575 replies to this topic

[John Wolf]

This is an interesting concept. However, SSRM's are a matter of Canon, and are guided. Does this mean they hit all the time? Yes, if you don't have cover. Similar to LRMs, which are auto hit as well as long as you have a lock. Guided missiles are guided missiles.

This comes down to a different problem. Light mechs are supposed to be scared of guided missiles, and a Kintaro or any other fast mech boating SSRMs to hunt lights is supposed to be effective. Yes, in a 1 v 1 with a light mech vs a kintaro Streak boat? Your light is in trouble. Add ecm? Negates that a bit, tag, negates your negation, etc.

The problem isn't that SSRMs are broken, its that you are forcing a fighting style that meets its flaw. A light mech on its own, rushing enemy lines, without support, is vulnerable. MORESO with a speedy streaker to hunt you down. SSRMs I propose are not broken, I believe people's expectations within a light mech are.

If you are running all over the map, alone, without support, and you find a mech that can kick your butt? you are in trouble. Bring that kintaro back into your friends for them to chew him up so you can continue.

SSRM's are a part of the game, and their guided death is also a part of it. This is all part of the metagame. I cannot support the idea of 'breaking' SSRMs so light mechs have an easier time running around alone without support. You cannot have a discussion about changing SSRM's without also including why this change should also be for LRM's.

If you can give me a proper example of why SSRM's are broken, other than they kill lights, then I'd be happy to discuss and review that.

My 2 cents.

[Kunae]

Mystere, on 02 October 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

But isn't that the whole point of a highly-specialized build (i.e. light hunter-killer)?

Is there a highly specialized Assault killer? How bout a Heavy-killer... I am sure we've got some of those.

Why do you think it's necessary to have this type of mechanic in the game?

[Chemie]

If you nerf damage when 5 are used, you make it useless when 1 or 2 are used.

How is this different than the streak cat?

Now, if there was weight balance in drops, at least there are some trade-offs (you bring a light killer but sacrifice a heavy to do it....we bring an extra heavy and are careful with our lights). You cannot just balance one weapon and one scenario at a time.

[Jonathan Paine]

I'm a little conflicted. On the one hand, I think that 2.5 damage is too much for streaks. On the other, I don't think that lights getting streaked to death by the kintaros is a real problem. Yeah, if you try to fight one up close one on one - both mechs fresh - you will lose pretty much every time. Also, a good kintaro pilot can keep up with and chase down lights, even when they try to run away. Too bad.

What about the impact of two lights with ecm running together?
Answer: dead kintaro.

What about a single light getting within 180m of an lrm boat?
Answer: dead lrm boat

What about a single light getting within 90m of a ppc mech?
Answer: dead ppc mech

As for medium mechs vs streaking kintaros? AC 20 does 20 points of damage in one location every 4 seconds. Loading up with medium lasers should do the trick too. AMS helps.

For SSRM2, I think the solution is the usual. Slightly nerf damage. Consider forcing a new lock between rounds of fire. If and when mechs can boat SSRM4's and SSRM6's, now that will be a real problem.

[D1G17AL]

John Wolf, on 02 October 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

This is an interesting concept. However, SSRM's are a matter of Canon, and are guided. Does this mean they hit all the time? Yes, if you don't have cover. Similar to LRMs, which are auto hit as well as long as you have a lock. Guided missiles are guided missiles.

This comes down to a different problem. Light mechs are supposed to be scared of guided missiles, and a Kintaro or any other fast mech boating SSRMs to hunt lights is supposed to be effective. Yes, in a 1 v 1 with a light mech vs a kintaro Streak boat? Your light is in trouble. Add ecm? Negates that a bit, tag, negates your negation, etc.

The problem isn't that SSRMs are broken, its that you are forcing a fighting style that meets its flaw. A light mech on its own, rushing enemy lines, without support, is vulnerable. MORESO with a speedy streaker to hunt you down. SSRMs I propose are not broken, I believe people's expectations within a light mech are.

If you are running all over the map, alone, without support, and you find a mech that can kick your butt? you are in trouble. Bring that kintaro back into your friends for them to chew him up so you can continue.

SSRM's are a part of the game, and their guided death is also a part of it. This is all part of the metagame. I cannot support the idea of 'breaking' SSRMs so light mechs have an easier time running around alone without support. You cannot have a discussion about changing SSRM's without also including why this change should also be for LRM's.

If you can give me a proper example of why SSRM's are broken, other than they kill lights, then I'd be happy to discuss and review that.

My 2 cents.

