575 replies to this topic

[Pendraco]

Where are these 100% guaranteed to hit Streaks? Granted I have only used them in 154 of my 3500 matches, but according to my stats they only hit 60.85% of the time. Due to the random hit locations the ONLY reason to use them is for lights. They are useless for pretty much anything else.

[Heat Seeking Civet]

Kunae, on 02 October 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

Wow really?!

Of course they can, but ECM only comes on 3 lights, not all. The 150m counter range limitation is less relevant when your mech can move 116kph.

Then don't be alone? This is team game after all, why on earth Terra people travel alone with streaks is beyond me. If you aren't alone, ECM lights shouldn't be a problem regardless of the minimum range. It just means it's not YOUR TURN to focus them yet.

Edited by ForestGnome, 02 October 2013 - 01:53 PM.

[Kaijin]

EmCeeMendez, on 02 October 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

So the answer to streaks are a hard counter? That makes each match an arms race, and whoever simply stacks more of an item gains a competitive advantage.

Stacking counters is the PGIGP way. And frankly, unless Spiders are fixed, I like SSRMs just the way they are. My last match I unloaded 6 MLas twice into a stationary Spider's CT and it only went to orange, and then ran away.

[Gaan Cathal]

TexAss, on 02 October 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

No one in the world stops them tuning the numbers when we actually get clan tech which can be 6 to 8 to 10 months away, so why should we nerf a really bad weapon (SSRM2s) right now and play for 6,8 or 10 months with them?

Firstly, they're not really bad. They're a million miles better than their closest competitor, the ASRM2. Secondly, you really think it'll work that way? They'll be stuck at 2.5dmg/missile and have some other shonkey mechanic put in place, or a chassis-specific nerf for mechs that can boat them well, if they're not fixed now. 2.0 dmg/missile SSRMs would work perfectly well right now, and have a better relationship with their tonnage cost.

Deathlike, on 02 October 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

2.5 is too much for SSRMs. I did advocate for a boost when the random body part change was made... but I was personally expecting 2.0 from the get go... not the 2.5 which is arguably the only effective short range missile at the very moment.

Really. This is the only change I actually think needs to happen. 2.0 damage/missile, then they're fine.

Bront, on 02 October 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

Clan SSRM6 is 3 tons and 2 crit slots. Clan ASRM is 2.5 tons and 3 crit slots. IS still doesn't get an SSRM6 for some time.

(And I do agree that ultimately the damage should be identical. It's silly for it not to be). Personally, the only SRM I'd put Artemis on is a 6.

Yeah, I was using IS numbers, Clan numbers follow a similar pattern. And I expect/hope that the Inner Sphere will get access to things like ERML, SSRM6, and the full line of LB-X and Ultra- ACs when or shortly after the Clans are released. The other alternative is Inner Sphere players clamouring for, and possibly getting, access to ClanTech. There will be a "gating balance" used for it, which will be largely meaningless, and render any later release of more IS tech redundant. Restrict Clan Tech to Clans, and IS Tech to IS. If the timeline needs to be bent slightly to accommodate balance, so be it. I'm only talking about obvious extensions of existing tech, like Ultras, LB-Xs, ERs, Streaks etc, not Heavy Lasers, Rotary ACs and whatnot.

[Kunae]

Ed Steele, on 02 October 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

It isn't any more of a crutch than knowingly using a light mech with broken hitboxes, that can stand beneath the legs of a bigger mech and shoot up at them without being knocked back, or down, or even taking significant damage.

Why do you keep bringing up spiders? This isn't about spiders.

Just because spiders are broken, is no reason to have SSRMs. If they're a problem, remove spiders til they're fixed, rather than doing something which hurts other mechs.

[Gaan Cathal]

Ed Steele, on 02 October 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

It isn't any more of a crutch than knowingly using a light mech with broken hitboxes, that can stand beneath the legs of a bigger mech and shoot up at them without being knocked back, or down, or even taking significant damage.

One mech is broken! Shall we fix it? No! Punish an entire weight class!

[mania3c]

Kunae, on 02 October 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Why do you keep bringing up spiders? This isn't about spiders.

Just because spiders are broken, is no reason to have SSRMs. If they're a problem, remove spiders til they're fixed, rather than doing something which hurts other mechs.

Do you understand that streaks are, for many mechs, only option to somehow defend themselves against lights and fast mediums? I have streaks on few on my heavier mechs..and while these streaks can't outright kill these lights, it is at least giving me some fighting chance..

and no..streaks don't hit 100% of time..

[Kunae]

mania3c, on 02 October 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

Do you understand that streaks are, for many mechs, only option to somehow defend themselves against lights and fast mediums? I have streaks on few on my heavier mechs..and while these streaks can't outright kill these lights, it is at least giving me some fighting chance..

and no..streaks don't hit 100% of time..

