38 replies to this topic

[kapusta11]

I failed to see how overall increase in armor to match TT solves anything. If you make a chess FPS you can't keep the same rules but it doesn't mean you can't make it good.

Edited by kapusta11, 05 October 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[Lightfoot]

Clan Supernova: Stock Prime loadout is 6x ERLarge. There are lots and lots of boats in Battletech. It's not a problem. The solution is that the three weapon types have different strengths and weaknesses making a balanced loadout the best choice.

MWO uses 2xRecharge, but the mechs are too weak to support the style of gameplay that 2xRecharge creates, so the energy weapons are all heat-nerfed into being auxillary weapons for the unrestricted Ballistics. That works only if your mech has Ballistic hardpoints though. If not you get a loadout of sub-class auxillary weapons.

[culverin]

stjobe, on 05 October 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

1. Not all 'mechs can be diversified (all-energy 'mechs, all-ballistic 'mechs)
2. Boating shouldn't be such a problem in the first place, since it's in canon.
3. It's the broken heat system and pin-point accuracy that is the root of the boating problem, not armour values or armour types.
4. The only way we'd ever get rid of Ghost Heat is if PGI went back and redid their broken heat system, and that's about as likely as the Clans coming next month.

Yep, you're spot on!

kapusta11, on 05 October 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

I failed to see how overall increase in armor to match TT solves anything.

Increasing armor won't do anything significant.
What it does is make you take more shots, which spread out the damage which goes back to the problem with all the damage being focused!



Everybody who thinks boating is an issue, let's take a little quiz shall we?
Why are these mechs, all boats, NOT a problem on table top?

• Hunchback 4P (8 med)
  
• Annihilator (4 AC/10, 4 med)
  
• ANH-1E (4 PPC, 6 med)
  
• ANH-1G (3 Gauss, ER PPC)
  
• Annihilator C (4 UAC/10, 4 ER med) (Average 88 alpha! Max 108 alpha!)
  
• Annihilator C2 (4 Gauss, ER PPC) (75 alpha!)
  
• Nova (aka Black Hawk) (12 ER med) (84 alpha!)
  
• Nova Cat (2 ER PPC, 3 large)
  
• Hunchback IIC (2 UAC/20, 2 ER Med) (Average 84 alpha! Max 104 alpha!)

.
.
.
.
.
....
.
..

...

.
.
.
.

So why are these "boats" not a problem?
Because the weapons DON'T FREAKING HIT THE EXACT SAME SPOT!!!!!


Boating is only an issue because PGI didn't do a faithful translation.
Ignoring a core mechanic in a ruleset that hasn't changed for 30 years!


So what do we get?

Instead of cone-of-fire, we get perfect pin-point damage. Wtf?

Instead of a proper penalty-based heatscale, we get no penalties and ghost heat.

[kapusta11]

Ok if hitting one spot is a real problem than I want to see you making so with mixed loadout say ballistic which requires you to shoot in a spot, where enemy mech will be it time projectile hits, laser which requires to be locked on target and SRM that have slow missile speed and all in the same time. See my point now?

Cone-of-fire may fit automatic weapons but not a single-shot ones, maybe you meant recoil?

Edited by kapusta11, 05 October 2013 - 01:05 PM.

[WarZ]

kapusta11, on 05 October 2013 - 03:09 AM, said:

Reflective\Reactive armor. You would be forced to build jack of all trades mech instead of boating one type of weapon. The ability to choose which section of your mech you'd like to make Reflective\Reactive would make torso twist protection more important as well.

The formula is simple - both types of armor protect 50% more against the said weapons but weight 20 armor per tonn instead of 30 as it is now. That way you have some sort of disadvantage against the opposite weapon type damage unless you are willing to add more armor to compensate.

How do you like the idea?

Another lore item is power draw. If you read the blood of kerensky trilogy you find that the clan guass rifle is introduced. It requires so much power to fire, that the pilot cannot use any other weapons at the same time, AND for a couple seconds afterward. It hits hard, but it has a big power price to use limiting its use with other weapons.

