37 replies to this topic

[Corvus Antaka]

Koniving, on 01 October 2013 - 01:31 AM, said:

(Twice as high as a near minimum. My builds run an average of nearly 3 times as high.)
4 AC/2 rigs get heat penalties. You're punished for more than 3.
LRMs need to be fired in pairs of 2 or chain fired. The exception is with a LOT of LRM-5s.

I always just alpha 4 ac/2. a little hot, but it works for me, the penalty doesn't seem a problem for myself, if indeed there is much of one.

[Bront]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 01 October 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

I always just alpha 4 ac/2. a little hot, but it works for me, the penalty doesn't seem a problem for myself, if indeed there is much of one.

It's more than 4 you get punished for with the AC2.

[Koniving]

Bront, on 01 October 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

It's more than 4 you get punished for with the AC2.

Incorrect.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eapon_heatscale
Orange indicates when it hits. 4 AC/2s = 4.18 heat. Normal heat is 4. This is due to the 60% decrease in penalties recently done. It used to be quite a bit higher (something like 5 or so heat for 4 AC/2s with 3 AC/2s gave 3 heat).

How it used to be before that.

Note this firing rate is basically 0.0, 0.233, 0.466 for 3 shots with the cycle repeating at 0.7 seconds to trigger, and slightly slower to not trigger.

Notice the punishing at the time is occuring with 3 shots under 0.5 seconds, and because the game does not register them as separate shots the timer fails to reset and continues... So it assumed the 4th shot is a 4 shot alpha, the 5th shot is a 5 shot alpha, and it keeps going.

Edited by Koniving, 01 October 2013 - 02:04 PM.

[Bront]

Koniving, on 01 October 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

Incorrect.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eapon_heatscale
Orange indicates when it hits. 4 AC/2s = 4.18 heat. Normal heat is 4. This is due to the 60% decrease in penalties recently done. It used to be quite a bit higher (something like 5 or so heat for 4 AC/2s with 3 AC/2s gave 3 heat).

Odd, because I thought the Devs stated it was 4.

At least at 4, it's still negligible.

[Koniving]

Yes. 4 is what you're punished at. 3 is your safe limit for alpha striking AC/2s.
Keep in mind the Smurfy site is updated from the game files typically on the same day as the patch. As in the Actual In Game Files. What the game has set, is what goes up on Smurfy. A dev might say something 5 months back, doesn't mean much. Initially the Devs said there was no AC/2 heat penalty.

The day it was discovered, the moderators said that there was no penalty.

For weeks after the fact, "there is no penalty."

Then all of a sudden after a month "There's a penalty but it's over punishing you. When we change the firing rate of AC/2s to 0.52 the penalty for chain firing should be gone."

[Koniving]

But yes, you're right at 4 it's barely even there. So long as you are alpha striking.

The trouble is we can't get 4 to chain fire at 1/4th second intervals without a penalty. By their explanation if the series doesn't put more than 3 AC/2s chain-fired in 0.5 seconds we should not get the penalty. But with 2 AC/2s only set to fire every 0.27 seconds, I'll still strike a penalty that gets to be the same as 10 AC/2s fired at once with jumps of 30%.

This build which just chain fires 2 AC/2s on top of spamming slow AC/5 fire will invoke heat penalties. Which shouldn't happen but it does. Note: The video is of the build before any heat penalties / ghost heat was introduced into the game.

What sucks is that according to Jazz, it's not mathematically possible but my guess is it has something to do with lag or a delay, because the penalties do kick in, and they hit hard. I can't even get 15 AC/2 shots out without shutting down and seeing spikes of 10% to 30% heat per bullet.

Edited by Koniving, 02 October 2013 - 01:41 AM.

[Kjudoon]

Koniving, on 28 September 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

As far as whether or not DPS can be effective, try this video.

After watching this video, I realize my computer just can't keep up with how smooth that was. I'm getting lagged to death and can't shoot for squat compared to that. Now I know why I die.

[Denolven]

Koniving, on 01 October 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

(lots of info...)
This build which just chain fires 2 AC/2s on top of spamming slow AC/5 fire will invoke heat penalties. Which shouldn't happen but it does.
(lots of info...)

Thank you for all the effort you put into the detailed research.

If I compare two firing modes with 4 AC2 (or any other weapon for that matter), one where they are all fired at the same time, and one where they are fired in small intervals, but in both cases they are fired again as soon as the cooldown is zero - does it even physically make any sense that one mode produces significantly more heat than the other? I mean, in both cases, all weapons are fired with their maximum rate, so they should produce about the same amount of heat.
I find it generally irritating, but am a physics noob, so I'm open to learning something new.

Edited by Denolven, 02 October 2013 - 12:42 AM.

