532 replies to this topic

[verybad]

Sorry, but ERPPCs are still a decent weapon, and making them cooler would only get rid of any players using standard PPCs.. THe OP ignores the way people actually play, which is to stay under covr until they have a target, then fire a large shot of damage towards the target and get back under cover..

DPS is not how ERPPCs or other longer range weapons are fired. They're fired in high powered strikes.

Proof of the pudding is in that plenty of people (myself included) are still using the ERPPC. If it were overnerfed, then people would grab onto the PPC, or other longer range weapons. It's just fine as it is IMO.

Sure they run hot, butyour'e finding a target, hitting it, then getting back to cover while you cool don, NOT continuously firing.

DPS is not a very accurate system of seeing how Mechwarrior, (or in fact many other FPS games) work.

[Wolfways]

verybad, on 24 October 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

Sorry, but ERPPCs are still a decent weapon, and making them cooler would only get rid of any players using standard PPCs.. THe OP ignores the way people actually play, which is to stay under covr until they have a target, then fire a large shot of damage towards the target and get back under cover..

DPS is not how ERPPCs or other longer range weapons are fired. They're fired in high powered strikes.

Proof of the pudding is in that plenty of people (myself included) are still using the ERPPC. If it were overnerfed, then people would grab onto the PPC, or other longer range weapons. It's just fine as it is IMO.

Sure they run hot, butyour'e finding a target, hitting it, then getting back to cover while you cool don, NOT continuously firing.

DPS is not a very accurate system of seeing how Mechwarrior, (or in fact many other FPS games) work.

So if ERPPC's are your main weapons and something gets close to you where you can't hide behind cover (which happens in every match), you're just supposed to accept that you are about to die?

[Lupus Aurelius]

verybad, on 24 October 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

Sorry, but ERPPCs are still a decent weapon, and making them cooler would only get rid of any players using standard PPCs.. THe OP ignores the way people actually play, which is to stay under covr until they have a target, then fire a large shot of damage towards the target and get back under cover..

DPS is not how ERPPCs or other longer range weapons are fired. They're fired in high powered strikes.

Proof of the pudding is in that plenty of people (myself included) are still using the ERPPC. If it were overnerfed, then people would grab onto the PPC, or other longer range weapons. It's just fine as it is IMO.

Sure they run hot, butyour'e finding a target, hitting it, then getting back to cover while you cool don, NOT continuously firing.

DPS is not a very accurate system of seeing how Mechwarrior, (or in fact many other FPS games) work.

Balance is not about opinions on "how people play". But lets run with that for the moment, and look at what we currently see. Duall AC5/UAC5 builds everywhere, with no heat doing 10 damage every 1.5 seconds for 2 heat each time. Three matches this morning alone I saw dual Gauss Cats, 30 damage every 4.75 seconds for 0 heat. Even came across a couple dual AC10 builds, 20 damage every 2.5 seconds for 6 heat.

Guess how many dual ERPPC builds I saw? ZERO. I don't even use dual ERPPCs anymore, except on the Misery with a UAC5 and 2 medium lasers. And you have to chain fire the ERPPCs, even at range, because of the heat.

As stated earlier in this thread, DPS can't be ignored any more than alpha. At range, and the OP is all about long range weapons and heat, full alpha does not apply, unless all your weapons are long range. What becomes important then is being able to sustain fire with your long range weapons until the enemy closes. Once that occurs, alpha comes into play. But the AC mechs at close range can sustain that fire substantially longer than an ERPPC mech. So both at range and up close, ballistics excel way beyond the ERPPCs for versatility due to the current heat issues.

But, back to data. Using 2 ERPPCs, 3 volleys while moving will shut you down, or on a hot map. On a cold map, you'll get a 4th volley off, shut down, and take internal damage. During that entire time, any of the dual ballistic builds you see are firing faster for more accumulated damage, and not even getting close to overheating. And that is with the dual ERPPC mech having 20 DHS, vs the ballistic mechs having only the 10 engine DHS. It still shuts down with twice the DHS in 2 volleys, 4 if heat neutral map and not moving, but with internal heat damage if you do.

