54 replies to this topic

[GalaxyBluestar]

stjobe, on 29 September 2013 - 04:24 AM, said:

So my vote goes to redesigning the hitboxes; Carrioncrows has a very good thread going on just that here.

i think good answers lie in this thread INTELEGENT HITBOXES. remember if PGI can hotfix kintaro CT's then they will be able to managae doing it with all mechs, it should be incoporated into their scale sweep they said they were going to do.

the main problem is that it's too easy to shoot front load alphas onto the ct and take a mech out without scrapping the rest of it. this leaves us in a traditional FPS enviroment and not the brutal grind of attrition we want with mechs. that's why swapping the numbers around won't have the desired effects, adding 20 more HP is merely a delay of the same problem by 20 HP. however if the ratio for being able to hit the CT was dramatically reduced by making arms legs and side torso's encompass a great deal more of the hitboxes it would mean in battle it would become more likely to slowly shread everything but the CT which leads to longer survivability and dragged out slug fests which we all want. only a good sniper on a slow if not dead still target would become a reliable cored shot in battle hopefully regardless of convergence.

if survival rates increased along with componant destructions {beacause it's easier to knock out periphry parts and harder to core mechs} then perhaps we can have boats and cannon mechs back online and get rid of the stupid ghost heatscale made to force less attacks over time onto the ct's. simply CT's are too big and easy to hit in this game.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 29 September 2013 - 05:30 PM.

[Skunk Wolf]

IMHO which accounts for nothing, the armour in this game has never been a great fit.

I think a system like Fallout 3, where it's actually a damage resistance factor, that can get beaten down would be a better idea. matches would be longer and there would be more shooty all around. Atlases would be scary again, instead of the big fat LRM magnets they are. CT's have the highest armour value, so they would have the greatest damage resistance bonus.

You could make pulse lasers, MG's and LBX10's strip that DR off more than other weapons. Not that LBX10's are not scary enough already, but it would give another reason to use pulses.

That would probably require a lot of code-work though.

Edited by Skunk Wolf, 29 September 2013 - 06:33 PM.

[Felio]

OP is just trying to show that gameplay focuses too much on the CT.

[Jman5]

Wait, are you asking me what I would take to make myself as strong as possible or what option would be more balanced overall?

If I were just trying to make myself buff as possible, I'm going to go against the grain here and say take the +80 arm armor. Depending on the mech, that would be a huge buff, for free. Then it's just a matter of getting better at using your arms as shield.

[Nryrony]

As an Atlas I might even consider the arm armor, but as a Jenner there is no choice...

Overall I would simply double the actual armor values - and add some bonus armor to lights/meds as well.

[MustrumRidcully]

Nryrony, on 29 September 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

verall I would simply double the actual armor values - and add some bonus armor to lights/meds as well.

But would this change anything? People still have no reason to go for the arms, and coring is still the fastest and safest way to neutralize a threat.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 30 September 2013 - 12:54 AM.

[Kaijin]

MustrumRidcully, on 30 September 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

But would this change anything? People still have no reason to go for the arms, and coring is still the fastest and safest way to neutralize a threat.

I think it's worth looking at. Double armor from TT value was certainly not enough of a boost to make up for perfect convergence of aimed alphas. So, how about quadruple armor on all torso locations and the head, but leave the arms and legs as is? That'd be 2x on legs and arms, and 4x on torsos and head.

Oh. And while we're at it, bump LRMs back up to 2 pts per missile and make 'em go random like streaks do now. Though with 4x torso armor, might have to make 'em 3, since LRMs still cannot be aimed, just like in TT.

[stjobe]

Kaijin, on 30 September 2013 - 01:14 AM, said:

I think it's worth looking at. Double armor from TT value was certainly not enough of a boost to make up for perfect convergence of aimed alphas. So, how about quadruple armor on all torso locations and the head, but leave the arms and legs as is? That'd be 2x on legs and arms, and 4x on torsos and head.

...Which would be an indirect nerf to light 'mechs, which are easiest to dispatch by legging. Our targets though would get more resilient which would really not be that great a deal for us.

Sorry, but someone has to point out what these changes would do to light 'mechs - they're all very interesting ideas that would certainly help the survivability of heavy and assault 'mechs, but they would spell doom for lights.

[Kaijin]

stjobe, on 30 September 2013 - 01:22 AM, said:

...Which would be an indirect nerf to light 'mechs, which are easiest to dispatch by legging. Our targets though would get more resilient which would really not be that great a deal for us.

Sorry, but someone has to point out what these changes would do to light 'mechs - they're all very interesting ideas that would certainly help the survivability of heavy and assault 'mechs, but they would spell doom for lights.

