28 replies to this topic

[p4g3m4s7r]

In a recent podcast (http://www.nogutsnog...pic,1021.0.html) Russ Bullock stated that the game was balanced around double heatsinks and that as a result single heatsinks weren't worthwhile. I think in large part the community agrees with him on this point. He then stated that he thought that this meant double heatsinks are too powerful, which is kinda a dumb statement ("We just balanced the game. The game is OP! BURN IT TO THE GROUND!!!"). I'm sure it's just an offhanded statement and that Russ is not dumb, but I figured I'd provide a better solution anyway.

1. Keep double heatsinks exactly the way they are. This follows everything stated above.
2. Give single heatsinks the same rate (or very slightly less) of heat dissipation as double heatsinks.
3. Enjoy the viability of single heatsinks.

So, via this solution, you still have to have double heatsinks to actually have a very large quantity of heat capacity (i.e. to alpha energy weapons). It does not provide alternate or more viable means to construct the dreaded 4 PPC stalker. You could conceivably use it as a means to produce a more effective rapid fire energy weapons based brawler, and I'm pretty sure no one would think that was a bad thing.

The only negative side to this is (for PGI at least) the fact that they've now removed the 1.5 million c-bill barrier to being competitive for almost every chassis. This is why I suggest potentially making the rate of heat dissipation from double heatsinks slightly lower than double heatsinks. That way they can still be a straight upgrade that you can sidestep by adding more heatsinks (at the cost of tonnage).

[FupDup]

My preferred solution to this whole debacle is still what it's always been:

1. Give DHS double their current dissipation (up to 0.4 heat per second each), remove their heat capacity increase (capacity locked somewhere around ~25-30), and make them work the same when outside of the engine.

2. Increase SHS dissipation to roughly half of the new DHS value (0.16-0.2 heat per second) and allow them to increase the user's heat capacity by +1.6-2 each (exact number would need gameplay testing to arrive at).


This lets SHS be the option to people who want to fire a few frontloaded alphas but at the downside of having low stamina in a direct firefight (namely brawls). DHS would be the option for very high stamina (and heat neutrality at times) but the user couldn't fire every single weapon at the same time (at least not for the larger energy weapons).

Edited by FupDup, 28 September 2013 - 07:27 AM.

[Wispsy]

FupDup, on 28 September 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

My preferred solution to this whole debacle is still what it's always been:

1. Give DHS double their current dissipation (up to 0.4 heat per second each), remove their heat capacity increase (capacity locked somewhere around ~25-30), and make them work the same when outside of the engine.

2. Increase SHS dissipation to roughly half of the new DHS value (0.16-0.2 heat per second) and allow them to increase the user's heat capacity by +1.6-2 each (exact number would need gameplay testing to arrive at).


This lets SHS be the option to people who want to fire a few frontloaded alphas but at the downside of having low stamina in a direct firefight (namely brawls). DHS would be the option for very high stamina (and heat neutrality at times) but the user couldn't fire every single weapon at the same time (at least not for the larger energy weapons).

I actually quite like that kind of approach

[Riogar Daylighter]

FupDup, on 28 September 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

My preferred solution to this whole debacle is still what it's always been:

1. Give DHS double their current dissipation (up to 0.4 heat per second each), remove their heat capacity increase (capacity locked somewhere around ~25-30), and make them work the same when outside of the engine.

2. Increase SHS dissipation to roughly half of the new DHS value (0.16-0.2 heat per second) and allow them to increase the user's heat capacity by +1.6-2 each (exact number would need gameplay testing to arrive at)


This lets SHS be the option to people who want to fire a few frontloaded alphas but at the downside of having low stamina in a direct firefight (namely brawls). DHS would be the option for very high stamina (and heat neutrality at times) but the user couldn't fire every single weapon at the same time (at least not for the larger energy weapons).

That is an excellent idea that makes sense even in a pseudo science type of way.

[p4g3m4s7r]

FupDup, on 28 September 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

My preferred solution to this whole debacle is still what it's always been:

1. Give DHS double their current dissipation (up to 0.4 heat per second each), remove their heat capacity increase (capacity locked somewhere around ~25-30), and make them work the same when outside of the engine.

