30 replies to this topic

[Carrioncrows]

Edit. Apparently they deleted my other post instead of this one.

ok.

Here is my issue with Crimson Straight.

It's a beautiful map, with lots of great textures and good buildings, right up to the point where you realize none of that is being utilized. The entire map where you fight is WIDE OPEN with zero cover.

Which means brawlers mechs are absolutely screwed on this map. They don't have a way to get into the fight without crossing the no-mans land and getting annihilated by sniper and lrm mechs.

Now this makes it great if you are a Sniper or LRM support mech but If you are a brawler, this map becomes thee absolute most frustrating map in the game.



I am using an older screenshot here but it still holds true. The Pass, above the docks and below the docks there is absolutely zero cover for a brawler mech to try and advance into range.

Even Aspen has a route and method that brawlers can use to advance on the enemy without crossing some sort of no man's land and getting absolutely decimated by enemy snipers and LRM mechs.

If you drop in C.S. as a brawler mech you have two choices.

Choice A. Hang back and watch as your team is whittled away and picked apart by sniper fire.

or

Choice B. Attempt to charge across no man's land to try and get in range.

Good luck with either of those.

A light pilot with a lot of speed may be able to manage it, but a hunchback going 64 kph is going to be decimated attempting to push into range.

So here is how we fix it.



What we do here is add a lot more cover.

A Lot.

As you can see I added more ships.
Now these ships are the lowest points so they only really provide cover to people in the water, people across either side of the bay are still able to snipe each other unobstructed.

Also we add a ton more cover to both on the docks and under the docks to at least give brawlers a path to advance to at least getting within range utilize some cover.

Also the Pass should have a lot more structure up there as for a short cut for brawler, it isn't. It's way too open.

There should be at least one path available for brawlers to play on this map too!

You might be one say "Just wait, you'll get used to it!" or "You just have to learn the map, bro"

None of that changed geometry, cover won't randomly sprout up because I know the map better.

There physically isn't a ROUTE for a brawler to take that doesn't involve crossing 500+ meters of open ground with no cover. Even below the docks there is zero cover, those poles do nothing. At least add some walls down there, maybe some stacks of crates or containers, or structures. Something to help the brawlers out.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 02 October 2013 - 05:16 PM.

[Carrioncrows]

Ok apparently when I accidentally created two threads, they deleted the one with content in it, so I had to remake it.

[Livewyr]

Can't really say I disagree with the additions.

[LaserAngel]

Sounds good. Just like the old Forest Colony water. Does PGI have any barge models? Not everything needs to be a ship.

[Steelgrave]

I honestly love the map and can't say I've had the same experience. Every drop on it so far has turned into a hockey game...if you know what I mean.

[General Taskeen]

You know what would be cool?

Ships in the bay, but also much deeper water that can submerge an entire Mech. Amphibious Mech assault!

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

You seem to be ignoring all the heavy cover along the coastline. Sure it's less direct going from the NW spawn to the NE capture point (compared to crossing the water), but you have very heavy cover (including significant overhead cover) if you stick with the shore.

Plus, there are two ways through the mountains (aside from the tunnel system). You only mention the pass, and ignore completely going through the city around the mountains.

You also seem to forget that no sane hunchback build goes less than 80 kph - even the AC20 HBK-4Gs can pack a 250 or larger engine and still carry plenty of MLs and ammo.

All that said, I quite like your idea to turn the bay into an actual shipping hub (like it's supposed to be). Barges (especially ones with large flat areas that could be jumped on to), both floating and sunken, should be added both for game play and for flavor.

[Dexion]

I actually kinda agree... I love the map, but that center path needs some cover. I would suggest high voltage towers, transmission cables or maybe an over head cargo handler system. A pair of Jaggers or stalkers can hold that pass against much greater forces.

[ShinVector]

Blood Bay !

[Ingvay]

I actually love the map and find cover to be decent in all but the center pass. But the extra ships in the bay would be an easy and great edition. There are plenty of ways to get from one side of the map to the other, not just that center pass.

[Duncan Jr Fischer]

Stating there is zero cover is certainly an overreaction. There is cover, and I like how it is placed, but being a brawler myself I'd like to have some more for certain. And OP offers some interesting solution to that.

