24 replies to this topic

[CaveMan]

So I had an idea just pop into my head concerning lasers.

Normally, beam weapons in BattleTech are subject to the same accuracy restrictions as other weapons, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense, honestly, because as we all know the laser always hits what you point it at (disregarding things like atmospheric refraction which are only an issue at VERY long ranges, greater than what combat occurs at). There are ways to rationalize this, but they all require considerable mental gymnastics to make it work.

So, what if we let beam weapons always hit?

Well obviously if you made that change and did nothing to balance it, they'd be grossly overpowered, but there may be a solution: variable damage. The beam might physically intersect the target but there are a lot of factors that can prevent it from doing its full damage (incidence angle, reflectivity of the target, intervening smoke/dust, target moving before the beam is fully discharged, bloom from the target's armor vaporizing interrupting the beam, etc.). So what I'm proposing is an alternate rule that has the player roll for the laser's damage instead of whether or not it hits.

It would work as follows:

If the attack is permissible (line of sight to target, weapon can be fired), then a laser or PPC automatically hits its intended target. Roll 2d6 and subtract the pilot's gunnery skill. Also subtract 2 for each range category beyond short (-2 for medium, -4 for long, and so on) and 1 for each hex inside minimum range. The result is the weapon's damage for that attack (damage cannot be reduced below 0). Roll location and criticals normally.

For small lasers, subtract 2 from the damage. For large lasers and standard PPCs, add 2. Heavy and Clan PPCs add 5 instead. Heavy lasers add 4 on top of the size modifiers (thus a net +2 for heavy small, +4 for heavy medium, +6 for heavy large). Snubnose PPCs and VSP lasers add 2 to damage, but have doubled range penalties.

For pulse lasers, roll 3 dice and use the 2 highest. Heavy lasers do the opposite, roll 3 dice and use the 2 lowest.

Thus, a large laser for a pilot with 4 gunnery does 2d6-2 damage at short range, 2d6-4 at medium and 2d6-6 at long range.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

EDIT: I just realized that packs of small lasers could be extremely overpowered with an elite pilot. Therefore the damage should be capped at some fixed amount (the weapon's normal maximum damage, most likely).

Edited by CaveMan, 15 June 2012 - 12:47 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

You are applying the RPG - damage rolls for lasers. I think there is no need to limit it on laser weapons only.

if you really a ready for all the micromanagment: considering the different armor layers of a battlemech - ballistic- reflective - ballistic - reflective

[Mildman]

Hmmm, just because you point a gun at someone, there's no guarantee they will still be there when you pull the trigger.

High powered rifles travel fast enough that you could make the same argument, they don't automatically hit either.

I think a 'to hit' roll demonstrates that every single variable cannot be accounted for by a mechwarrior in this case to make his targetting decisions 100% flawless.

I still believe in a hit roll for lasers.

[SiriusBeef]

If you let beam weapons always hit why would you ever take anything else? And then how do you deal with pulse lasers. I would never agree to play in a house where this was the rule...

[CaveMan]

Mildman, on 15 June 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

Hmmm, just because you point a gun at someone, there's no guarantee they will still be there when you pull the trigger.

High powered rifles travel fast enough that you could make the same argument, they don't automatically hit either.

I think a 'to hit' roll demonstrates that every single variable cannot be accounted for by a mechwarrior in this case to make his targetting decisions 100% flawless.

I still believe in a hit roll for lasers.

You can't compare lasers to rifles. The travel time for a laser to the target at BT ranges is on the order of one or two ten-millionths of a second. In order to completely fail to hit the target with a laser, the pilot would have to be intentionally not aiming at it. I'm pretty sure that BattleTech assumes the crew is not incompetent to do their job. Besides, these things are aimed by the 'Mech's computer. Once you lock onto the target that laser is going to be pointed at the target until you pick a different one. The pilot's job becomes shooting at the right time to maximize the effect on the target

SiriusBeef, on 15 June 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

If you let beam weapons always hit why would you ever take anything else? And then how do you deal with pulse lasers. I would never agree to play in a house where this was the rule...

T
o reiterate: pulse lasers roll 3 dice instead of 2 and use the two best results. That skews the probability curve in favor of being more effective, without increasing maximum damage.

