Jump to content

Core Explosions, Splash Damage And Mech "balance"


37 replies to this topic

#1 Walks_In_Circles

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 102 posts
  • LocationOregon

Posted 28 September 2013 - 07:07 AM

Hello everyone,

I have a few notes here, please feel free to read; They're good ones I assure you.

Explosion Note: One thing that surprised me When I started playing was the lack of core explosions. It also feels like you're shooting an empty husk when you "core" a mech and it simply falls over backwards. Where is the spectacular fireworks? I feel the game lacks the sense that essentially we are riding on giant nuclear reactors and no exothermic release when they go critical. A little lack for luster.

Splash Damage Note: Which brings me to my second point; where has the splash damage gone? I think it is important to remember that most of our guns explode is some way. In the same way that missiles and energy weapons heat your mech these elements should also deal damage or heat you if you get too close. now those two specific examples may be incorporated into the game, however I can tell you that core breeches and tactical suicide runs are not. I miss the days when a heavily damaged Flea could run up to a group of mechs and have everyone scatter. I understand that this could be an issue to "balance" but it also gives an incentive not to group too close together.

Mech Balence Note: or should I call it Mech physics. Does anyone else miss the days of wielding dual LBX 20 cannons and knocking mechs right off their feet? I do. I also miss calculating the perfect landing trajectory with my jump jets to land on the head of an enemy causing critical damage to their cockpit. True this maneuver would cause you rinse across the ground like a pair of boiled eggs, but it was worth it :D. It troubles me that MWO has no "falling" feature where the mech falls over and gets back up again. I

Bonus Note: It's also related, but somewhat separate. I remember the days of MW3 in it's rough and buggy glory, and the simplest feature of being able to shoot off legs. I know this feature appeared in other games as well but I feel that MW3 did it the best. Even in the TT legging was a thing, however it did not mean you were out of the fight.

I truly miss these mechanics and feel this game suffers for not having them.

What is your opinion?

Do some of these attributes exist?

Edited for grammar.

Edited by Hrothmar, 28 September 2013 - 02:19 PM.


#2 Vassago Rain

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bridesmaid
  • Bridesmaid
  • 14,396 posts
  • LocationExodus fleet, HMS Kong Circumflex accent

Posted 28 September 2013 - 08:23 AM

They don't explode, and when they do, it's more like a boiler explosion than anything else. Fusion isn't nuclear,

#3 Vassago Rain

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bridesmaid
  • Bridesmaid
  • 14,396 posts
  • LocationExodus fleet, HMS Kong Circumflex accent

Posted 28 September 2013 - 08:24 AM

Also, we had that whole knockdown/stun thing. It was awful.

Here:

Look how much fun it is to stunlock enemies for 10 seconds.

#4 MuonNeutrino

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 478 posts
  • LocationPlanet Earth, Sol System, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster

Posted 28 September 2013 - 08:56 AM

All of the things you mention are things that have been considered at one time or another, but are not in the game for a variety of reasons. My own personal opinions on them are as follows.

Dead mechs exploding. This is commonly known as 'Stackpoling' after the battletech author who was fond of having this happen in his books, and it's pretty universally regarded as dumb. There are two main reasons for this - one realism-based, and one gameplay-based.

First, the idea that mech reactors should explode makes no sense from a physical standpoint. Just because it has the word 'nuclear' in it, or even the words 'nuclear reactor', does *not* make it a potential bomb just waiting to go off! These are nuclear *fusion* reactors, and that means a reactor breach is going to be a fizzle at best. *Fusion* reactions are not the same as the fission reactions that power modern reactors, and are inherently incapable of the sort of runaway self-sustaining reaction that would be required to make them explode.

Fissionable materials *want* to fission - they do it naturally all by themselves (radioactivity), and when concentrated into a reactor require elaborate safety features to prevent runaway reactions and the associated releases of energy and radioactivity (although it's important to note that even fission reactors are incapable of *exploding* - the worst you're going to get is a meltdown, with potential ancillary purely chemical explosive byproducts like hydrogen or steam explosions).