Twice as many DHS, and this is what happens - overheat for ERPPC mech, ballistic mech keeps on ticking...

That's not balance. Maybe if they did more damage, say 15, like a gauss.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 25 October 2013 - 08:38 AM.

[Vodrin Thales]

Wolfways, on 24 October 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

So if ERPPC's are your main weapons and something gets close to you where you can't hide behind cover (which happens in every match), you're just supposed to accept that you are about to die?

And what do you do if you are in a Cent running SRM's and ML's and you are caught in the open by a pack of LRM mechs?

Seems the same issue to me. If you load up on one specific weapon you must accept it's strengths and limitations and adapt you tactics accordingly. Much better than the situation where the ERPPC was good at all ranges (which is exactly what we had prior to the heat nerf).

[verybad]

Wolfways, on 24 October 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

So if ERPPC's are your main weapons and something gets close to you where you can't hide behind cover (which happens in every match), you're just supposed to accept that you are about to die?

Build a more balanced design, add some MLs or SRMs for short range

If you think you can get a one size fits all weapon, then too bad, you're playing wrong.

[Wolfways]

Vodrin Thales, on 25 October 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

And what do you do if you are in a Cent running SRM's and ML's and you are caught in the open by a pack of LRM mechs?

Seems the same issue to me. If you load up on one specific weapon you must accept it's strengths and limitations and adapt you tactics accordingly. Much better than the situation where the ERPPC was good at all ranges (which is exactly what we had prior to the heat nerf).

Not quite.
If you get caught in the open it's your fault because you chose to go into the open. Short range combat with no cover is the majority of most matches and hard to avoid.
And ERPPC's were never good at short range. Even with the lower heat you still couldn't keep firing them or you would overheat and shutdown, unlike AC's which can be used at long and short range without worrying about overheating.

[Wolfways]

verybad, on 25 October 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

Build a more balanced design, add some MLs or SRMs for short range

If you think you can get a one size fits all weapon, then too bad, you're playing wrong.

I only have ERPPC's (and 2xML's and 2xMG's) on my K3 because i like stock mechs. I would never use them otherwise as, just like LRM's, all they do is lower my damage per match.

And you can get one size fits all, AC's.

Edited by Wolfways, 25 October 2013 - 10:11 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Once again though, the issue isn't DPS. It's about damage per shot. Hence why 80 points in 12 seconds is significant. That's 4 sets of 20 points each with pinpoint accuracy over the widest spread of range available to any weapon.

That's why the only thing comparable as I pointed out is dual AC10s. Half the range, double the weight and ammo dependent but the only thing that can match that sort of damage to single hit locations across anything similar to the range.

Dual ERPPCs is a pure sniper build and I've seen a small number but not many. I've seen a couple in 12mans and seen them used well, they just need support if it turns into a brawl because they are so hot.

The tradeoff however is the ability to put 20 points in one shot to a single hit location at what is long range for LRMs.

This though is why more people are using PPCs, you've got the minimum range and shorter overall range but far more manageable heat.

Your argument is that the ERPPC should be just as viable as the AC10 - at a fraction of the weight, no ammo dependence and double the max range in addition to far more flexible hardpoint availability.

ERPPCs are a niche weapon, like LRMs and Gauss and still better than LPLs. They work and work well - they're just not good for boating or a match for brawling weapons due to heat. Nor should they be since at that point, once again, they'd be superior to every other weapon in the game.

So, again. No. ERPPCs don't get to be the best overall weapon in the game anymore. Attempting to use a slice of metrics to justify why we should go back to a system that is proven to be inferior isn't a logical argument.

We've already tested ERPPCs with lower heat. The result was bad and resulted in an inferior game experience, hence the change to the current heat setup. We already know what the results of your proposed changes are and much like 'lets just remove Elo' it is a request to go back to a failed system.