2. Increase SHS dissipation to roughly half of the new DHS value (0.16-0.2 heat per second) and allow them to increase the user's heat capacity by +1.6-2 each (exact number would need gameplay testing to arrive at).


This lets SHS be the option to people who want to fire a few frontloaded alphas but at the downside of having low stamina in a direct firefight (namely brawls). DHS would be the option for very high stamina (and heat neutrality at times) but the user couldn't fire every single weapon at the same time (at least not for the larger energy weapons).

The problem with this approach is what I think is the problem with Russ's opinion. They basically barely just balanced the game around the current DHS. If you change them, you suddenly change the balance for every weapon in the game, which to me is a problem.

Your SHS solution also has the problem of reintroducing Alpha's that are larger than the dev's target alpha damage (~30 if you listen to the podcast). You'd reintroduce the issue of boating, and you'd put noobs (a.k.a people who haven't gotten DHS yet) in a position to want to boat. I think the best option is one that makes the barrier to competitiveness for your average player (which by the devs own statement of intent is someone who isn't boating) lower while still making DHS a straight upgrade in most situations.

[Toong]

I get the feeling this idea wasn't very well thought out.

Making single heatsinks have the same dissipation as doubles would make doubles useless, since you'd be sacrificing two extra slots for the same thing.

No, I think the best solution to the heatsink 'problem' is to wait until Repair and Rearm's spiritual successor comes out, making doubles more expensive to field.

P.S. As with all topics concerning heatsinks, I must remind that in Battletech Lore, double heatsinks -were- simply better than singles, and by the 3060's virtually all 'mechs had been refitted to use them. I don't understand why people get so upset about this.

[Gaan Cathal]

p4g3m4s7r, on 28 September 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

The problem with this approach is what I think is the problem with Russ's opinion. They basically barely just balanced the game around the current DHS. If you change them, you suddenly change the balance for every weapon in the game, which to me is a problem.

Your SHS solution also has the problem of reintroducing Alpha's that are larger than the dev's target alpha damage (~30 if you listen to the podcast). You'd reintroduce the issue of boating, and you'd put noobs (a.k.a people who haven't gotten DHS yet) in a position to want to boat. I think the best option is one that makes the barrier to competitiveness for your average player (which by the devs own statement of intent is someone who isn't boating) lower while still making DHS a straight upgrade in most situations.

Reread his post. He's talking about SHS having a Heat Capacity Increase roughly on par with current DHS Heat Capacity, but worse cooling (assuming the low end of his capacity numbers).

[Purlana]

Leave heat sinks alone. Single heat sinks are outdated tech it doesn't need to be balanced with the new tech. When clan DHS come out are you going to go back and buff all the old heat sinks...? Is FF armor and Endo steel balanced with standard armor and the standard structure, should we buff standard those as well...?

Edited by Purlana, 28 September 2013 - 11:45 AM.

[dario03]

Toong, on 28 September 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

I get the feeling this idea wasn't very well thought out.

Making single heatsinks have the same dissipation as doubles would make doubles useless, since you'd be sacrificing two extra slots for the same thing.

No, I think the best solution to the heatsink 'problem' is to wait until Repair and Rearm's spiritual successor comes out, making doubles more expensive to field.

P.S. As with all topics concerning heatsinks, I must remind that in Battletech Lore, double heatsinks -were- simply better than singles, and by the 3060's virtually all 'mechs had been refitted to use them. I don't understand why people get so upset about this.

I don't really consider balancing by R&R actual balancing. Unless they make it so you can only bring a mech that costs so much its basically just a tax. And if they start limiting mechs by cost then that's a whole other thing that would need to be balanced.

[sC4r]

FupDup, on 28 September 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

My preferred solution to this whole debacle is still what it's always been:

1. Give DHS double their current dissipation (up to 0.4 heat per second each), remove their heat capacity increase (capacity locked somewhere around ~25-30), and make them work the same when outside of the engine.