Fusable materials, on the other hand, have to be *forced* to fuse, and they do so *very* reluctantly. It takes the compressive gravitational force of an *entire star's* worth of mass to induce hydrogen fusion naturally, and even our best efforts here on earth can only produce fleeting instants of fusion reactions during fusion experiments or the explosion of a thermonuclear bomb. As well, fusion is an inherently self-limiting process - you have to force the fusion fuel together *extremely* tightly to cause fusion, and as soon as you do so you release energy, heat the fuel, and increase its pressure, either causing the fuel to expand and cease fusing or requiring you to further increase your confining force.

A sustained fusion reaction in a hypothetical fusion reactor is going to be an *extraordinarily* delicate process, and any physical damage to the reactor is simply going to cause the reaction to cease. Even if you literally blast the reactor in half, all you're going to get is a fairly small release of thermal energy from the relatively small amount of hot fusing plasma currently contained in the reaction chamber. Said plasma *will* likely contain enough thermal energy to superheat the air around it and cause a visible explosion that'd blow some parts off the victim and make a bang or two, but there's nowhere near enough energy there to cause the sorts of kabooms that people who advocate stackpoling reactors are envisioning, and certainly not enough to result in physical damage to nearby mechs.

The second reason why this would be bad is that exploding mechs are an incredibly horrible idea from a gameplay point of view. This was easily one of the worst parts of MW4's gameplay, in my opinion, because it resulted in the absurd situation where an almost-dead enemy mech was significantly more dangerous to you than a perfectly intact one. You ended up with the ludicrous scenario where you had to *run away* from almost-destroyed enemies in fear that they would blow up next to you. As you note, it also encourages degenerate gameplay strategies like *intentionally* setting out to commit suicide. You might miss those days, but I sure as hell don't. That's an incredibly stupid gameplay mechanic, and it should *not* be a viable tactic.

Especially given how MWO's gameplay *already* massively incentivises sniping and discourages brawling, I hardly think we ought to be adding yet *further* elements to penalize those who actually dare to try and fight up close. This also covers weapon splash damage from firing while too close to an enemy mech. In addition to making no sense from a physical standpoint (protecting from that sort of incidental damage is one of the entire *points* of putting armor on something in the first place!), it further penalizes brawlers while doing nothing to the already far too numerous and powerful snipers.

Mechs falling over. This was actually in the game at one point - mechs could knock each other over by running into each other. It was horrifically buggy and glitchy, however, as well as not especially balanced, and was removed before open beta started. It's something they have said they will reintroduce in a fixed form at some point, but they haven't talked about it in a while and there's no ETA. You won't get any arguments from me on the desirability of this feature, though - I am also looking forward to it.

Legging. This may have been in MW3, but it's not in this game, and I for one think that is a *very* good thing. It is, quite simply, an absolutely horrible mechanic from a gameplay and balance standpoint. It just makes mechs *far* too easy to kill - it'd be like our current CT coring pinpoint problem, but on steroids.

As well, it doesn't match the effects of losing a leg in the original tabletop game - a mech that lost a leg automatically fell over, but it could struggle back to its remaining foot in subsequent turns, and even drag itself around the board one hex at a time. Heck, in the tabletop even a mech with *both* legs missing wasn't out of the game and could still fire from a prone position.

I do agree in a very limited sense that it *would* be satisfying from an aesthetic point of view to be able to blow a leg off an enemy battlemech and see it go flying. However, the gameplay consequences of allowing such a thing are simply far, far too catastrophic to put it into the game.

#5 Walks_In_Circles

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 102 posts
  • LocationOregon

Posted 28 September 2013 - 10:00 AM

I concede to your many points.

The thermal release you mention however is exactly what I mean. If you're too close, then extra heat. You're explanation of fission vs fusion is both informative and hints on personal knowledge of said area. Thank you for run down.

#6 JohnnyWayne

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 1,629 posts

Posted 28 September 2013 - 10:07 AM

Didn't read everything but: Fusion Engines do not explode. They are not nuclear in the common matter, just to make this clear. They might melt if something is happening, but nothing else. But fireworks: I agree there should be plasma if you core a mech.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 28 September 2013 - 10:10 AM.


#7 Star Colonel Mustard Kerensky

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 488 posts
  • LocationNarnia

Posted 28 September 2013 - 10:47 AM

There used to be a sound for ammo cooking off in a mech, I miss that.

