you care to look far enough in these forums, so being light of tonnage isn't allways a disadvantage


And again, i didn't complain about tonnage discrepancy in the manner that a bulk of lights swarming assault mechs and crush them or other maybee unfair setups.

I complain about the Matchmaker and it's obvious disability in matchmaking to set same chassis even out in one team to the opposing so that chassis/variant stacking is avoided and or balanced by the same amount in the opposite team. Because we all know what happens when a stacked up group of chassis clustering together. For example a cluster Ilyas and or JMs are awaiting with massiv AC power in Forest Colony the 1st one who steps out and or into the cave. Or a cluster of catapults (or other LRM boat able Chassis) hit a brawler setup in Alpine Peaks. These are matchups what couldn't happen, because the same Type (i.e. the possibility of Fotm stacking) is balanced at start in the most part.

And no it wouldn't be to predictable, because it also could be a random mode integretated for the last 1/3 of the setup e.g. the last eight players who get droped in the 12 vs. 12. And if there arn't enough players who queue up, i made a proposal that it would be ok to match up same weight classes. The matchmaker can easy be tuned to make randomness happen. But randomness like a 12 man team is matched up with the enemy team which have half of the setup "the same Battlemech" sux. Because clustering is a normal prozess and desired in pug's, with the standard chat phrase: "Stay together bla bla".

If the setups are balanced, then it comes down to tactic and skill - and this is what we want, or maybee only me. To measuring our skills against each other and not been ****** up by a disadvantage due to the setup. Like a cluster of overheating laser users (caused by chassis/variants like an awsome, hbk 4p) get ruled over by AC/Gauss users in heat heavy maps like Terra Therma and the opposit at frozen maps. As long as we can't chose the map we drope and fix the loadout for this situation, than it needs a equality in the system of drops to eaven out disadvantages at both teams. Otherwise the matchmaker have to check the loadouts for special maps to fit evenly players in battlemechs, what ends up that some maps won't be played that much, because the current meta doesn't support Energy and Missiles or Ballistics weapons and produces FOTMs.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 28 September 2013 - 12:36 AM.


#24 WarZ

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 08:29 PM

Also on the imbalance ->

So for every mech on that team you faced a mech a tonnage rating or better bigger. So not only are you carrying that little bit less weapons, you have to burn through that little bit more armor to reduce the enemy team. It is a significant imbalance, though not massive. Stating that there is no issue at all, is not in the least understanding game mechanics.

The statement about tonnage not mattering, stem from the idea of pilot skill and what your team can do to out play the enemy team. So if you out play them, well you overcame the disadvantage. However...

Elo is supposed to create a scenario where the teams have an equal chance of out playing each other correct ? So to some degree elo is equalizing the field of player skill and possible ability / tactics.

Now if you swing back to tonnage if the "skill" end of it is supposedly equalized...now you have imbalance.

Of course all kinds of things can happen in a match and nothing is ever set in stone. Thats good btw. However you cant count on that as a pure factor in saying tonnage wont matter. Because even though your team might be out gunned and use superior tactics / skill to pull it off...you just as easily will be on a team that is out gunned and used terrible tactics / skill and failed even harder than expected.

Bottom line -> The tonnage, class, AND loadout/stats of mechs are extremely important. Ignoring these leads to the many messes we see.

The OP makes excellent points.

Sadly the current iterations of elo and MM just feel horrible most of the time.

#25 Kuritaclan

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 02:53 AM

View PostWarZ, on 27 September 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

The OP makes excellent points.

Sadly the current iterations of elo and MM just feel horrible most of the time.



Thx,

to break it down.

If you balance around evenly matched ELO of players. The player need to know, what the enemy choose and could generate his choice to counter it. Out of this skill and strategy it would form a meta to counter certain Setups.

,and or

You have a kind of premaid Meta (everybody have the same basic model) and have to make the best out of it.

,but as it is now it suxx

You are droped in a open space of unknown Setup on unknown conditions not outweighted to your loadout with what i see a range of dumb to good players skillwise tied up in 12 man group.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 28 September 2013 - 02:53 AM.


#26 OneEyed Jack

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 05:46 AM

Tell me again why you should always know exactly what you'll be facing?

"Oh, I say good chap, I hear we'll be attempting to kill each other today. Here's my TO&E so that you can plan accordingly. Cheerio!"

:D

#27 Devil Fox

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 06:44 PM

View PostOneEyed Jack, on 28 September 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

Tell me again why you should always know exactly what you'll be facing?

"Oh, I say good chap, I hear we'll be attempting to kill each other today. Here's my TO&E so that you can plan accordingly. Cheerio!"

:)


I believe that might be how CW attacking held planets might become. Afterall the unit has to nominate the players that will be rostered to garrison the planet, you'll most likely know what they prefer to pilot or what they've been see non the field with. Afterall Clan bidding might become a system in itself...