Light mechs were never intended to be giant-killers. Their role is scouting and taking out other scouts. If you're driving a light mech, and 7 minutes into the match the enemy still has a light mech running around nipping at the heels of your teammates unhindered, then you're not doing your job. And if you've managed to eliminate the enemy scouts, then you keep track of the enemy, and spot for LRMs, and maybe make your opponents nervous by tagging their base. There's plenty for a 30 ton mech to do that doesn't involve taking out 2 or 3 mechs that weigh 3 times as much, or 10 times as much combined.

Now I realize Russ doesn't think this is the way it should be, but really, this is the way it should be. I'm not coming at this as a heavy or assault driver - In addition to my Stalkers, Catapults, Dragons, and Centurions, I've got Jenners, Cicadas, and until recently, I had Commandos as well.

Ideally, we wouldn't have convergence except in a very general sense, like you fire an alpha and most everything hits, but spread across 3 locations instead of all in one place. I'd be in favor of 3x legs & arms, and 4x torsos and head if it would work.

Edited by Kaijin, 30 September 2013 - 02:27 AM.

[MadPanda]

Kaijin, on 30 September 2013 - 01:14 AM, said:

I think it's worth looking at. Double armor from TT value was certainly not enough of a boost to make up for perfect convergence of aimed alphas. So, how about quadruple armor on all torso locations and the head, but leave the arms and legs as is? That'd be 2x on legs and arms, and 4x on torsos and head.

That's a silly idea that would just make legs as the most coveted target instead of the CT. Atlas has about 90-100 CT armor and legs are at around 80. So two legs would be at 160 armor and ct even up to 200. Not to mention almost every single person out there is shaving leg armor off to make their builds. So moving the focus problem from CT to legs don't really solve anything.

[Kaijin]

MadPanda, on 30 September 2013 - 02:31 AM, said:

That's a silly idea that would just make legs as the most coveted target instead of the CT. Atlas has about 90-100 CT armor and legs are at around 80. So two legs would be at 160 armor and ct even up to 200. Not to mention almost every single person out there is shaving leg armor off to make their builds. So moving the focus problem from CT to legs don't really solve anything.

It does, because you'd have to take out both of them to get the kill. Being a lower target than the torsos, and more than likely on the move, legs would be a harder target to hit with the current sniping meta. Brawling would be back.

I hardly ever shave leg armor. I do like it when I find someone who has though.

Edited by Kaijin, 30 September 2013 - 02:39 AM.

[stjobe]

Kaijin, on 30 September 2013 - 02:04 AM, said:

Light mechs were never intended to be giant-killers. Their role is scouting and taking out other scouts.

That's bovine manure, not only from a PvP game perspective, but from a BT lore perspective as well.

Since you can only play one 'mech at a time, all weight classes need to be viable to play; relegating lights to scouting and spotting, and the occasional light-vs-light fight is only going to serve one purpose: Eliminate lights from the game.

I understand this is what some people want, but thankfully the devs don't share that sentiment.

Kaijin, on 30 September 2013 - 02:04 AM, said:

If you're driving a light mech, and 7 minutes into the match the enemy still has a light mech running around nipping at the heels of your teammates unhindered, then you're not doing your job. And if you've managed to eliminate the enemy scouts, then you keep track of the enemy, and spot for LRMs, and maybe make your opponents nervous by tagging their base. There's plenty for a 30 ton mech to do that doesn't involve taking out 2 or 3 mechs that weigh 3 times as much, or 10 times as much combined.

Sure, but do those things bring in any CB/XP? If they did, you might have a point; but since they don't, neither do you.

Everyone seems so keen on stopping lights from fighting nobody seems to be able to put themselves in the driving seat of a light relegated to non-combat roles - how fun would YOU think that was? You aren't allowed to share in the fun of giant stompy robot combat, your sole job is to enable others to have fun, without getting anything in return.

Not a role very many people would willingly take on, and I'm quite sure nobody that suggests it would voluntarily do it themselves.

Edited by stjobe, 30 September 2013 - 02:44 AM.

[Kaijin]

stjobe, on 30 September 2013 - 02:40 AM, said:

nobody seems to be able to put themselves in the driving seat of a light relegated to non-combat roles - how fun would YOU think that was? You aren't allowed to share in the fun of giant stompy robot combat, your sole job is to enable others to have fun, without getting anything in return.

Not a role very many people would willingly take on, and I quite sure nobody that suggests it would voluntarily do it themselves.

I quite enjoy facilitating my team's win by doing my job as a light pilot. Once it's done, and the battle is joined, and there are no fast mechs left on the opposing team to snatch victory out of the jaws of defeat with cap shenanigans, I'll wade into battle with the giant stompy robots, at which point I may get legged, then double legged, but hopefully not before giving the actual giant stompy robots on my side an edge.

See, I see this team game as a team game.

