19 replies to this topic

[t0b4cc0]

Hi!

I just watched a game from the recent tournament, got excited and went into the mechlab.

So i did come out with this: HGN-733C

Yes i just took jaegerXII mech and put the same weapons on it...... and then started to play around....

My first question is, is it bad to have a XL engine? (because i often read that you need to be careful and stuff like that....) Do ppl wiht xl engine die faster or make easier targets?
When do i take a SDT over a XL engine? (if price does not matter)

Is it always beneficial to have the bap? Because on all the similliar builds there is no bap.
I mean the only thing i can think of swapping it out for is another jumpjet? (that does give bette rjump bonus right?)

How much AMS ammo is too much? I read i have 1000 ams ammo. Thats incredible much isnt it? A second slot of ams ammo wouldnt be too beneficial for most mechs right?


To my loadout..... would it be better now to swap out the bap, and one ac/5 ammo slot for another heatsink? ( i think i actually dont really care bout targeting enemys too much if i snipe at like 15 hundred range... and it costs 2 slots!!! and i think 120 ammo for the ac is more than enough)

I cant really read the heat-meter. What does 50% cooling mean compared to 75? i cant get hotter than that? so its "heat stable" so to say?

reagards t

[Redshift2k5]

XL engines are high risk:high reward. If you lose a side torso, you're dead. A standard engine will survive with the loss of a side torso. The XL does allow for more guns, more speed, etc so you can be a more effective combatant with an XL, unless you die from a side torso.

Take a Standard to maximize survivability; take an XL to maximize weapons/engine/weight. some mechs do XLs better than other due to their shape.

BAP helps to lock on with streaks, extends sensor range, and gives you faster enemy targetting data (where they are damaged/what their loadout is). BAP can also counter an enemy ECM at near range. In a way it is always beneficial; but it is not always able to fit in every build. some builds benefit more from more ammo or more heatsinks instead. If you have SSRMs then a BAP is a must-have.

I usually only run 1 AMS ammo whenever I run an AMS. I prefer to use big rocks/buildings for cover instead of equipping an AMS.

Your build says it has five whole tons unspent. If that's actually your build in-game I think you have a lot more modifications needed than just dropping the BAP. I'm no expert in Highlander builds, though. Your weapons don't require a target lock so I don't think you need a BAP at all.

Edited by Redshift2k5, 03 October 2013 - 03:28 PM.

[Egomane]

I had a nice post almost ready for a reply and then the post of Redshift popped up.

Listen to him, he is one of the most helpful users around.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

Re: heat-meter - do you mean the one in the Smurfy mechlab?

It works slightly differently to the one in-game. As I understand it, the Smurfy one tells you how close to heat-neutral you are (with 100% being neutral, and anything over meaning you will find it difficult to generate heat at all).

If you click the 'Weaponlab' button at the top of the screen, it will give you more detailed information on your heat capacity for a build, your dissipation-per-second, and how long it would take to overheat if you fired your weapons continuously. Adjusting the sliders at the top (where 100% = fire immediately on cooldown) will show you which weapons are affecting your heat load the most, and what your efficiency becomes if you don't use certain weapons - or simply don't fire them while cooling off.

[t0b4cc0]

Redshift2k5, on 03 October 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

Your build says it has five whole tons unspent. If that's actually your build in-game I think you have a lot more modifications needed than just dropping the BAP. I'm not expert in Highlander builds, though.

no its just my first try to build a mech in the browser on this page

ty that have been alot answers and now i understand the other builds wich are perfectly utilizing everything!

[IllCaesar]

You may do well to move the AC5 ammo out of your and into your legs. Ammo can always explode if the armour on the component containing it is destroyed, unless you're using CASE that is. Since you're using an XL engine you'd damage your side torso, which is more dangerous than your center torso even. If your right arm goes, so does your right torso because of the ammo explosion, whereas if they're in your leg, they'll only explode if somebody strips the armour off your legs. Nobody aims for the legs on an Assault unless the legs are currently in pretty bad shape. Today is the first time I've played where I intentionally aimed at an Assault's leg, a Highlander-HM, no less, because everything was armoured-yellow, except for his right leg which armour was stripped and the left leg which was orange. That is the only time I've done it in MW:O That kind of scenario is the only instance in which somebody will aim at your legs. Your legs will get shot at more often because you'll be jump-jetting around, but not on purpose - its probably the safest place to store the ammo on this particular mech. It'll keep you from basically imploding if your right arm gets taken out.