So a basic mock up would be something like:
- An engine provides 100 power / second.
- A weapon like the gauss rifle,ac 20, and ppc's uses 60-75 power second.
The result is an inability to fire mulitple weapons of high power draw at the same time. Therefore stopping mass firing of a boated weapon system.

It basically does the same thing as the ghost heat system. BUT it does it better, more intuitively, and cleanly, without that messy monster that is ghost heat.

Ghost heat was a very sloppy band aid. Its extremely lame when compared to something as logical as a power draw. Plus the power draw gives much deeper levels and ability to customize the weapon balance.

How they missed this concept and why they ignored it is beyond me.

Edited by WarZ, 05 October 2013 - 02:23 PM.

[Lykaon]

kapusta11, on 05 October 2013 - 03:09 AM, said:

Reflective\Reactive armor. You would be forced to build jack of all trades mech instead of boating one type of weapon. The ability to choose which section of your mech you'd like to make Reflective\Reactive would make torso twist protection more important as well.

The formula is simple - both types of armor protect 50% more against the said weapons but weight 20 armor per tonn instead of 30 as it is now. That way you have some sort of disadvantage against the opposite weapon type damage unless you are willing to add more armor to compensate.

How do you like the idea?

This is also needlessly complicated for no real fix.
I was using an AC20 twin ER-PPC platform for months it's 20 ballistic and 20 energy so it's 30 vs any armor in your proposal with the added benefit of your suggestion of armor type being weaker per ton I would be back to 40 damage so no change.

[Karandor]

The problem is entirely the perfect convergence. MW2 got this right. The best MW2 pilots would fire in groups based on where the weapons were mounted and if you wanted to focus fire a CT you had to modify your aim for each weapon group.

The weapon physics were a bit dumb but it was pretty much impossible to alpha do to this fact. It also made it a much bigger transition between different mechs. It also gave a big advantage to the mechs with densely packed weapons.

IMO make a fixed convergence of torso mounted weapons and add convergence time on arm mounted weapons. If you manage to boat and alpha someone with 4 PPCs because you got them at your perfect convergence range that is awesome. If they're too close or too far you'll likely only hit with 1 or 2 if you try to alpha.

Of course if you can't aim in the current system you're not going to hit F all in the convergence system. Missiles and LBX become more attractive though.

This fixes so many problems in MWO I'm still shocked they haven't done it yet. Every FPS has cone of fire or even bullet drop (planetside 2) these days except MWO and people wonder why PGI have balance problems.

[WarZ]

Karandor, on 05 October 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

This fixes so many problems in MWO I'm still shocked they haven't done it yet. Every FPS has cone of fire or even bullet drop (planetside 2) these days except MWO and people wonder why PGI have balance problems.

Becauses to put it simply NO ONE likes an unintuitive system with built in penalties to "F" the player even more. Any game that uses a random hit component affecting your ability to hit where you aim, is complete BS. It sucks. A lot of people see convergence as this magical thing that will eliminate big alpha. All it will be is an annoying and frustrating mechanic that confounds a players ability to hit what they aim at. Making it more unintuitive. Making it unnecessarily hard to land a shot even close to where you want it to go. In other words majorly (big time) F'ing everyone in general, especially newer players who have enough to learn, all to address an issue that can effectively be dealt with in other ways.

One of the nice elements in this game is generally your shots will go where you aim. Go play WoT and enjoy the suckitude that is random hit. In that game stat wise I am a top tier player. I was usually top player any round. BUT, even being successful in that game I walked away because I cannot f'ing stand random hit elements in any kind of shooter.

And NO every FPS does NOT have a random hit element. Just because you were suckled on games that have it doesnt mean its a good thing. It just means you got fed shovel fulls of s*** and learned to like it. Thats hardly a good thing.

Edited by WarZ, 05 October 2013 - 07:17 PM.

[Mcchuggernaut]

I would love to have reactive armor right now, with the autocannon dominance that's going on atm.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Hmmm...did not realize boating was a problem. OP are you saying there were no 'boats' in BT lore? I am not a big lore junky but I seriously doubt that is the case.