Second, the reason of "why you'd pick anything else" should be obvious. With this rule you've got a 50% chance of doing below-average damage, and in some cases the damage can be reduced to zero. The only weapon that does guaranteed damage with an average pilot is a large heavy laser, and the minimum damage is still 1.

Let's compare the large laser and the AC/10. Average pilots (4 gunnery), short range (5 hexes), attacker standing still, target has a +2 movement modifier (ran 5 hexes or jumped 3).

To-hit for the AC/10 is therefore 6 (4 + 2). That's a 72% chance of a hit that does 10 damage. Put another way, your average damage over 100 rolls would be 7.2. There is a 28% chance of the attack being ineffective.

The large laser always hits, but its damage is 2d6-2. On a roll of 2 the laser does no damage. Maximum damage is 10 (only if you roll boxcars). On an average roll (7), damage is 5. Your average damage over 100 rolls is also 5. So on average the AC/10 does more damage and the laser only equals the AC in damage 1/36 of the time.

When we extend this comparison to long range, the AC/10's to-hit increases to 10 (4+4+2). That's a 16.7% chance of hitting, or an average damage of 1.67.
For the laser, damage at long range becomes 2d6-6. On a 6 or less, the laser does no damage. So you've only got about a 58% chance of doing any damage at all. Better than the autocannon? Maybe, maybe not: the laser only does 1 damage on an average roll (7). Maximum damage is just 6. And average damage is a mere 1.58, less than the autocannon's 1.67.

Yes, the rule has some problems with elite pilots as it's presently formulated. If you routinely have a lot of 0/0 pilots in your games, you're probably better off not using this one.

[CPT Helldog]

I like this idea. I will have to use it in the campaigns that I am in. I think that it will reduce the overpowered feeling of some mechs and make the lighter autocannons useful again. Well maybe not the A/C-2 unless one gets special ammo.

[Captain Fabulous]

This is presuming that you have whatever lasers perfectly calibrated to your sights, that all targeting systems are functioning normally, and that you didn't flinch at all when you fired.

I still believe in a to-hit roll for lasers. [2]

[Jimmy the Tulip]

I've often thought about using an alternate house rule for lasers which sees them have no maximum range. They fire in a straight line and only stop when the either hit an object or reach the edge of the map. The power of the beam dissipates over the range bands until, beyond maximum range it does just 1 damage. Pulse lasers still have the +2 hit bonus, ER's do the damage over greater range. Heavy lasers still pack a whallop until max range.

A missed hit fires through the target hex and continues on that trajectory until it hits an object behind (with a successful to hit roll unless it's something like a hill or woods). To hit modifier for long range is in constant effect once beyond max range.

Loke I said, I've thought about it but never tried it so it might be **** in terms of game play. If anyone wants to try it out, feel free.

[CaveMan]

Captain Fabulous, on 15 June 2012 - 09:25 PM, said:

This is presuming that you have whatever lasers perfectly calibrated to your sights, that all targeting systems are functioning normally, and that you didn't flinch at all when you fired.

I still believe in a to-hit roll for lasers. [2]

Why wouldn't you presume the mech was working normally? You wouldn't trust your life to an oxygen scrubber that wasn't working right, why on earth would you go into battle with lasers that were cockeyed?

[Captain Fabulous]

CaveMan, on 16 June 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

Why wouldn't you presume the mech was working normally? You wouldn't trust your life to an oxygen scrubber that wasn't working right, why on earth would you go into battle with lasers that were cockeyed?

While it may be that that they're working properly, keep in mind you're running around at 56+ km/h shooting at something else that's also running at 56+ km/h, might be flying through the air at 20m above you. Each round in Battletech is meant to account for mere seconds in the actual battle, so there's a lot of room for error when you're shooting.

[TheDarkOne]

I like this idea because if you would have an unlimited amount of energy and no particles in the way of the laser, the laser would then travel at light speed (because after all, you're just firing a bundle of light) and keep going on forever.

On the battlefield you actually do have particles blocking the way of your laser and thus weakening it. If you have a correctly calibrated 'aim-computer' and nothing that is dense enough to stop the laser between you and the target then your laser would surely hit the target. This is only if you're assuming that the Actuators in a mech can't approach the speed of light to be able to jump out of the way of the laser before the aim-computer of it's opponent has calculated where to lock on to the target.
To top it all off, I think a mech has been thoroughly tested and calibrated before you go out on the battlefield and risk your life. So that means that the computer won't make any errors unless you had some incompetent programmers programming it.