[Koniving]

Denolven, on 02 October 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

Thank you for all the effort you put into the detailed research.

If I compare two firing modes with 4 AC2 (or any other weapon for that matter), one where they are all fired at the same time, and one where they are fired in small intervals, but in both cases they are fired again as soon as the cooldown is zero - does it even physically make any sense that one mode produces significantly more heat than the other? I mean, in both cases, all weapons are fired with their maximum rate, so they should produce about the same amount of heat.
I find it generally irritating, but am a physics noob, so I'm open to learning something new.

"Ghost heat bug." Ghost heat or "heat scale" or "Ghost heat: the magnum opus" is a punishment created by Paul to attack 'weapon boats' that use lots of the same weapon. It is normally supposed to attack you if you fire too many weapons at once. However ~most~ people don't see the attack for AC/2s unless they chain fire (rapidly fire one at a time) the AC/2s.

Previously it generated no different for firing all at once or one at a time (1 heat per shot, or if 4 fired at once then 4 heat per volley).
Like this. If all shots were fired at once it wouldn't be as terrifying to the enemy, but it'd be a LOT deadlier and faster to kill. But no where near as fun. And that's what I crave, the fun.


Now, I get "3 heat per volley" if I fire my 3 AC/2 Hunchback in an alpha [all at once]. But if I fire one at a time in rapid intervals, I get "1 heat, 1 heat, 1.18, 1.45, 1.81, 1.29, 1.95, 2.85, 4.05, 5.85, 8.85," and so on. It does seem to be a bit lighter now than it was but by the 8th shot it really hurts my heat, on the 11th shot I'm generating more than 800% of the shot's normal heat. By the 12th to 14th I shut down regardless. If I override I'd suicide on the 17th shot.

Edited by Koniving, 02 October 2013 - 01:40 AM.

[Denolven]

Koniving, on 02 October 2013 - 01:35 AM, said:

Now, I get "3 heat per volley" if I fire my 3 AC/2 Hunchback in an alpha [all at once]. But if I fire one at a time in rapid intervals, I get "1 heat, 1 heat, 1.18, 1.45, 1.81, 1.29, 1.95, 2.85, 4.05, 5.85, 8.85," and so on. It does seem to be a bit lighter now than it was but by the 8th shot it really hurts my heat, on the 11th shot I'm generating more than 800% of the shot's normal heat. By the 12th to 14th I shut down regardless. If I override I'd suicide on the 17th shot.

Which means the time interval that is used to determine "simultaneous fire" (0.5 seconds?) is actually extending everytime a weapon is fired within that interval? That doesn't make any sense. It should be a moving interval. Only the last 0.5 seconds should be used to determine how many weapons were fired. Everything that happened before must not be included.
So sad

Edited by Denolven, 02 October 2013 - 01:52 AM.

[Aym]

Kon, I don't think Jazz showed the Ghost Heat the Magnom Opus was mathamatically impossible to apply to AC2's fired via macros or quick fingers. I thin khe demonstrated that since "Fast Fire" skill doesn't work, that it wasn't simply PGI's incompetence at choosing a .52 cooldown that was still causing the accidental Ghost Heat (the maths) but rather PGI's incompetence in putting a check in place to see how many weapons are being fired w/out resetting the countdown, thus allowing AC2's to break the system unintentionally (or intentionally w/out explaination in the Maths*)

[Koniving]

Aym, on 02 October 2013 - 02:23 AM, said:

Kon, I don't think Jazz showed the Ghost Heat the Magnom Opus was mathamatically impossible to apply to AC2's fired via macros or quick fingers. I thin khe demonstrated that since "Fast Fire" skill doesn't work, that it wasn't simply PGI's incompetence at choosing a .52 cooldown that was still causing the accidental Ghost Heat (the maths) but rather PGI's incompetence in putting a check in place to see how many weapons are being fired w/out resetting the countdown, thus allowing AC2's to break the system unintentionally (or intentionally w/out explaination in the Maths*)

True. He also I think he showed that chain firing them should not trigger them as well, there's always 0.52 seconds between when one AC/2 can be fired again. Also I'm quite certain Fast Fire was turned off intentionally at around the same time, as otherwise it wouldn't matter if they made that change or not. However it's clear that it hasn't fixed the problem, just the issue with chain firing normally.

But... that's why it should be impossible to hit the penalty with 2 AC/2s chain-fired. 0.52 seconds is greater than 0.5.

We all want ideal times, though. That whould would mean that no matter how they are fired with only 2 AC/2s, there's 0.26 seconds in one ratio or another between single firings. So a window of 0.25 for the penalty on AC/2s should easily allow us to overcome the bug, fire fast enough for suppression but not fast enough to drown enemies in misery and ourselves into penalty oblivion. Honestly I don't see why they don't just set AC/2s to fire once every second and be done with it, since they want to run them into the ground so much. I wants my dakka. Heck I'd take an AC/2 that fires 1 round dealing 1 damage every 0.6 seconds if I could get the penalty removed from AC/2s so I can have my high caliber MGs.