#8 JohnnyWayne

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 1,629 posts

Posted 28 September 2013 - 11:23 AM

Its also quite a lag between the damage and the cookoff. But its always good for a laugh.^^

#9 CrashieJ

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,435 posts
  • LocationGalatea (Mercenary's Star)

Posted 28 September 2013 - 11:25 AM

*If an enemy mech dies by an engine shot, the mech should not explode, but it should exhibit a heatspike based on the engine size

IE
-if an enemy Atlas dies with an STD 300, all mechs in the immediate vicinity see their heat rise by 15%
-If an enemy Atlas dies with an XL 300, all mechs in the vicinity see their heat spike by 20%

*any ammo cooked off will do splash damage and AOE based on rating and ammo-count IF C.A.S.E. IS NOT INSTALLED IN THE AREA

IE
-AC5 ammo will have a larger AOE than AC20 ammo in an event of an explosion
-AC20 ammo will do more damage within the AOE in an event of an explosion
-AC20 with CASE will not do any damage in the AOE

#10 80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Veteran Founder
  • Veteran Founder
  • 3,994 posts
  • LocationThe Island

Posted 28 September 2013 - 12:23 PM

Vote no for stackpoles!

Vote yes for catastrophic ammo 'splosions!

#11 MuonNeutrino

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 478 posts
  • LocationPlanet Earth, Sol System, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster

Posted 28 September 2013 - 01:43 PM

View PostHrothmar, on 28 September 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

The thermal release you mention however is exactly what I mean. If you're too close, then extra heat.


View Postgavilatius, on 28 September 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:


*If an enemy mech dies by an engine shot, the mech should not explode, but it should exhibit a heatspike based on the engine size


I could, perhaps, see a small heat spike on mechs that are close enough to a mech that dies by engine destruction. There would probably be a % chance for it to happen, and a heat spike by engine rating. The spike and radius should both be small, however. Really what I want is a bit more visual fireworks when a mech blows. There *should* be more sparks and flame, even if damage is a bad idea.

Quote

*any ammo cooked off will do splash damage and AOE based on rating and ammo-count IF C.A.S.E. IS NOT INSTALLED IN THE AREA


This, on the other hand, is not a very good idea in my opinion. Gameplay-wise it brings back the same problem of a dead mech being more dangerous than a live one and penalizing brawlers for doing their job, but it also doesn't make sense from a physical point of view.

Ammunition exploding does *not* inflict anywhere near the same sort of damage that ammunition properly fired from its weapon does. Literally it's just the propellant/explosive charges cooking off, and the only reason it does much of any damage to the victim is that they're exploding *inside* the mech. Another mech nearby should get nothing more than a mild shaking, if that, because he's not being hit by anything other than the blast wave and perhaps some shrapnel, and armor is designed to resist exactly this sort of proximity damage.

#12 keith

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 1,272 posts

Posted 28 September 2013 - 01:46 PM

stackpoling made combat more intersting in MW4 of u ask me. will make it even more intresting in here. so u are about to die (assume knock donws are in) run into a mech knock them down get a team mate to blow u up. would be a legit tatic to help dam the enemy. would spread them out. would inscrease tatics in the game. if a mech was dieing would mean u would not be humping them. but hey 90% of the ppl are TT puriest here. stackpoling makes teh game have more tatics u can pull off in brawling.

#13 CrashieJ

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,435 posts
  • LocationGalatea (Mercenary's Star)

Posted 28 September 2013 - 02:17 PM

View PostMuonNeutrino, on 28 September 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

I could, perhaps, see a small heat spike on mechs that are close enough to a mech that dies by engine destruction. There would probably be a % chance for it to happen, and a heat spike by engine rating. The spike and radius should both be small, however. Really what I want is a bit more visual fireworks when a mech blows. There *should* be more sparks and flame, even if damage is a bad idea.



This, on the other hand, is not a very good idea in my opinion. Gameplay-wise it brings back the same problem of a dead mech being more dangerous than a live one and penalizing brawlers for doing their job, but it also doesn't make sense from a physical point of view.

Ammunition exploding does *not* inflict anywhere near the same sort of damage that ammunition properly fired from its weapon does. Literally it's just the propellant/explosive charges cooking off, and the only reason it does much of any damage to the victim is that they're exploding *inside* the mech. Another mech nearby should get nothing more than a mild shaking, if that, because he's not being hit by anything other than the blast wave and perhaps some shrapnel, and armor is designed to resist exactly this sort of proximity damage.


the thing is the ammo explosions should not limit actual brawling, it should penalize Cockpit-banging, Face-Humping Action should the player left wait for the afterparty.