Additionally, you have 5 tons left. Thats good. You have zero slots left. That is unfortunate. I tinkered in smurfy to find anything I could do to utilize the remaining weight, but I couldn't find anything that didn't involve replacing one or both AC5s. I know Assault mechs are not my strength, and I've not even used the Highlander in MWO (although Heavy Metal looks damn good), so I'll leave the suggestions to other players. However, I will say, while I'm just an average pilot at best, I could tear you to pieces in a light mech. The PPCs won't hit within 90m, and its difficult to hit a fast, moving target with AC5s, so just for the time being, try to stick close to another teammate so you're not left for the buzzards, or rather, the Ravens.

Edited by MarsAtlas, 03 October 2013 - 04:08 PM.

[Enialis]

The BAP is generally viewed as a must-have if you're using Streaks, which won't fire without lock, otherwise it's generally not used.

XL engine use is highly dependent upon the chassis & the role you want to perform. Mechs that have very prominent CT's (ex: Catapult, Dragon) don't lose a lot of taking the XL. Others that have either huge side torsos or carry most of their weaponry there (ex: Hunchback, Atlas) usually don't as it drastically reduces their life expectancy. There are exceptions (Jagermechs often use XL's due to the firepower gain, despite huge side's) of course. It's a judgement call based on how much you gain by using the XL, in speed and/or increased firepower, compared to how much more vulnerable the XL makes you.

[Cerberias]

XL jagers are glass cannons, but without a huge increase to damage and a bit of speed instead. Great if they're not being shot at...

[scJazz]

To add to the discussion...

When is XL preferable to STD (standard = STD not SDT)? When the shape of the mech allows or even encourages it. You can view this thread the Guide to Hit Box Localisation

http://mwomercs.com/...x-localisation/

Take a look at the Catapult and the Stalker specifically. You will notice that the Center Torso on the Catapult is enormous while the Side Torsos are small. The Stalker is the exact opposite. Generally speaking... XL Engines on a Catapult are good, on a Stalker it is bad. XL is used on all Light Mechs, Cicadas, Blackjacks, Catapults, Quickdraws, Kintaros, Victors, and Awesomes frequently. This list is not complete and doesn't account for certain configs. Still if you compare the Guides pictures to ones I haven't mentioned you should get the idea.

BAP is required for Streak SRM use and to some extent LRMs (you need it if you do not have the Advanced Targeting Range module). Other mechs use it because it speeds up targeting info. Which leads to your Highlander as an example. With all of its weapons on the Right side which anyone who targets it can plainly see, if they are not New Players, the primary target will be the Right Torso rather than the Center Torso. This make your design particularly fragile with an XL Engine. My mouth is in fact watering to take my Jenner out for a spin in the hopes that I find a Highlander like that

The Heat Efficiency in Smurfy should be around 50% and translates to the idea that you can fire all of your weapons half the time without overheating or fire everything twice and overheat. All of my builds have a Primary (hot/long range group) and a (short range/cool group). It is a fairly common theme in builds.

Below is a HGN-733 Build illustrating both what has been mentioned in this thread and including your own ideas. It isn't perfect nor is it intended to be.

HGN-733C Build Concept
48% cooling efficiency firing everything with Basic Skills. 2 or 3 obvious weapon groups, 2 AC5, PPC, and 3xStreaks. I would assign them in that fashion. Long range 2 AC5s + PPC, Short Range 2 AC5s + Streaks this is also the cool group which can be fired by itself for 3 and a half minutes with Basic. Ammo in legs, CT, and Left Torso. Streak ammo split CT/LL, CT ammo used first and padded against a probably empty AC5 Ammo. Left Torso AC5 ammo padded with everything, it will be used after the CT ammo. Light mechs will not hang out around an Assault firing 3xSSRMs and 2 AC5s for any length of time

Again the above design is not ideal. I'm just illustrating what you thought up against other advice and demonstrating the Build Concept.

[Vanguard319]

Generally, you see XLs on light mechs like the raven, as they tend to benefit from the reduced weight, and most players target their legs anyway. With heavier chassis, it depends on whether you favor more tonnage for firepower and ammo, or more survivability. If you're very good at spreading damage around your mech, it's less of a liability.

[Kolia Mtl]

Try this instead:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b3e2a527c7a2b20

Switch to Standard structure and add some heat sinks.

As for MarsAtlas' comment on leg, it is a good place to store ammo. It is also a very good target in many situation. Like he said, most people do not target the legs so they often neglect to put more armor there.

I will usually send a salvo on one leg and if the armor goes to amber, I'll concentrate on one leg at a time and get an easy(ishh) kill.

This works particularly well when you drive a light and face a Heavy or Assault Mech as you can run around him and keep targeting the same leg.

Edited by Kolia Mtl, 03 October 2013 - 07:41 PM.

[Johnny Reb]

Egomane, on 03 October 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

I had a nice post almost ready for a reply and then the post of Redshift popped up.

Listen to him, he is one of the most helpful users around.

Red and Koniving are the 2 you should listen to!

[Sadistic Savior]

t0b4cc0, on 03 October 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

My first question is, is it bad to have a XL engine?