[GalaxyBluestar]

there are very few potent boats right now PGI have nerfed indivdual values and overall mechanics that boats don't have much of a niche advantage over mixers like they used to. 12v12 teamwork has elevated the mixers too you can still have 6 ppcs hit you, it used to be one suicidal stalker but now it's 3 poptarts etc.

i'd actually like to see some of the boat roles return a bit, get rid of ghost heat but improve things to get the survival rating up if you do land on the wrong side of a niche boater.

i think this thread has the answers --> INTELLIGENT HITBOXES

[TychoTheItinerant]

Boating is not the actual problem. Boats are simply trading one thing for another: specialization in one role at the expense of being terrible at other roles. Boats are EVERYWHERE in the MW/BT lore, and they're damn effective when applied correctly. The real problem is every single ******* match is the same. It's all just skirmishing and capping, there is little real strategy, there are no "defense" and "offense" and "support", there is just "BE BETTER AT KILLING THAN THE OTHER GUY". Everything and I mean absolutely EVERYTHING in this game is designed as a half-assed Solaris match.

[kapusta11]

I'm not against boats I'm against them being the best way to go. With the system I propose (and no ghost heat) boats wil be more viable then they are now, they will have its purpose - to expliot mechs weakness and hunt them down. Hell, most of the games have different armor\ammo\whatever types, I don't get it why are you so opposed to my idea, its not even my, its in BT lore.

WarZs idea is geat as well if both of them were in game it would be much better. Instead PGI keeps inventing a wheel (a square one as it seems), most of you are perfectly fine with that and everyone else is a whiner.

Edited by kapusta11, 06 October 2013 - 12:31 AM.

[Hexenhammer]

Is reflective / reactive armor a solution or a bandaid?

[MustrumRidcully]

OneEyed Jack, on 05 October 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

If you're looking for a way to replace ghost heat, forget it. If PGI has one rule they stick by, it's "never go backwards." Removing ghost heat would be going backwards. PGI may make some stupid decision but, by god, they stick by em!

Repair & Rearm was the exception to the rule. One could also argue collisions was, but then, collisions are supposed to come back at some point...

[TychoTheItinerant]

MustrumRidcully, on 06 October 2013 - 01:21 AM, said:

Repair & Rearm was the exception to the rule. One could also argue collisions was, but then, collisions are supposed to come back at some point...

Until someone bumps into one of the devs and makes him cry.

[culverin]

kapusta11, on 05 October 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

Ok if hitting one spot is a real problem than I want to see you making so with mixed loadout say ballistic which requires you to shoot in a spot, where enemy mech will be it time projectile hits, laser which requires to be locked on target and SRM that have slow missile speed and all in the same time. See my point now?

Cone-of-fire may fit automatic weapons but not a single-shot ones, maybe you meant recoil?

No, I meant a cone-of-fire based upon movement.
Similar to current gen FPS games where running, and it's spray and pray.
Standing still and it's easier to "take aim".
Crouching and prone, and you're cone of fire gets smaller still.
In MWO, it could might shrink to perfect accuracy when standing still for let's say...3 seconds?


So that way if you want to "brawl", then you're doing it at 50% throttle to be more accurate.
If you want to be a long range sniper boat, that's ok too, But you need to be standing out in the open for 3 seconds.
There is a time, place and positioning for it.

This makes it so you can't quad-ERPPC boat and poptart with it at 750m.
Or worse off, have those ridiculous 12-man firing lines we see now.

WarZ, on 05 October 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

Becauses to put it simply NO ONE likes an unintuitive system with built in penalties to "F" the player even more. Any game that uses a random hit component affecting your ability to hit where you aim, is complete BS. It sucks. A lot of people see convergence as this magical thing that will eliminate big alpha. All it will be is an annoying and frustrating mechanic that confounds a players ability to hit what they aim at. Making it more unintuitive. Making it unnecessarily hard to land a shot even close to where you want it to go. In other words majorly (big time) F'ing everyone in general, especially newer players who have enough to learn, all to address an issue that can effectively be dealt with in other ways.

One of the nice elements in this game is generally your shots will go where you aim. Go play WoT and enjoy the suckitude that is random hit. In that game stat wise I am a top tier player. I was usually top player any round. BUT, even being successful in that game I walked away because I cannot f'ing stand random hit elements in any kind of shooter.