Denolven, on 02 October 2013 - 01:50 AM, said:

Which means the time interval that is used to determine "simultaneous fire" (0.5 seconds?) is actually extending everytime a weapon is fired within that interval? That doesn't make any sense. It should be a moving interval. Only the last 0.5 seconds should be used to determine how many weapons were fired. Everything that happened before must not be included.
So sad

And that's exactly my point. The half second window is to prevent a macro user from firing 6 PPCs back to back to be semi-pinpoint. But for weapons that rely on speed more than power, it's hurting them terribly.

Edit: Holy {Scrap}. An h in "would." I haven't done that since first grade. Yay for 7:06 AM posts when not going to sleep until after 8:30 AM (darn it battlefield 4!).

Edited by Koniving, 02 October 2013 - 08:44 PM.

[Macbrea]

Does anyone know of a good way to group-chain fire? I will give an example:

I run a dragon-flame it has 4 energy slots. I would love to be able to chain fire groups of 2 mpls. This being 2MPL (right arm) then 2MPL (left arm) with 1 button push. This rather then all alpha strikes of 4 MPLS or a chain of 1MPL x 4.

[IllCaesar]

Macbrea, on 02 October 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

Does anyone know of a good way to group-chain fire? I will give an example:

I run a dragon-flame it has 4 energy slots. I would love to be able to chain fire groups of 2 mpls. This being 2MPL (right arm) then 2MPL (left arm) with 1 button push. This rather then all alpha strikes of 4 MPLS or a chain of 1MPL x 4.

Simple, make each arm its own individual firing group. Thats what I did with my Awesome-8T. I suck with the 8T, but thats because I'm generally poor with assaults and a bit rusty overall. Still, I put my left arm in one group in my right arm in its own. Then set them both to chainfire.

If your build is symmetrical, then maybe put left arm to LMB and right arm to RMB. If not, then do what I do, and put the arm with the bigger weapons on whichever mouth button is your strongest, which if you're a righty is probably the LMB, if a lefty the RMB. I'm a bit odd in that I'm right-handed and prefer the RMB, but its all really just personal taste.

Just tested it out on the Testing Grounds just to make sure it worked properly, and it does. Just make sure you have the weapons grouped correctly. 2x MPL in the left arm at LMG, 2x MPL in the right arm at RMB, MPL in the head assigned to middle mouse button, and I put missiles to group 4, which is right about the R button, so its actually a great place for it. That worked my sucky-mc-suck .25K/D arse, so you should be able to figure something out.

Btw, MPLs don't have ghost heat, according to Smurfy.

Edited by MarsAtlas, 02 October 2013 - 08:09 AM.

[Koniving]

MarsAtlas, on 02 October 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

Btw, MPLs don't have ghost heat, according to Smurfy.

They don't. But the only mech that can carry a meaningful number of MPL + the heatsinks to make it viable is the Battlemaster. I'm sure it'll get ghost heat then.

To the rest, this is a very common practice. I personally don't do it because I like having the illusion on some older mechs that haven't had the art overpass, that I have some sort of weapon variant that allows me to fire faster the same two weapons faster rather than 4 weapons split onto separate arms.

Edited by Koniving, 02 October 2013 - 10:49 AM.

[Macbrea]

So, this nightmare of cooling efficiency:

BLR-1G

You could chain fire the MPLS but each one lasts .6 seconds and can be fired every 2.85 seconds. So.. 7 x .6 = 4.2 seconds

Alpha striking will heat you up in 8 seconds by the way with the MPLs. So, in this case you probably want to fire 2, 2, 2, 3. Kind of annoying to time and have on 4 different binds.

[Koniving]

Macbrea, on 02 October 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

So, this nightmare of cooling efficiency:

BLR-1G

You could chain fire the MPLS but each one lasts .6 seconds and can be fired every 2.85 seconds. So.. 7 x .6 = 4.2 seconds

Alpha striking will heat you up in 8 seconds by the way with the MPLs. So, in this case you probably want to fire 2, 2, 2, 3. Kind of annoying to time and have on 4 different binds.

You forgot some AMS ammo and why so inefficient? Defeats the purpose.

It's coming for you.

Chainfire for superior awesomeness on a single bind. MGs on a second.

Edited by Koniving, 02 October 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[Macbrea]

AMS ammo was in left torso. And I was trying to avoid the xl engine due to it could be a death trap.


But in both cases in my opinion you would benefit from group fired chain fire.

Edited by Macbrea, 02 October 2013 - 11:33 AM.