Bovine manure? How many times have you dropped an assualt mech with a light mech playing TT? How often does that kind of thing happen in the novels? I'd bet my entire stable of 22 mechs that it's nowhere near as often as it happens in MWO.

Edited by Kaijin, 30 September 2013 - 02:53 AM.

[DeadlyNerd]

Niether, this is a dumbass suggestion favoring heavier mechs with excess HPs.

Yeah, let's just all equip heavy weapons and exchange other HPs for armor. That'll teach those mediums and lights to flank us...

[MustrumRidcully]

DeadlyNerd, on 30 September 2013 - 03:03 AM, said:

Niether, this is a dumbass suggestion favoring heavier mechs with excess HPs.

It's not a suggestion.

Imagine that this night, the magical mech fairy comes to you and gives you this choice, for your own mechs.
The mech fairy will also visit every other mechwarrior the night and offer the same choice for their own mechs.

For clarification: The magical mech fairy is not Paul, and his own magic is not strong enough to break this spell.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 30 September 2013 - 03:13 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

DeadlyNerd, on 30 September 2013 - 03:03 AM, said:

Niether, this is a dumbass suggestion favoring heavier mechs with excess HPs.

Hm - looks like you didn't get the point.
The poll is a hyperbole... you can even change the poll:

2. take 20 points of armor for 1t and 1 crit and place them where you want (modular armor rule*) but only 1 time
3 take 10 points of armor for 0.5t and 1 crit and place them where you want (modular armor rule*) but only 2times

Question 2:
where would you place this modular armor?
1: CT
2: Legs
3: side Torsos
4: arms


BUT in the end the result is the same - for most but light mechs:
2.
1.

* YEEES BATTLETECH HAS A RULE FOR THAT:

Spoiler

Say hello to my little friend - modular armor:

Edited by Karl Streiger, 30 September 2013 - 03:15 AM.

[stjobe]

Kaijin, on 30 September 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:

I quite enjoy facilitating my team's win by doing my job as a light pilot

So do I, but I don't argue that it should be my only job, and that I'm not allowed to fight before certain criteria is met. Of course I use my speed to scout, and of course I bounce on my 'R' key like it was hot. But if that was all I was allowed do I would have stopped playing a long time ago.

Kaijin, on 30 September 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:

See, I see this team game as a team game.

Nice sound bite, but what does it hide? That lights should only be spotters, cappers, scouts, and perhaps scavengers?

MWO only has one single role: Damage. If a 'mech cannot do that effectively, it is of little use. Spotting and scouting is as easily done in a fast heavy or medium as in a light, and even assaults can do it too, since it's only a question of hitting 'R' or push-to-talk on TS3. There's not much that lights can do that cannot be done by heavier 'mechs, and a lot of things heavier 'mechs do better - like the aforementioned damage.

Kaijin, on 30 September 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:

Bovine manure? How many times have you dropped an assualt mech with a light mech playing TT? How often does that kind of thing happen in the novels? I'd bet my entire stable of 22 mechs that it's nowhere near as often as it happens in MWO.

In TT you had control over anything from 4-12 'mechs usually, and they were of all weight classes. In MWO you only control the one 'mech. Can you spot the difference? Can you understand what it means for gameplay balance? For a PvP game?

[mike29tw]

Kaijin, on 30 September 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:

I quite enjoy facilitating my team's win by doing my job as a light pilot. Once it's done, and the battle is joined, and there are no fast mechs left on the opposing team to snatch victory out of the jaws of defeat with cap shenanigans, I'll wade into battle with the giant stompy robots, at which point I may get legged, then double legged, but hopefully not before giving the actual giant stompy robots on my side an edge.

See, I see this team game as a team game.

Bovine manure? How many times have you dropped an assualt mech with a light mech playing TT? How often does that kind of thing happen in the novels? I'd bet my entire stable of 22 mechs that it's nowhere near as often as it happens in MWO.

Oh please educate me some more about TT and novels on Mechwarrior Online forum.

Having a discussion with a source material purist is so much fun. I really enjoy the back and forth argument.

[Kaijin]

I won't argue with you anymore, jobe. We'll have to agree to disagree, which has been the case in most things that have gone before.

mike29tw, on 30 September 2013 - 03:43 AM, said:

Oh please educate me some more about TT and novels on Mechwarrior Online forum.

Having a discussion with a source material purist is so much fun. I really enjoy the back and forth argument.

I believe jobe is the one you should be asking this question of, as he is the one who made the initial statement that canon backs up his position.

[stjobe]

Kaijin, on 30 September 2013 - 03:46 AM, said:

I won't argue with you anymore, jobe. We'll have to agree to disagree, which has been the case in most things that have gone before.

Fair enough. Good hunting, and may your salvage always be bountiful