And NO every FPS does NOT have a random hit element. Just because you were suckled on games that have it doesnt mean its a good thing. It just means you got fed shovel fulls of s*** and learned to like it. Thats hardly a good thing.

Why do you think random hit component is a bad thing?
This isn't a Quake, Unreal Tournament area style shooter, it's a sim.
If the GUI shows the cone of fire, it will still be intuitive, the reticule must reflect your cone growing as you run, or jump. And shrink the slower you move.

Or do you even disagree with the current reticule shake when jump-jets are one?
Is that too "random" for you?
I agree, I don't like random shots either since I come from an Area shooter background, that's why I'm exclusively in my Jenner.
Just because you don't like the playstyle of random elements, doesn't mean it's not the solution to this problem.



Consider this.
PGI is bringing in elements of the table top into this game.
- Table top mech designs.
- Table top damage numbers.
- Table top heat on the weapons
- Table top mechanics for armor, crit damage.
- Table top damage table.


So if you want to know why this game currently has issues,
Is because non-pinpoint damage is a critical part of balanced based upon the rest of the other mechanics.

[Karandor]

WarZ, on 05 October 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

Becauses to put it simply NO ONE likes an unintuitive system with built in penalties to "F" the player even more. Any game that uses a random hit component affecting your ability to hit where you aim, is complete BS. It sucks. A lot of people see convergence as this magical thing that will eliminate big alpha. All it will be is an annoying and frustrating mechanic that confounds a players ability to hit what they aim at. Making it more unintuitive. Making it unnecessarily hard to land a shot even close to where you want it to go. In other words majorly (big time) F'ing everyone in general, especially newer players who have enough to learn, all to address an issue that can effectively be dealt with in other ways.

One of the nice elements in this game is generally your shots will go where you aim. Go play WoT and enjoy the suckitude that is random hit. In that game stat wise I am a top tier player. I was usually top player any round. BUT, even being successful in that game I walked away because I cannot f'ing stand random hit elements in any kind of shooter.

And NO every FPS does NOT have a random hit element. Just because you were suckled on games that have it doesnt mean its a good thing. It just means you got fed shovel fulls of s*** and learned to like it. Thats hardly a good thing.

Did I say random when talking about what should be done with MWO? No, it's not random it's just not perfect convergence at any range. IE. You need to know where different weapons on your mech will fire and at what range you have that perfect convergence.

Mechwarrior has never been balanced around being able to focus fire weapons perfectly. This is why ghost heat and all the other {Scrap} that people ***** about endlessly has had to be introduced.

I'll use a 4 PPC awesome as an example of how it would work. Say you have a PPC on both side torsos and one in each arm. The torso PPCs converge at 540m, the arm PPCs can converge at varying distances, say it takes a second or two (or maybe 1/2 second or even less) for the covergence to happen. At 540m your targetting works exactly as it does right now. Farther away the torso PPCs start to cross paths and you may be better off firing 3 PPCs and adjusting the arms aim to match the torso.

Good players will be able to adjust for these differences and hit with 2-3 PPCs at all ranges. What does this hurt? Since arm convergence isn't instantaneous poptarts will have problems. It will also make moving quickly in and out of cover more difficult since arms won't converge perfectly unless you give them some amount of time.

What would make this perfect is if players could set their torso convergence point in the mechlab for each weapon.

This actually gives the game a higher skill cap and makes brawlers more interesting. Damage in general gets more spread out and missiles and LBX are better.

[MustrumRidcully]

Quote

No, I meant a cone-of-fire based upon movement.
Similar to current gen FPS games where running, and it's spray and pray.
Standing still and it's easier to "take aim".

While movement modifiers are logical, they aren't really needed. There is already a lot of benefit when your giant walking tank is only moving back & forth between cover and delivering alpha strikes.

There are very few benefits to delivering sustained damage with chain-fire or mixed weapon fire.

Movement modifiers just make boating even more attractive. If you need to stop to reduce the COF effect, then having 3+ guns that you can all fire at once is much better than 2 guns needing to be fired separately.