Yes, they do, unless the light mech can put an obstacle between in the quarter second travel time.

Streaks are not the only option, this is the fallacy that has persisted because of broken mechanics. Once PGI fixes the few broken things on one or two chassis, plus HSR, it's going to be suicide to run a light.

Already, lasers and ballistics tear up the non-broken lights. And it will only get worse for them.

[Gaan Cathal]

mania3c, on 02 October 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

Do you understand that streaks are, for many mechs, only option to somehow defend themselves against lights and fast mediums? I have streaks on few on my heavier mechs..and while these streaks can't outright kill these lights, it is at least giving me some fighting chance..

No. No they aren't. You can kill Lights with Lasers, with Ballistics, even with SRMs when they're behaving (and that's the fault of shonky SRM code). The only things that can't really threaten Lights are LRMs and..well..that's an artifact of the weapon, really, and fully intended. The only mechs that can't defend themselves against Lights are LRM-boats that either haven't (Assaults) or can't (Cats) fit a proper defensive armament. And that's an opportunity cost of LRMs. Are they worth it? No, but that's because they aren't long ranged in MW:O.

In short, if you can only fend off Lights with SSRMs, the problem is in the cockpit, not the game engine.

[stjobe]

People told me I couldn't play against a StreakCat in my Commando; "L2P, you just need to stay away" they said. "It's not OP, you just need to stay outside 270m" they said. Funny that, when my own weapons had a 270m range. "It's balanced, GaussCats kill StreakCats" they said. Not much comfort for my Commando that doesn't even know what a ballistic slot looks like and cannot mount such heavy weapons anyway. "Just L2P" they said, as their StreakCats obliterated anything they locked on to.

It was enough of a problem that PGI created ECM in it's bastardized glory to counter it.

Funny how history repeats itself now that ECM is toned down and there's an even faster chassis capable of mounting large number of SSRMs.

For the record, SSRMs need to be put back to 2.0 damage; there's no logical or other reason they should both be lock-on guided AND do more damage than a SRM-2 that you have to aim.

Ideally, of course, the aiming code should be rewritten to make them less maneuverable and require a bit more effort to use, but the main thing is:

SSRMs are just SRMs that won't fire unless the targeting computer thinks they will hit - there is not a single valid reason they should do more damage than regular SRMs.

Edited by stjobe, 02 October 2013 - 02:06 PM.

[Deathlike]

stjobe, on 02 October 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

People told me I couldn't play against a StreakCat in my Commando; "L2P, you just need to stay away" they said. "It's not OP, you just need to stay outside 270m" they said. Funny that, when my own weapons had a 270m range. "It's balanced, GaussCats kill StreakCats" they said. Not much comfort for my Commando that doesn't even know what a ballistic slot looks like and cannot mount such heavy weapons anyway. "Just L2P" they said, as their StreakCats obliterated anything they locked on to.

It was enough of a problem that PGI created ECM in it's bastardized glory to counter it.

Funny how history repeats itself now that ECM is toned down and there's an even faster chassis capable of mounting large number of SSRMs.

For the record, SSRMs need to be put back to 2.0 damage; there's no logical or other reason they should both be lock-on guided AND do more damage than a SRM-2 that you have to aim.

Ideally, of course, the aiming code should be rewritten to make them less maneuverable and require a bit more effort to use, but the main thing is:

SSRMs are just SRMs that won't fire unless the targeting computer thinks they will hit - there is not a single valid reason they should do more damage than regular SRMs.

Your DK needs a hug.

[Kunae]

stjobe, on 02 October 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

People told me I couldn't play against a StreakCat in my Commando; "L2P, you just need to stay away" they said. "It's not OP, you just need to stay outside 270m" they said. Funny that, when my own weapons had a 270m range. "It's balanced, GaussCats kill StreakCats" they said. Not much comfort for my Commando that doesn't even know what a ballistic slot looks like and cannot mount such heavy weapons anyway. "Just L2P" they said, as their StreakCats obliterated anything they locked on to.

It was enough of a problem that PGI created ECM in it's bastardized glory to counter it.

Funny how history repeats itself now that ECM is toned down and there's an even faster chassis capable of mounting large number of SSRMs.

For the record, SSRMs need to be put back to 2.0 damage; there's no logical or other reason they should both be lock-on guided AND do more damage than a SRM-2 that you have to aim.

Ideally, of course, the aiming code should be rewritten to make them less maneuverable and require a bit more effort to use, but the main thing is:

SSRMs are just SRMs that won't fire unless the targeting computer thinks they will hit - there is not a single valid reason they should do more damage than regular SRMs.