#14 Walks_In_Circles

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 102 posts
  • LocationOregon

Posted 28 September 2013 - 02:22 PM

Ammo explosions should only effect the region of the mech it's located; additional damage to the hard points around it, but mostly visual fluff. It would be very cool.

#15 Team Leader

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,222 posts
  • LocationUrbanmech and Machine Gun Advocate

Posted 28 September 2013 - 02:29 PM

If you are looking for a Mechwarrior game with those features, sorry, you're gonna have to wait another 10 years. The current technology can't keep pace.

#16 RandomLurker

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 393 posts

Posted 28 September 2013 - 03:59 PM

Stackpoles were well addressed above, so I will leave it at that.

I want to say an emphatic "NO!" to mech knockdowns though. That is basically a hard CC effect on another player. That's Crowd Control- think Polymorph. NOT something that belongs in an action game. When you do that, even for only a couple seconds, what you are doing is turning that player into an observer. It is thus bad game design by definition. Also, it's stupid and annoying.

In place of knockdowns I will accept roughly any other collosion effect. Slowdowns, Stops, impact damage, crit damage, whatever. All of these make sense and are not a complete CC effect. I would also accept knockdown vs legged mechs only.

ps. Heat shutdown doesn't count as CC to me because its under the players control.

ps mk2. I was around for MW3 as well, and I remember the insane buff to leg armor. IIRC, it was roughly double, and coincided with a massive nerf to laser heat. 14 cerSlas Shadowcat builds that could one shot entire mechs by aiming at the legs were the rule of the day. The resulting nerf ruined single player. It was not fun.

#17 Ralgas

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 1,628 posts
  • LocationThe Wonderful world of OZ

Posted 28 September 2013 - 06:36 PM



^still love that lil nugget. Goons showing one of the dev's why knockdowns as they were implemented were bad

#18 Duncan Aravain

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 416 posts
  • LocationBehind you with a sharp tool...er,mech

Posted 29 September 2013 - 04:35 AM

I swear I lost a fully energy equipped mech to an ammo explosion! The lrm boat right next to me had a critical ammo hit ignite his 2500+ rounds and my mech was lost. Looking at the cause, the kill record showed my mech died of an ammo explosion, even though I was equipped with only lasers. How this happened or if the kill notice was accurate is a question. My group still gets a chuckle out of this proximity kill and I wonder who got the official credit, since it said I was the cause (wasn't even overheating).

#19 Mudhutwarrior

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • The 1 Percent
  • 4,183 posts
  • LocationThe perimieter, out here there are no stars.

Posted 29 September 2013 - 04:53 AM

Well I would like to add something I don't see considered. Those here who have studied Tactics and Doctorine in the real world might grasp. MWO is Second Genration warfare where coodinated teams fight coodinated teams. Thats our current military. Logistics and Command and control are most important and dominant with no outside threats.

Here in thei envroment pugs in actuality are fighting Second Genration warfare as individual and in that frame its an impossible task with the tools given, I would suggest that individuals, Pugs Be given the tools for fourth generation warfare/individual resistance. A little Jihad if you will. IEDs /mines and or the abilty to disrupt comms with say spark gap transmitters to deny data links. Etc. It would open up a whole new level of play and teams would have to develop counter measure and switch up tactics on the fly. Would make it interesting for both in the long run.

Just an idea...

Edited by Mudhutwarrior, 29 September 2013 - 04:54 AM.


#20 Chupacabralted

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 51 posts

Posted 29 September 2013 - 07:38 AM

Since we all watched that amazing trailer a few years ago, where at the end the pilot was forced to eject himself to save his arse from a huuuuge explosion, we fell in love with the "you shall blow up" idea i guess :wacko:
Then the new devs realized that was impossible for scientific reasons, and decided to delete it, but... hey, i'd like to see a huge explosion anyway :lol: Because "realistic" has never been a synonymous of "fun" to me. What about an ammo explosion when the mech is gone then? (if there is some, of course)





2 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 2 guests, 0 anonymous users