And, please. Correct me if I'm wrong

[Skylarr]

You can have many things that can block the beam (dust, other Mechs, Buildings, Terrain, Trees). You cannot say that a Mechs computer always locks onto it target and never unlocks. Then you can say it has the ability to lock ont multiple targets. That Technology level was never achieved, or, it has been lost. What do you do when a friendly mech cuts int your path. e will take damage as well.

From what I remember about the M1 Abram the Commander find the target and send the info to the gunner. the the commander finds another target and send that info to the gunner while the gunner is still firing at the first target. Te computer can hold only a couple targets. This is only a computer anda laser range finder. the gun does not lock on and fire by itself. Take a laser pointer and your dog. Now point that laser pointer at him and chase him. They are trying to prevent collateral damage. Also a laser always on generates heat.

I love "House Rules" that change major items in the game. BattleTech has been around since 1984. That is almost 30 years. It has had teams of developers who did their best to keep the game balanced. It have been play tested by over a hundred thousand player, this includes Cons, and you always find players who want to change major rules. I do not minor "House Rules". Because, they only change something that seams it does not work. I have been playing with my friends for like 18 years now. We meet twice to three times a month at 12 hour clips. We have created "House Rule". To tell you the truth everyone has been changed back.

Currently our biggest gripe in the Out Of Mech Combat system. BattleTech should take on the ShadowRun fighting system, Just leave out the Magic stuff.

Edited by Skylarr, 17 June 2012 - 07:13 AM.

[TheDarkOne]

And that is exactly what I said that on the battlefield you actually have particles. My first sentence was to prove that a laser does go on but when it hits particles it will be weakened. When it hits something dense enough, it will stop. I also wasn't saying that a mech's computer always locks on but I'm assuming that when it does it will stay locked on the target if under the right conditions, no? That's why I think that a laser should always hit if properly locked on. If you throw a basketball at a ring and let's say, you're a beginner. Then you have a chance of scoring, if you train to a professional level (Battletech: a better computer) you will have a much higher chance of scoring.

[Skylarr]

Yes if a target is immobile that will work.

But now lets get a seasoned professional basketball player and have the hoop moving. How many times will he get it in.

You want the computer to be able "Lock On" and does not release until you say so. That Tech level is not there. You want the laser to be always on. What happens when a friendly mech crosses your path. It is a battlefield. You may not be able to tell your lance mate that your have your lasers "Locked On". The engineers will need to take into account that there may be 8v8 or 12v12 fighting in a cramp terrain. The original designers were trying to make Battlemechs as cheep as possible. They could not put in items to cover every combat situation.

Next you will track every shot that misses and see were it land. maybe it hit an enemy or friendly behind the target Mech. Maybe even a building or started a fire. Now your slowing the game down and player will loose interest.

[Skylarr]

Yes the game does not always make sense. But, it is balanced. When you play TT Battle reenactment of past wars they do not take into account collateral damage. The game Harpoon, The TT game is used at the Naval Academy, does not have collateral Damage.

[Sarge992]

This is my first post so bear with me....

I have to agree with the guys on the topic that a laser will always hit what you point it at after all, we've all played with lasers and not once did it not hit what you were pointing at. Plus, current targeting systems can track and hit targets with near perfect accuracy (Main battle tanks, laser guidance etc)

What I would suggest is a simple idea to scale damage. Distance. All lasers lose a degree of strength over a distance so, your ideal long range sniping weapon gets more useless the further away you are. So, more powerful lasers are built to retain the necesarry strength and so on but, the effects of overheating, cooldown times etc all come into play when deciding between lasers and your projectile weapons.

And dont forget this aswell, lasers arent the ultimate authority on the battlefield. On open terrains where distance is your friend you have the advantage of a long accurate hard hitting weapon but, close that distance to lets say 200-250 meters? Then suddenly your A/C becomes your friend. No system overheating. Hard Hitting. No recharge just old school slug power.

So to conclude, it's going to coome down to what you want and how you play. Are you going to hit far and hard with lasers? Or are you getting up close and personal with A/C's? As for me, I like the old school A/C. Mech warrior 4:mercs showed how lasers can dominate on the open terrain and it quickly turned into a long range sniping game. Reduce the lasers effectiveness over long distances and aggrevate the overheating and cool down aspects of the lasers in order to balance it out.