2. Increase SHS dissipation to roughly half of the new DHS value (0.16-0.2 heat per second) and allow them to increase the user's heat capacity by +1.6-2 each (exact number would need gameplay testing to arrive at).


This lets SHS be the option to people who want to fire a few frontloaded alphas but at the downside of having low stamina in a direct firefight (namely brawls). DHS would be the option for very high stamina (and heat neutrality at times) but the user couldn't fire every single weapon at the same time (at least not for the larger energy weapons).

something along this was suggested crapton of times... sadly only suggested :/

Toong, on 28 September 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

I get the feeling this idea wasn't very well thought out.

Making single heatsinks have the same dissipation as doubles would make doubles useless, since you'd be sacrificing two extra slots for the same thing.

No, I think the best solution to the heatsink 'problem' is to wait until Repair and Rearm's spiritual successor comes out, making doubles more expensive to field.

P.S. As with all topics concerning heatsinks, I must remind that in Battletech Lore, double heatsinks -were- simply better than singles, and by the 3060's virtually all 'mechs had been refitted to use them. I don't understand why people get so upset about this.

yes that is truth but we are ingame and IF something is ingame it should be viable in some way the way the shs are now... well lets just say they have no use at all

Edited by sC4r, 28 September 2013 - 12:29 PM.

[Purlana]

sC4r, on 28 September 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

yes that is truth but we are ingame and IF something is ingame it should be viable in some way the way the shs are now... well lets just say they have no use at all

I don't see why, outdated tech becomes obsolete. It's not really strange at all.

[New Day]

Purlana, on 28 September 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

I don't see why, outdated tech becomes obsolete. It's not really strange at all.

[bobthebomb]

FupDup, on 28 September 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

My preferred solution to this whole debacle is still what it's always been:

1. Give DHS double their current dissipation (up to 0.4 heat per second each), remove their heat capacity increase (capacity locked somewhere around ~25-30), and make them work the same when outside of the engine.

2. Increase SHS dissipation to roughly half of the new DHS value (0.16-0.2 heat per second) and allow them to increase the user's heat capacity by +1.6-2 each (exact number would need gameplay testing to arrive at).


This lets SHS be the option to people who want to fire a few frontloaded alphas but at the downside of having low stamina in a direct firefight (namely brawls). DHS would be the option for very high stamina (and heat neutrality at times) but the user couldn't fire every single weapon at the same time (at least not for the larger energy weapons).

I like this !

[Purlana]

NamesAreStupid, on 28 September 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

Sure, but then why not buff standard structure and armor as well? It's in the same situation as SHS / DHS.... Also FF armor is useless when compared to Endo steel, well now we need to buff that as well.

Edited by Purlana, 28 September 2013 - 02:29 PM.

[xX_Nero_Xx]

roflmao love how ppl complain about boating,heat most of the clan mechs coming are energy boats and with double heats sinks that weight 1 ton and 2 crits.
clan mechs daishi and masakari novacats supernova ryoken just a few if you havnt seen the load outs.
when they finally show up what are we going to do redesign the whole game again.
problem is ppl just need to learn how to manage heat chain fire and group weapons and alpha only when you have to.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Toong, on 28 September 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

I get the feeling this idea wasn't very well thought out.

Making single heatsinks have the same dissipation as doubles would make doubles useless, since you'd be sacrificing two extra slots for the same thing.

No, I think the best solution to the heatsink 'problem' is to wait until Repair and Rearm's spiritual successor comes out, making doubles more expensive to field.

P.S. As with all topics concerning heatsinks, I must remind that in Battletech Lore, double heatsinks -were- simply better than singles, and by the 3060's virtually all 'mechs had been refitted to use them. I don't understand why people get so upset about this.

I'm pretty sure the real reason people complain about this is that it's a major pain in the scrapbin to have to pay 1.5 million cbills every time you buy a 'mech on top of the 'mech's price just to make its heat dissipation worth more than a 50 kph Commando. I agree with that opinion, because it's plain and simple a stupid thing to have that be the way of the game. If buying a 'mech isn't expensive enough, then increase the price of the 'mech and be done with it, don't make people pay an 'improvement tax' to make the 'mech worthwhile.