But ships.. We already have a ship in Forest Colony, a ship in a THREE meter deep water. I hated it in MW4 and I definitely hate to see knee-deep water in MWO, considering this water is not interactive.
No more ships in a puddle, please. Give us deep water at last, or use something better than ships for cover, because it is embarrassing and ruins immersion.

[Carrioncrows]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 02 October 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

You seem to be ignoring all the heavy cover along the coastline. Sure it's less direct going from the NW spawn to the NE capture point (compared to crossing the water), but you have very heavy cover (including significant overhead cover) if you stick with the shore.

Of course there is lot of cover on either side, but there is zero cover in the middle. (What I mean by Zero cover is Insignificant cover, it's like hiding behind a light pole, no matter which way you twist someone is nailing some portion of your mech.)

So what are you supposed to do as a brawler?

Wait them out? Try and rush the Gap?

Both of these are bad ideas. As i've mentioned every other map in the game has at least 1 way that brawlers can advance under cover to get into range, CS doesn't.

[Lupin]

Nice map, but yes open water needs cover.

Also on conquest mode is it me or are they all the bases one side of the hill closer to the top of the map?

Edited by Lupin, 03 October 2013 - 04:17 AM.

[Walks_In_Circles]

As a sniper, I can agree that this map is dominated by long range to a certain extent. The docks are not a good place for sniping, however if you are on top of the docks, you can easily hold it until an enemy gets on to it. under the docks seems to be a brawlers dream. Whenever I go down there, I get annihilated. I concede that the water is bad. When I first saw it, I knew I'd be dead the second I stepped out into it.

I like the idea of deeper water, if your mech is completely submerged, why do you need ships?

[WM Wraith]

General Taskeen, on 02 October 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

You know what would be cool?

Ships in the bay, but also much deeper water that can submerge an entire Mech. Amphibious Mech assault!

This would be cool - but make the TT rules be intact. Take water damage, the area where damage is taken floods and all proper damage impacts ensue.

Underwater battle would be pretty awesome also....please, pretty please consider.

[Fut]

Carrioncrows, on 02 October 2013 - 11:15 PM, said:

Of course there is lot of cover on either side, but there is zero cover in the middle. (What I mean by Zero cover is Insignificant cover, it's like hiding behind a light pole, no matter which way you twist someone is nailing some portion of your mech.)

So what are you supposed to do as a brawler?

Wait them out? Try and rush the Gap?

Both of these are bad ideas. As i've mentioned every other map in the game has at least 1 way that brawlers can advance under cover to get into range, CS doesn't.

Maybe it's time to build your Mech with a more balanced load-out?
You're not always going to be dropped into ideal conditions for your exact play style - adapt to a balanced load-out, or get ****** when the situation isn't to your exact liking.

[Draxist]

funny, I was just reading somewhere about someone complaining that LRM mechs have no use due to the large amount of brawling in the center "Under or in cover" with no way to get around it and provide fire support.....so does that means this map is balanced then in regards to LRM's?

[Barrett]

Quote

much deeper water

Like in River city at the bridge? That spot can make a spider / Jenner disappear.

Personally I like the new map and this is coming from an Atlas Pilot cruising at 48km/h.
Just use the tunnel or ER Lasers...if all else fails: Let the new players be the meat shields.

[Tom Sawyer]

Having played this map just ONCE after 30+ games how about bumping it up on the ratio

[Gevurah]

This is an issue of tactics. 95% of my builds are brawlers (ex: triple lbx ilya) and every single one does exceedingly well on this map. Yes, there are areas that are certainly a negative (my first time coming out of the tunnel into the parking garage, for instance), but the vast majority of the time I can find my way to advantageous terrain... it is a city, after all; there's a significant amount of cover available.

Actually, if anything, I have seen the virtual nullification of sniper and LRM builds. There's an abundance of overhead cover from LRMs and too much cover from the few points where one can snipe (example, water) which also leads you wide open.

As it is, there's so many lanes of travel that one can basically move unimpeded under complete visual 'fog of war' cover to tooth-smacking range. Once there, if you held the initiative and picked the terrain of your choosing you can really break their backs with your brawler lance(s).

And fwiw, I've played this map 9 times - and won 7.

Crimson Strait 9 7 2 3.50 00:55:15