Edited by MischiefSC, 25 October 2013 - 03:00 PM.

[Amsro]

Wow this thread is still going on, pretty sure PPC's and ERPPC's are in the best place they have ever been and are no longer on EVERY MECH IN THE GAME!!!

What rock were you hiding under to claim you want them cool again? I see all the energy weapons being used now.

GG

[Shakespeare]

Besides, there's a lesson I've been getting over and over during late night/ early morning EST games: At or near the top, it really is ACs and PPCs, on 75% of the mechs. I played one game last night where two seperate 4-mans dropped against me, all loaded with PPCs in combination with AC5s or better. The last 5 minutes of the match, I didn't see a single missile or laser strike. Just PPC bursts and shells streaking across the sky.

So, two lessons there, really:
1.) Above a certain ELO (whether you belong there or not, can't say that I like dropping solo in those matches), it's PPCs and ACs or GeeTeeEffOhh
2.) So clearly, there are still advantages to carrying them, and they're not in need of a buff any time soon. This is not to say the heat system as a whole doesn't need work. But the time of tweaking heat for the energy weapons 1 at a time is probably done.

[Lupus Aurelius]

Shakespeare, on 25 October 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

Besides, there's a lesson I've been getting over and over during late night/ early morning EST games: At or near the top, it really is ACs and PPCs, on 75% of the mechs. I played one game last night where two seperate 4-mans dropped against me, all loaded with PPCs in combination with AC5s or better. The last 5 minutes of the match, I didn't see a single missile or laser strike. Just PPC bursts and shells streaking across the sky.

So, two lessons there, really:
1.) Above a certain ELO (whether you belong there or not, can't say that I like dropping solo in those matches), it's PPCs and ACs or GeeTeeEffOhh
2.) So clearly, there are still advantages to carrying them, and they're not in need of a buff any time soon. This is not to say the heat system as a whole doesn't need work. But the time of tweaking heat for the energy weapons 1 at a time is probably done.

Don't know why people insist on commenting on the PPC in this thread. The OP is very clear, as it's conclusion, that ERPPCs are too hot at 15 heat. Not PPCs at 10 heat.

Again, no claim had been made that PPCs are too hot or are not viable

Again, the OP's conclusions are that ERPPCs are too hot at 15 heat and are not viable compared to ballistics. Again, this specifically effects mechs that have no ballistic slots, only energy and missile slots.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 25 October 2013 - 03:52 PM.

[Lupus Aurelius]

MischiefSC, on 25 October 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

We've already tested ERPPCs with lower heat. The result was bad and resulted in an inferior game experience, hence the change to the current heat setup. We already know what the results of your proposed changes are and much like 'lets just remove Elo' it is a request to go back to a failed system.

No.

What was left after the ghost heat introduction, was the dual PPC / ERPPC and Gauss builds. Gone were the 4 PPCs builds, and even before ghost heat, you never saw a 4-6 ERPPC build, because even then they were too hot to boat them that way.

Changing the firing mechanism for the Gauss, and changing the projectile speeds for the Gauss and the ERPPC so they are 700m/s different, decoupled those weapons sufficiently to remove the possibility of alpha that combo.

And you still ignore that many mechs have no ballistics. Only energy and/or missiles, and those mechs have a distinct disadvantage under the current heat levels and also weapon speeds and cooldowns. Also, 20 damage every 4 secs for 30 heat, vs dual UAC5s, that is when they do not jam, can do 20 damage every 1.5 seconds for 4 heat with doubleshot. Pinpoint. What do we currently see going on atm, even in pug matches? Dual to quad ballistics, everywhere. They are now too good not to use.

You also consistently neglect that the figures in the op are based on:
-Dual Ballistic builds with the 10 engine DHS
-Dual ERPPC build with 10 engine DHS and 10 external DHS

And if those were the figures for both types on 10 engine DHS only, there would be no debate. Even if ERPPCs went back to 12 heat, the figures would be as follows:

1st volley - 24 heat
2nd volley - 34.4 heat
3rd volley - 44.8 heat
4th volley - 55.2 heat
5th volley - 65.6 heat

Still significantly high heat, considering that it is based on 20 DHS.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 25 October 2013 - 04:23 PM.