Typically even the battletech verse you knew what the defender unit was likely to be (sometimes info was wrong or additional support had reached planetside before you) but based on that you knew their likely make-up.

#28 FactorlanP

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 06:47 PM

I think there should simply be a bonus XP and C-Bill modifier for a team that is out weighed by X percentage or more... (X to be determined). Maybe the modifier should be directly tied to the percentage of weight they are out tonned...

So, a team with a 10% weight disadvantage get a 10% bump on their XP and C-Bills earned, win or lose.

The under dogs get a little bit better reward for taking on a challenge.

Edited by FactorlanP, 28 September 2013 - 06:49 PM.


#29 Kuritaclan

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 09:10 PM

View PostApostal, on 28 September 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

I believe that might be how CW attacking held planets might become. Afterall the unit has to nominate the players that will be rostered to garrison the planet, you'll most likely know what they prefer to pilot or what they've been see non the field with. Afterall Clan bidding might become a system in itself...

Typically even the battletech verse you knew what the defender unit was likely to be (sometimes info was wrong or additional support had reached planetside before you) but based on that you knew their likely make-up.


Good point. You are right sir. In CW we might see something like that. But the "advantage" you know what your enemy Battlemechs are, is even out by your knowledge about the "terrain and conditions" as a defender - The defender could use a loadout specified to the planet, while the Offender wouldn't have this advantage.

But beside CW, i refer to the matchmaker in general and as the only source what setup two teams with each other "to determ the skill over all". If PGI/IGP wan't this game at this stage to be competitive, it needs a competitive balance. Applyed to Check, there are equal chess pieces on both sides. A match what supposed to show who has the better skill isn't startet with missing knight or queen. - If the supposed matchmaker works correct and above teams have an average even ELO. But i think we all see that this isn't the case. So we need a methode what equals the pieces and elo in the best case.

And after this luck can decide who have the upper hand in the worst case.


View PostFactorlanP, on 28 September 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

I think there should simply be a bonus XP and C-Bill modifier for a team that is out weighed by X percentage or more... (X to be determined). Maybe the modifier should be directly tied to the percentage of weight they are out tonned...

So, a team with a 10% weight disadvantage get a 10% bump on their XP and C-Bills earned, win or lose.

The under dogs get a little bit better reward for taking on a challenge.


We don't need a consolation, after doing a good job with some luck to bypass a failed matchmaker. We want a good matchmaker, and your proposal could be a bonus/gimick for doing very well against a team what have advantages on paper.

#30 Wispsy

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 03:40 AM

View PostKuritaclan, on 28 September 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:


Good point. You are right sir. In CW we might see something like that. But the "advantage" you know what your enemy Battlemechs are, is even out by your knowledge about the "terrain and conditions" as a defender - The defender could use a loadout specified to the planet, while the Offender wouldn't have this advantage.

But beside CW, i refer to the matchmaker in general and as the only source what setup two teams with each other "to determ the skill over all". If PGI/IGP wan't this game at this stage to be competitive, it needs a competitive balance. Applyed to Check, there are equal chess pieces on both sides. A match what supposed to show who has the better skill isn't startet with missing knight or queen. - If the supposed matchmaker works correct and above teams have an average even ELO. But i think we all see that this isn't the case. So we need a methode what equals the pieces and elo in the best case.

And after this luck can decide who have the upper hand in the worst case.




We don't need a consolation, after doing a good job with some luck to bypass a failed matchmaker. We want a good matchmaker, and your proposal could be a bonus/gimick for doing very well against a team what have advantages on paper.



I do not understand why you are a Steiner.

#31 Kuritaclan

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 04:24 PM

View PostWispsy, on 29 September 2013 - 03:40 AM, said:



I do not understand why you are a Steiner.

It's a sidenote, but I have asylum. B)

#32 Deathlike

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 04:44 PM

Posted Image

As long as I keep seeing matchups like this, it's broken.

#33 Sagamore

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 11:17 PM

The real problem is premades breaking the matchmaker. I played a group of 4 cheeselander 733Cs several times today. A whole lance of assault mechs really throws off the matchmaker. It is pretty much impossible to balance the weight. Same goes for entire lances of light mechs which pop up once in a while.

I recall a dev post about restricting premades to certain tonnage ranges but that is probably UI 2.0 dependant. Once this is implemented I hope to see fewer BS matches.

#34 Hecthelion

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 03:51 PM

RED => 865 t (and 3 ecm)
BLUE => 735 t
Difference => 130 t (thx elo)
a solution simple : swap red charlie and blue bravo => it gives only 30 t difference


Posted Image

Edited by Hecthelion, 12 December 2013 - 04:12 PM.






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