A similar problem occurs in 3.5 edition D&D and in Essentials-era 4ed D&D, where there are certain feats that you simply have to take in order to make your character reach the expected level of capability for the game, but you have a limited array of feats you can have on a character and the majority of the feats are for making your character function better in interesting ways rather than making them viable. Guess what? Pretty much everyone is somewhere between mildly annoyed and highly exasperated about that too. The difference being, many DMs for 4ed D&D will grant their players these feats for free to avoid the stupid 'feat tax' and the only people who can avert this dumb tax in MWO are the developers, who've had (admittedly largely more pressing) other things on their hands to fix or add to the game.

I would rather just see the price of every stock 'mech without DHS go up 1.5 million Cbills and have them come with DHS than retain the silly way things are now. Of course, it would be even better to not have that improvement cost an hour and a half of additional gameplay from a decently skilled player (potentially in a borderline-unusable 'mech, especially for new players buying their first 'mech) and considerably more for those inexperienced in Mechwarrior-series combat, but even a small step forwards is a step forwards.

Edited by Elli Gujar, 28 September 2013 - 03:11 PM.

[p4g3m4s7r]

Toong, on 28 September 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

I get the feeling this idea wasn't very well thought out.

Making single heatsinks have the same dissipation as doubles would make doubles useless, since you'd be sacrificing two extra slots for the same thing.

No, I think the best solution to the heatsink 'problem' is to wait until Repair and Rearm's spiritual successor comes out, making doubles more expensive to field.

P.S. As with all topics concerning heatsinks, I must remind that in Battletech Lore, double heatsinks -were- simply better than singles, and by the 3060's virtually all 'mechs had been refitted to use them. I don't understand why people get so upset about this.

I don't get how so many people have misread my post, it's really disconcerting. I mean, didn't I specifically point out that neither shs or dhs would have a capacity change in my suggestion multiple times.

Anyway, the devs have stated they are specifically against outmoding technology. So whether you want the devs to wsste development time implementing technologies that will invalidate other technologies or not, tjey just aren't going to. They're going to either buff shs or nerf dhs as stated by russ bullock. I think I know which of those everyone would prefer.

[p4g3m4s7r]

Purlana, on 28 September 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

Sure, but then why not buff standard structure and armor as well? It's in the same situation as SHS / DHS.... Also FF armor is useless when compared to Endo steel, well now we need to buff that as well.

Wrong on both fronts. There are a few very high heat builds that absolutely cannot use ff or endo. Also lights and mediums often times really need both ff and endo. Thus neither cancels the other out or is always better than not having the upgrade.

[RandomLurker]

Remember that the base heat capacity is 30, so with DHS under FupDups plan, firing two ERPPC simultaneously results in instant shutdown. (not counting efficiencies). And that's with no ghost heat.

So, SHS would be more or less like the DHS we have now, but you could swap to DHS for improved dissipation and much lower alpha. Basically, it's a straight up trade for sustained fire over alpha damage. That's actually a nerf to alpha builds, and a better heat management system in general. I approve.

[p4g3m4s7r]

Gaan Cathal, on 28 September 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

Reread his post. He's talking about SHS having a Heat Capacity Increase roughly on par with current DHS Heat Capacity, but worse cooling (assuming the low end of his capacity numbers).

Exactly. The limit on dhs capacity is crit space, not weight. Increasing shs capacity to the same as dhs capacity would enable 4x ppc boats to alpha without shutting down. They'd have to wait a very long time to fire again, but that's essentially what we had before ghost heat.

RandomLurker, on 28 September 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

Remember that the base heat capacity is 30, so with DHS under FupDups plan, firing two ERPPC simultaneously results in instant shutdown. (not counting efficiencies). And that's with no ghost heat.

So, SHS would be more or less like the DHS we have now, but you could swap to DHS for improved dissipation and much lower alpha. Basically, it's a straight up trade for sustained fire over alpha damage. That's actually a nerf to alpha builds, and a better heat management system in general. I approve.

My plan accomplishes the exact same thing except makes the trade off way less extreme. It also has opposite roles for shs and dhs