[LegoPirate]

for most of you, im "that guy". the guy that flies around in his 3D or 733c (formerly 732) and hits anything and everything with ppcs.

i started being a full time jumpsniper in april, so ive played pretty much every permuation there is. 3ppc 3Ds, 2ppc gauss, 3ppcgauss HGNS. nowadays i run dual ppc/ac5s on my 3Ds.

regardless of what build or mech it was, i always had 2 erppcs. i liked the range, and the lack of a minimum one was just a bonus.

when ERPPC heat jumped from 12 to 15, i spent a month and a half trying to adjust. managing my heat, moar coolshots. devising builds with ridiculous amount of heatsinks (i have a firebrand with 22 dhs and 2 erppcs, it still runs way too hot). then, a week ago i switched from ers to regular ppcs. yea, i couldnt shoot half the map anymore, but my rate of fire pretty much doubled. my damage numbers doubled pretty much from one simple change. and the minimum range is there on ppcs, but its something i control for.

there is no mech that i would ever run an ER over a regular ppc at this point. you cant run it alongside any other energy or missle weapons because of heat, and the weight of ballistics means you cant fit enough DHS to keep it cool anymore. not to mention that any time i fire both erppcs at ~50% heat, i instantly overheat, granted i power back up in a second, but i cant risk that second of getting ct cored.

15 heat is beyond insane. its just plain unusable.

[MischiefSC]

Lupus Aurelius, on 25 October 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

No.

What was left after the ghost heat introduction, was the dual PPC / ERPPC and Gauss builds. Gone were the 4 PPCs builds, and even before ghost heat, you never saw a 4-6 ERPPC build, because even then they were too hot to boat them that way.

Changing the firing mechanism for the Gauss, and changing the projectile speeds for the Gauss and the ERPPC so they are 700m/s different, decoupled those weapons sufficiently to remove the possibility of alpha that combo.

And you still ignore that many mechs have no ballistics. Only energy and/or missiles, and those mechs have a distinct disadvantage under the current heat levels and also weapon speeds and cooldowns. Also, 20 damage every 4 secs for 30 heat, vs dual UAC5s, that is when they do not jam, can do 20 damage every 1.5 seconds for 4 heat with doubleshot. Pinpoint. What do we currently see going on atm, even in pug matches? Dual to quad ballistics, everywhere. They are now too good not to use.

You also consistently neglect that the figures in the op are based on:
-Dual Ballistic builds with the 10 engine DHS
-Dual ERPPC build with 10 engine DHS and 10 external DHS

And if those were the figures for both types on 10 engine DHS only, there would be no debate. Even if ERPPCs went back to 12 heat, the figures would be as follows:

1st volley - 24 heat
2nd volley - 34.4 heat
3rd volley - 44.8 heat
4th volley - 55.2 heat
5th volley - 65.6 heat

Still significantly high heat, considering that it is based on 20 DHS.

Yes.

With double the range and no minimum heat ERPPCs are now, appropriately, either used in singles to give long range punch for light weight to an otherwise brawler build or on dedicated snipers.

Decoupling Gauss and PPCs was great - I'm not a fan of charge-up on Gauss but that's another issue. That's not the issue with ERPPCs.

The issue with ERPPCs is 10 points impact damage and >800m range with a lack of ammo. Without the existing heat issues then nobody has any reason to use ballistics, we'll be back to ERPPCs.

It's the ability to brawl and snipe better than any other weapon in the game that created the need to bump ERPPC heat.

PPCs are balanced now because of minimum range. AC10/PPC or dualUAC5 and 2xPPC builds are significantly weaker if you close to within 90m. They also need to close to 500m to poptart effectively, reducing the 'kill you from beyond most weapons range' problem that ERPPCs generated.