Physics is on the lasers side on the accuracy debate I'm afraid, it will hit what you point it at. And it WILL miss if you dont point it at your target.

[Incunabulum]

You can try a house rule that I used way back in the day when I still played TT.

All energy weapons are -1 to hit (cumulative with their normal to hit bonus) ie laser are Heavy lasers are +0, lasers and PPC's -1, and Pulse lasers are -3 in total (if I remember the PnP accuracy rules for Heavy and Pulse they are +1 and -2 normally).

Balanced against energy weapons losing 1/4 (rounded down, min 0) of their damage for every range band after the first. ie an IS Large Laser does 8/6/5/4 damage out to ultra range.

Energy weapons hit more consistently at range than autocannons but don't do as much damage.

[409]

I know the BT answer, which is the tech to maintain the systems is no longer available . You take the same scenario then factor in the nero helment that hasn't be repaired correctly in 200 years the battle computer has the same problems the legs the arms the chest the feet. and that doesn't include the electrical systems. These Mechs are not show room fresh they are old and have been repaired so many times they are not even the same Mechs any more. The Star League tech was only limited by the curvature on the earth, yes you could engage a tgt at a 1000 miles and expect to hit is if it wasn't protected by counter-measures, ie. chaff, aerosoles,and electronic jamming . But that tech is gone. On the other side it is your game and you can play it any way you want by any any rules you choose.

[Captain Fabulous]

On the "unlimited distance" scenario, consider this:

How many of you have ever played with one of these?


"Why Captain," you might ask, "what is the relation between a child's toy and a laser Hell-bent on destroying machines of death?"

Well despite the fact that they are both terribly fun to play with, when you shoot an Airzooka, it fires a wave: a disruption of the air particles that, as the bump into the stationary particles in front of the wave, get knocked and propelled forward. You have probably noticed that after a while, the kinetic energy is lost due to friction, Newton's laws, outside interference, what have you. The long story short being that after a certain point in time, the "wave" has lost its energy.

Now consider the scale at which you're fighting other mechs: Traditionally, most combat is between 30-110 meters for your usual barrage of medium/large lasers. Weapons manufacturers have more pressing matters than to put the most high-tech, efficient equipment into that medium laser you're buying. That matter being: profit. They want to rake in as much dough as they can. So they build a laser designed to strip 5 armor points, rate it, and BAM-O, the laser loses effectiveness after around 90 meters. And there's your medium laser.

Naturally they could have put in the parts to extend that range (see ER meds), but the tech isn't there at this era and neither is the profit.

There are probably some lurking variables in the builds as well, but that's how I see it. If it had been my way, all lasers would have followed the pattern of the Snub-nose PPC and lose power after each range band (again, the Airzooka principle).


GOING BACK TO THE TO-HIT ROLL THING:
There are systems in Battletech in place that allow for "lock-ons" of beam weapons. They're lostech and I don't remember what they are. But the fact is that this is a modern dark age, essentially. Your "lock-on" system is how steady you can hold the crosshairs when you're shooting. This is why we still have gunnery and piloting. This is why (unless you have Artemis) you don't always hit with all your missiles. I repeat what I said before:

Captain Fabulous, on 17 June 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

While it may be that that they're working properly, keep in mind you're running around at 56+ km/h shooting at something else that's also running at 56+ km/h, might be flying through the air at 20m above you.

Thank you if you bothered reading what may or may not end up as a wall-of-text. Have a nice night.

[SocketWrench]

Fortunately we have all these pretty sweet simulations for the Battletech universe in the Mechwarrior series. I can honestly say that I did not hit with all my lasers 100% of the time and I doubt any of you can either.

The fact is there is no "lock-on" mechanism as far as the BT universe is concerned except in the case of Streak weaponry. And it is assumed that you still have to work to establish the lock with Streak weaponry too, which requires a to-hit roll.

If you were going to make this change, you would have to implement something similar to the Streak mechanism, where you still have to roll to hit to ensure that you are able to establish a lock on your target. If you are unable to establish a lock, the weapon doesn't fire, if you are able to it does. Of course this makes heat management a bit more tricky.

You'd still want to do some sort of diminishing damage though simply to balance them out.