This. Damn it THIS. This is the point that needs to get made.

Kunae go back to the game and stop lurking the forums.

[Kunae]

FrDrake, on 02 October 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

Kunae, you know I respect you as a player, but look at what you are describing, you left off 2 important parts in your analysis above, The dmg is halved and then randomly distributed to the target. Pinpoint dmg is OP, not random damage.

The ONLY reason the Kintaro and SSRMs are OP is that you do enough random damage to actually accumulate appreciable damage to the same location.

SSRMs are right now what EVERY weapon in the TT was.

If every missile hit CT then I would be on board with you, but they fixed that and so I'm not.

If TT is a justification that you are using, then let's have all weapons auto-hit random locations. Just lock onto your target with your Stalker or Atlas and let fly... everything hits. It's ok, it's random locations. Can you see the illogic in this?

FrDrake, on 02 October 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

If a Jenner and a Kintaro faced off against each other the Jenner would win, blow out the shoulder and Kintaro dead. But that doesn't happen you say because the Kintaro has fire support so the Jenner that stops moving is dead. Well what about the Jenner's friends, now the argument is "teamwork is OP".

No, if a fresh Jenner and a fresh 5-streak Kintaro face off, the Kint will always win.

Now, in most cases, when you run across these guys you've already taken a bunch of armor-damage, at least. They can then make short-work out of you.

[Deathlike]

If only the SRM2 sucked less... it still suffers from DPS, but it suffers most from the trajectory nerf from a while ago. That's only being compounded with the terribad SRM hit detection. ASRM2 or SSRM2? By the current state of the game, the answer is obvious.

[FrDrake]

PropagandaWar, on 02 October 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

So what happens when you pack 4 Streak 6 Srm's even at random at the current value thats 60 points per salvo that more often than not only hit 4 locations and if the days going your way more missles will hit one limb over the other essentially nuking just about everything. Bring in a Streak cat and oh lord lets chain fire what about 8 of those things at 120 damage per salvo. No legs, No arms no service. Just saying.

Ok, so max missile slots is currently 6, 36 missiles, 90 damage alpha strikes.

IS SSRM 6 weighs 4.5 tons each, cashing in at 27 tons of weapons.

At 4 heat a piece, you are looking at almost the same heat as 2 PPCs and an AC/20 (which incidentally only weigh 1 ton more)

So you have 40 pinpoint damage versus 90 random damage for (almost) equivalent tonnage/heat. The ppc/ac20 setup greatly outranges the ssrm setup.

I don't see the problem. Vets are going to choose pinpoint damage, noobstompers will choose lolcats for the funzies. There is no concieveable argument I can come up with why someone would take the random damage over the pinpoint. You know what kills alight in 4 seconds, the 40 pinpoint from the ppc and ac/20, none of this "chase around the light and plink him to death".

[Cybermech]

tbh in a light mech I don't find the kintaro an issue since I bail.
don't get me wrong if I'm not paying attention I will be in trouble.
but atm ballistics are my issue.

[Kunae]

John Wolf, on 02 October 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

This is an interesting concept. However, SSRM's are a matter of Canon, and are guided. Does this mean they hit all the time? Yes, if you don't have cover. Similar to LRMs, which are auto hit as well as long as you have a lock. Guided missiles are guided missiles.

This comes down to a different problem. Light mechs are supposed to be scared of guided missiles, and a Kintaro or any other fast mech boating SSRMs to hunt lights is supposed to be effective. Yes, in a 1 v 1 with a light mech vs a kintaro Streak boat? Your light is in trouble. Add ecm? Negates that a bit, tag, negates your negation, etc.

The problem isn't that SSRMs are broken, its that you are forcing a fighting style that meets its flaw. A light mech on its own, rushing enemy lines, without support, is vulnerable. MORESO with a speedy streaker to hunt you down. SSRMs I propose are not broken, I believe people's expectations within a light mech are.

If you are running all over the map, alone, without support, and you find a mech that can kick your butt? you are in trouble. Bring that kintaro back into your friends for them to chew him up so you can continue.

SSRM's are a part of the game, and their guided death is also a part of it. This is all part of the metagame. I cannot support the idea of 'breaking' SSRMs so light mechs have an easier time running around alone without support. You cannot have a discussion about changing SSRM's without also including why this change should also be for LRM's.

If you can give me a proper example of why SSRM's are broken, other than they kill lights, then I'd be happy to discuss and review that.

My 2 cents.

So you believe that because they can kill lights, with virtual impunity, they're not broken? Irrationally hate lights much?