Well said.

[PEEFsmash]

I very much agree with the sentiment expressed here. Auto-hit weapons that require more or less no aim at all do not have a place in a skill-based FPS.

The biggest problem I have with them, unsurprisingly, is that they are a weapon that is ONLY GOOD AGAINST LIGHTS (and a couple mediums). Where are the weapon systems that only crush assault mechs?

[Kaijin]

stjobe, on 02 October 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

in my Commando

I think I see the problem here

[DeaconW]

Kunae, on 02 October 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

when you consider that a light has zero chance to kill a Streak-Kint, if they need to fight them. None.

and this is the part that light pilots don't get and why lights are OP in general...this is the way IT SHOULD BE. The fact that you can't easykill a mech that outclasses and outguns you is hilarious. The truth is that Lights should have very little chance of winning one-on-one with a much larger, well-armed mech, unless the heavy pilot is a derp. Lights should be making their C-bills and XP from scouting and such but PGI has chosen to not incentivize light pilots that way and therefore has buffed lights in general to be able to go toe-to-toe with much larger mechs.

[NocturnalBeast]

PEEFsmash, on 02 October 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

I very much agree with the sentiment expressed here. Auto-hit weapons that require more or less no aim at all do not have a place in a skill-based FPS.

The biggest problem I have with them, unsurprisingly, is that they are a weapon that is ONLY GOOD AGAINST LIGHTS (and a couple mediums). Where are the weapon systems that only crush assault mechs?

Decent light pilots can easily outmaneuver and tear apart assault mechs. Also, LRMS, when used correctly, are very good for taking out big, slow assaults.

[stjobe]

Kaijin, on 02 October 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

I think I see the problem here

Pfft. Commandos are DEATH INCARNATE and you know it. You TREMBLE before the might of the KING of BATTLE, hiding in your oversized cockpit, thinking mere TONS of armour can save you, even though you know it never can.

Problem, my shiny metal lower rear centre torso.

[Kunae]

DeaconW, on 02 October 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

and this is the part that light pilots don't get and why lights are OP in general...this is the way IT SHOULD BE. The fact that you can't easykill a mech that outclasses and outguns you is hilarious. The truth is that Lights should have very little chance of winning one-on-one with a much larger, well-armed mech, unless the heavy pilot is a derp. Lights should be making their C-bills and XP from scouting and such but PGI has chosen to not incentivize light pilots that way and therefore has buffed lights in general to be able to go toe-to-toe with much larger mechs.

Unfortunately, for you, that is not how PGI is designing their game. They stated from the beginning that mech-weight alone does not guarantee victory, and that a skilled pilot in any mech, should be able to kill another.

And I hope they never change this stance, as we'll get even worse than current, Assault-Warrior-Online.

stjobe, on 02 October 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

Pfft. Commandos are DEATH INCARNATE and you know it. You TREMBLE before the might of the KING of BATTLE, hiding in your oversized cockpit, thinking mere TONS of armour can save you, even though you know it never can.

Problem, my shiny metal lower rear centre torso.

Commandos actually used to be a threat. A well played commando could really do some damage to the enemy.

Not so much anymore, due to how easy they are to kill.

[stjobe]

DeaconW, on 02 October 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

and this is the part that light pilots don't get and why lights are OP in general...this is the way IT SHOULD BE. The fact that you can't easykill a mech that outclasses and outguns you is hilarious. The truth is that Lights should have very little chance of winning one-on-one with a much larger, well-armed mech, unless the heavy pilot is a derp. Lights should be making their C-bills and XP from scouting and such but PGI has chosen to not incentivize light pilots that way and therefore has buffed lights in general to be able to go toe-to-toe with much larger mechs.

No, you - and any other parroting this stale and boring old tune - forget one very simple fact: This is a PvP game.

It is a PvP game where each player controls only a single 'mech for the duration of a battle, and as such we cannot have a whole weight class that isn't combat effective.

We also cannot have one weight class just by default being superior to all others, because then what's the point of those other weight classes?

In BT, you had command over anything from 4-12 'mechs of all different weight classes; there they could afford to have assaults be strictly better than lights. In MWO, we have command over just the single 'mech and therefore we cannot.

PvP games cannot work if not all player controlled units are roughly equal in power, because otherwise nobody would play anything but the most powerful unit.

[Kunae]

Ed Steele, on 02 October 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

Decent light pilots can easily outmaneuver and tear apart assault mechs. Also, LRMS, when used correctly, are very good for taking out big, slow assaults.

Not sure where you're going with this, mate.

He's not saying nothing can kill assaults, he's saying that weapons which can kill assaults can kill everything else, too. And thus, why is there a weapon that's really only useful vs lights and some mediums.