It depends on your role. If you are brawling, yes, it is a bad idea, because it doubles (or more) your vulnerability. Instead of legs/CT/head to kill you I have CT/RT/LT/Legs/Head to kill you. And Torsos are the easiest area to hit.

As an attacker, I love fighting people with XL engines, because they are much easier to kill. I only have to take out any torso to kill them.

Quote

Do ppl wiht xl engine die faster or make easier targets?

Yes to both. because destroying any torso now results in a kill...I no longer have to aim as carefully, because I can potentially kill with any torso shot. Especially from the back.

Quote

When do i take a SDT over a XL engine? (if price does not matter)

Always. Unless your build actually needs XL.

And some do. Support mechs or scouts might have a use for it, since they will not be hit as easily or as often. But it will always make you more vulnerable and easier to kill. But for some builds, the trade off is worth it.

I consider XL engines to be something only advanced players should mess with.

Quote

Is it always beneficial to have the bap? Because on all the similliar builds there is no bap.

BAP is a specific tool for a specific purpose. If your playstyle does not require it, there is no need to have it. BAP is mostly for support or maybe spotters/scouts.

Quote

How much AMS ammo is too much?

I have never run out of AMS ammo, even once. I have never seen anyone else run out either. I would say more than 1 ton is a waste.

Quote

To my loadout..... would it be better now to swap out the bap, and one ac/5 ammo slot for another heatsink?

Unless your build is for a purpose that requires BAP, I would get rid of it and use that weight for armor or ammo or weapons or heatsinks instead.

Quote

I cant really read the heat-meter. What does 50% cooling mean compared to 75? i cant get hotter than that? so its "heat stable" so to say?

Heat is the same for everyone. But the better your ratio (the more heatsinks you have), the faster you will shed heat.

If heat goes beyond maximum for more than a few seconds, you will start taking damage. And yes, you can kill yourself this way. Usually this will only happen if you override a shutdown though. On some maps (like the Volcano map) there are areas which can spike your heat up enough that you can take damage.

[Sadistic Savior]

Redshift2k5, on 03 October 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

XL engines are high risk:high reward. If you lose a side torso, you're dead. A standard engine will survive with the loss of a side torso.

I would add, a standard engine can allow you to survive with most of your body gone.

At one point my hunchback was missing one leg, both side torsos, and both arms. CT, one leg, and my head were all that was left. I was still able to fight (Med pulse in head) and even move. If my mech was jump capable, I'd even have been able to jump. You could never do that with XL...I would have been dead long ago.

[ICEFANG13]

This is a more optimized build. It loses BAP and 2 HS, but maintains its speed and changed to a STD engine (which is a good thing in a highlander). If you decide you really like the BAP, you can drop the AMS instead.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9788c75bd5305f9

If the HS are important to you, and you would exchange the AMS for BAP, you could also do this.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5f3426df812d53d

Its funny how often people shoot unarmored parts, sometimes I like to leave 1 armor only on those parts so when they get hit, people think they've found a prize.

Edited by ICEFANG13, 04 October 2013 - 07:34 AM.

[t0b4cc0]

MarsAtlas, on 03 October 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

The PPCs won't hit within 90m, and its difficult to hit a fast, moving target with AC5s, so just for the time being, try to stick close to another teammate so you're not left for the buzzards, or rather, the Ravens.

Yeah its built to stay in 2nd - 3rd line in a safer spot, with teammates around who can deal with lights.

Its to dish out damage from a long range on the big guys who step too far forward

Sadistic Savior, on 04 October 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

Heat is the same for everyone. But the better your ratio (the more heatsinks you have), the faster you will shed heat.

If heat goes beyond maximum for more than a few seconds, you will start taking damage. And yes, you can kill yourself this way. Usually this will only happen if you override a shutdown though. On some maps (like the Volcano map) there are areas which can spike your heat up enough that you can take damage.

I understand heat in the game. But what does it mean on this site?
50% cooling means what?

Can i not overheat with taht build?

ty all again for the big help°

Edited by t0b4cc0, 04 October 2013 - 09:12 AM.

[Koniving]

Johnny Reb, on 03 October 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

Red and Koniving are the 2 you should listen to!

Thanks, but these guys basically had all the good stuff to throw out here.

I will give this build, however, which is largely based on my personal Heavy Metal rig demonstrated here.
Some results with what it's based on.




That's within 3 matches in one day (after tweaking the build to ditch the flamers) and trying to find the right balance of efficiency, ammo, and weaponry. (The second of those matches is on that video at the beginning, I spent most of it teaching the battlegrid and lazily chasing a Jenner so I didn't get much score. Think the damage was like, 8, as I barely grazed the Jenner with a fire AC/2s and shotgun pellets).