I absolutely agree that ERPPCs are not as viable as ballistics for all around overall combat. They're too hot. They do great damage from point blank to 800m but they're too hot to boat or brawl with effectively. As it should be. Ballistics self-police for boating issues by dint of weight, crit spaces and in the case of 2xAC20s ghost heat. PPCs at this point are about as effective as ballistics with a tradeoff of no ammo for a minimum range and a bit warmer. Large Lasers are a staple as are MLs, they're all pretty well balanced with each other.

ERPPCs did and would destroy the balance of all other weapons by producing a weapon with no drawbacks, awesome range, pinpoint damage, no ammo. That was the whole problem. Nobody used PPCs because ERPPCs did the same thing only with no minimum and half again the maximum range. There was no counter-balance to them, no tradeoff.

Their tradeoff is their heat. This keeps them from being better than every other weapon in the game.

Once again, the issue is pinpoint damage at range with a lack of ammo. If they were not crushingly hot there would be no reason to use anything else.

Damage, per shot, at 800M, beyond the range of any comparable ballistic or energy weapon, is the issue. It always was the issue. An AC20 with unlimited ammo that hits full damage at over 800M would be a stupidly unbalanced weapon. It was, it was a dual-ERPPC. That can not be a viable weapon or game balance suffers.

Two AC10s would be about 28 tons and 18 crit spaces, would have 1/2 the range and only good for 30 shots for the whole match. Your dual ERPPCs with 10 external DHS would be 24 tons and 36 crit spaces and have unlimited ammo. Again, with twice the effective range. Given the two choices the best option is obvious and was obvious for the whole time that ERPPCs had less heat.

At this point we're going in circles. I don't expect PGI to change ERPPCs to be cooler because, once again, we've already had that experience and it was a negative one. I get that you enjoyed it, most people didn't seem to. Having one weapon that's better all around than every other weapon negatively impacts game balance for most of us.

Edited by MischiefSC, 25 October 2013 - 08:19 PM.

[LegoPirate]

first, ac10s fire almost twice as fast as erppcs currently do, second, even with 12 tons invested in external DHS, erppcs are STILL not a viable weapon in a pair. and you cant use them alone with anything other then a pair of ballistics.

[Artgathan]

What if we extended the Ghost Heat Timer on ER PPCs?

Consider that currently you're penalized for firing 3 ER PPC within 0.5 seconds. What if we changed it to firing 3 ER PPC within 5-6 seconds AND dropped their regular heat generation somewhat?

This change would mean that they're still only effective at range, but not so hot that they're unusable at that range.

[MischiefSC]

LegoPirate, on 25 October 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:

first, ac10s fire almost twice as fast as erppcs currently do, second, even with 12 tons invested in external DHS, erppcs are STILL not a viable weapon in a pair. and you cant use them alone with anything other then a pair of ballistics.

Going to touch on this again.

It's not about DPS. Rate of fire isn't relevant to the issue of what makes ERPPCs with lower heat a problem.

Multiple ERPPCs should NOT be a viable weapon for anything BUT slow sniping and leave you at a disadvantage up close. That's entirely the point.

2ERPPCs are an AC20 with almost double the projectile speed and 3x the range, almost 6x the range if you don't mind reduced damage. With endless ammo.

If I recommended a Super AC20 with 1500 projectile speed doing 20 points at 810m for still just 14 tons but ammo dependent I'd rightly get laughed at. That it would totally destroy weapon balance. Why carry anything else?

Exactly like it was destroyed when ERPPCs had lower heat.

I should make this more clear.

I am absolutely against dual ERPPCs being a competitive weapon for both brawling and sniping. If you want to reduce heat then have it do 5 points on location and 5 points splashed in 1point increments at random across 5 touching hit locations, or give it a minimum range increased from a PPC comparable to its increased range so, what, about 120m minimum range in which it does no damage at all, or something similar. It needs a tradeoff for otherwise being the best possible weapon.