[Dexion]

While I agree that a better mechanic is needed, I don't see us getting one anytime soon. I good middle ground, would be having All lock on weapons require a re-lock after being fired. And lights can kill KTO's... it makes for an epic duel when it happens (Light stays outside 270m).

That said, if you are in a light and you see a streak KTO... run away. We can't catch you. You'll take some damage, but you'll live. Which is more then can be said for us if we round a corner and find an atlas.

[FrDrake]

Kunae, on 02 October 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

If TT is a justification that you are using, then let's have all weapons auto-hit random locations. Just lock onto your target with your Stalker or Atlas and let fly... everything hits. It's ok, it's random locations. Can you see the illogic in this?

No the argument is that TT rules are less effective at killing mechs than what we have in MWO. I'm not saying TT rules should dictate how weapons behave in the game. I thought it was a known and valid point that by using pinpoint and not TT rules, that players have become far more deadly than mechs in TT ever were.

[D1G17AL]

Kunae, on 02 October 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

So you believe that because they can kill lights, with virtual impunity, they're not broken? Irrationally hate lights much?

What do you have against people acknowledging the META game? Seriously, we've proven your argument mostly invalid. In a light mech it ends up being your fault if you get eaten by a kintaro or some other dedicated light killer build.

IT'S YOUR OWN FAULT.

[Farpenoodle]

Kunae, on 02 October 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

No, if a fresh Jenner and a fresh 5-streak Kintaro face off, the Kint will always win.

There's this thing called range, and one of those mechs is faster than the other and has jump jets. The dynamic changes when other mechs are involved. So as always, Teamwork is OP.

[Mystere]

Kunae, on 02 October 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

Is there a highly specialized Assault killer? How bout a Heavy-killer... I am sure we've got some of those.

Why do you think it's necessary to have this type of mechanic in the game?

Yes, it's called a 6x(ER)PPC Stalker shooting anyone in the back.

Kunae, on 02 October 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

No, if a fresh Jenner and a fresh 5-streak Kintaro face off, the Kint will always win.

Not if the Jenner is able to stay away from the SSRMs range.

Edited by Mystere, 02 October 2013 - 12:45 PM.

[Deathlike]

I think people are missing part of the point that Streaks "always work on the target", barring actual obstacles.

Even LRMs don't have that same effectiveness, and the only way to make it optimal is with a TAG spotter.

The Streak mechanic itself isn't really that OP IMO, but the overbuffed damage is part of the problem. Had it been set to 2.0, it wouldn't make the Catapult-A1 Champion that debuted as effective as it could be.

Edited by Deathlike, 02 October 2013 - 12:44 PM.

[Kunae]

FrDrake, on 02 October 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

No the argument is that TT rules are less effective at killing mechs than what we have in MWO. I'm not saying TT rules should dictate how weapons behave in the game. I thought it was a known and valid point that by using pinpoint and not TT rules, that players have become far more deadly than mechs in TT ever were.

I agree with you. And that somewhat validates my proposal. Just because streaks are in TT, does not mean they need to be in MWO. Also, just because streaks auto-hit, all missiles, in TT, does not mean they should necessarily do so in MWO.

I would be satisfied if they returned streaks to the functionality of Closed Beta, even if Paul thought they were broken at that time.

Farpenoodle, on 02 October 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

There's this thing called range, and one of those mechs is faster than the other and has jump jets. The dynamic changes when other mechs are involved. So as always, Teamwork is OP.

Wow, really? You are so smart... do you have a newsletter I can subscribe to?

You don't always have the option to run away.

[Farpenoodle]

Kunae, on 02 October 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

Wow, really? You are so smart... do you have a newsletter I can subscribe to?

You don't always have the option to run away.

I said the dynamic changes when there's other mechs involved right? Your statement was that one on one the Kintaro always wins. Which is patently false.

[Kunae]

D1G17AL, on 02 October 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

What do you have against people acknowledging the META game?

Oh please.

When PPC's and gauss reigned supreme, what did you have against acknowledging that META game? Fixing things, for the better, only improves MWO and makes it stronger.

Farpenoodle, on 02 October 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

I said the dynamic changes when there's other mechs involved right? Your statement was that one on one the Kintaro always wins. Which is patently false.

No, my statement was that 1v1 the Kintaro always wins, which is patently true. I made no assertions as to when multiple mechs are involved.

Edited by Kunae, 02 October 2013 - 12:48 PM.

[Ngamok]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 02 October 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

l o l

<-o->