Edited by Koniving, 04 October 2013 - 09:40 AM.

[Sadistic Savior]

t0b4cc0, on 04 October 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

I understand heat in the game. But what does it mean on this site?
50% cooling means what?

Can i not overheat with taht build?

ty all again for the big help°

The numbers on the site are useless. I am not sure if it is deliberately like that, or they just don't have time to correct it. I would only go by in-game info.

[scJazz]

Sadistic Savior, on 04 October 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

The numbers on the site are useless. I am not sure if it is deliberately like that, or they just don't have time to correct it. I would only go by in-game info.

Actually, the numbers on the site are the only ones that are useful. In game Mech Lab doesn't correctly include beam time as part of the Cool Down for lasers.

50% on Smurfy means you are dissipating 50% of the heat you can generate. 100% means you are dissipating all of the heat you can generate and will never shut down. Click Weapon Lab to include Basic and Elite skills. You can also play around with turning weapons on and off there. You will see your heat efficiency update and get an idea of how long it will take to overheat firing everything.

[John MatriX82]

t0b4cc0, on 03 October 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

Hi!

I just watched a game from the recent tournament, got excited and went into the mechlab.

So i did come out with this: HGN-733C

Yes i just took jaegerXII mech and put the same weapons on it...... and then started to play around....

My first question is, is it bad to have a XL engine? (because i often read that you need to be careful and stuff like that....) Do ppl wiht xl engine die faster or make easier targets?
When do i take a SDT over a XL engine? (if price does not matter)

Is it always beneficial to have the bap? Because on all the similliar builds there is no bap.
I mean the only thing i can think of swapping it out for is another jumpjet? (that does give bette rjump bonus right?)

How much AMS ammo is too much? I read i have 1000 ams ammo. Thats incredible much isnt it? A second slot of ams ammo wouldnt be too beneficial for most mechs right?


To my loadout..... would it be better now to swap out the bap, and one ac/5 ammo slot for another heatsink? ( i think i actually dont really care bout targeting enemys too much if i snipe at like 15 hundred range... and it costs 2 slots!!! and i think 120 ammo for the ac is more than enough)

I cant really read the heat-meter. What does 50% cooling mean compared to 75? i cant get hotter than that? so its "heat stable" so to say?

reagards t

This HGN-733C is better, it's a waste to have endo steel with that config. You can get more DHS and more ammunition along with a second JJ for added jumpsniping capability and maneuverability, otherwise you can trade it for 2 more DHSs in the arm or use a dual UAC5 instead of it.

Fore the questions:
A) it depends; on certain mechs it's a way to go, in others is suicidal. EG: Dragons and Catapults usually go with XLs like there's no tomorrow. Most lights too. Cataphracts can do well, other mechs must trade the added vulnerability with speed (like a Victor with a 350 xl, if you go 300xl then you're as slow as anyone else with a STD engine, you're only more fragile so it doesn't pay off). On highlanders, where 90% of your firepower (I'm not talking about LRM boats) is in your RT, having a XL engine isn't bad, if you lose the RT with a STD what do you do weaponsless? Nothing.

BUT: let's keep staying in your initial build: HGN-733C once mastered (with speed tweak and so on) the latter wouldn't do bad and you can literally shield your right side by torso twisting without minding to lose either the left arm or the left torso, having basically the same ammunition amount, firepower and nearly the same cooling. Can you see the difference?

BAP: meh, 2 slots gone for a slight improvement in sensor range. Use it if you equip streaks or LRMs, or if you really have 1.5 tons free with two slots and you really don't know what to do with them. Otherwise invest in either advanced sensor range and/or target info gathering. Those two modules together do basically the same work of a BAP without weighting nor taking away any critical slot; they won't counter ECM under 150m though, but again, then we're talking of LRM or Streak boats.

C) 1k of AMS ammo for a single AMS is usually enough, 3 tons for dual AMS (Atlas K and STK 5S are the only mechs that can wield dual AMS). But unless in your elo level there's plenty of boats, get rid of it and learn how to use cover and break line of sight with those boats, you have extra weight and crit slots to play with this way.

D) You can even go beyond 100% heat. If you do, your mech will shut down automatically (unless you engage "O" -override-).

The mech when is way over 100% heat (even when shutdown) takes internal CT damage as long as you stay beyond 100% treshold. If you go over 100% during an override, you then get random internal damage, so that your cockpit or legs or arms or any other component may decide to blow up because of the heat. Use override to avoid shutdowns only when you're sure it won't go past 100% (or when it will go past it by few points) whenever you need a desperate last shot.

Learn how much your weapons heat up, so that if you are at 70% and you shoot the dual ppcs you get 100% then wait a little bit more and shoot them when your heat is @ 65% or shoot 1 of them or chain fire them (backspace sets chainfire on for a selected group column in your hud).