This isn't a new issue though. We've already had ERPPCs with 12 heat. It was terrible because at that point 2x ERPPCs was superior to any and all other weapon setups. 2xERPPCs gave you a brawling AC20 with unlimited ammo that did full damage out to 810m. This meant you could accurately and effectively snipe, hill-hump and jump-snipe well outside the viable range of any ballistic save AC2s - which, being pure DPS, are useless in a sniper exchange. With a faster travel-time and better range than even 4x AC5s two ERPPCs can drop 20 points to a single location at the same range at which a large laser does slightly more than 1 point of damage. It ruled the battlefield and made it near suicide to try and close with an enemy position if you were a brawler. You had about 500m to cross in which your weapons were at best minimally effective (if at all) but your enemy was dropping 20+ points on single locations, then dropping or stepping back into cover to cool for a few seconds. It ruined the meta for everyone who wasn't ERPPC sniping.

Again, I get that you want a primary weapon that does 20 points from pointblank to 810m and is dangerous past 1600m and has unlimited ammo and is effective both for brawling and sniping. I get that. It destroys game balance.

ERPPCs work out fine in singles, especially when supported by other weapons - just like ballistic AC10/AC20 builds do. The days of the ERPPC being the pinnacle weapon, which it is if it's viable in pairs, are over. It's been tried and found to be terrible.

[LegoPirate]

its not that erppcs arent dominant anymore. theyre simply worse then pretty much every other option. also, jumping from 12-15 heat is a pretty huge jump.

ac10s are a better option, regular ppcs are a better option. dual ac5s is a better option, dual uacs is a better option, ac20s are a better option. hell even ER large lasers are a better option, or even single ac5/uacs are better. they simply outpreform the ERPPC so thoroughly it doesnt even come close. not a single half decent player uses ERs anymore, in anything ever.

Edited by LegoPirate, 26 October 2013 - 12:54 AM.

[Hardes13]

Yeah PPC are dead.
I have easy the double and more damage with a Jäger with AC 5 od AC 10 than with PPC or ER PPC.
I think the reduction of the missle speed was the main hit to the ER PPC as a sniper. And ER PPC sniper mechs where the main problem.
I would realy like to see some changes here.
1. Why does the ER PPC has no min range but more max range?
I would like the normal PPC loose the min range ( perhaps even get back to 9 heat)
And 12 Heat and 90 m min range for the ER PPC.

[Lupus Aurelius]

MischiefSC, on 26 October 2013 - 12:33 AM, said:

Going to touch on this again.

It's not about DPS. Rate of fire isn't relevant to the issue of what makes ERPPCs with lower heat a problem.

Multiple ERPPCs should NOT be a viable weapon for anything BUT slow sniping and leave you at a disadvantage up close. That's entirely the point.

2ERPPCs are an AC20 with almost double the projectile speed and 3x the range, almost 6x the range if you don't mind reduced damage. With endless ammo.

If I recommended a Super AC20 with 1500 projectile speed doing 20 points at 810m for still just 14 tons but ammo dependent I'd rightly get laughed at. That it would totally destroy weapon balance. Why carry anything else?

Exactly like it was destroyed when ERPPCs had lower heat.

I should make this more clear.

I am absolutely against dual ERPPCs being a competitive weapon for both brawling and sniping. If you want to reduce heat then have it do 5 points on location and 5 points splashed in 1point increments at random across 5 touching hit locations, or give it a minimum range increased from a PPC comparable to its increased range so, what, about 120m minimum range in which it does no damage at all, or something similar. It needs a tradeoff for otherwise being the best possible weapon.

This isn't a new issue though. We've already had ERPPCs with 12 heat. It was terrible because at that point 2x ERPPCs was superior to any and all other weapon setups. 2xERPPCs gave you a brawling AC20 with unlimited ammo that did full damage out to 810m. This meant you could accurately and effectively snipe, hill-hump and jump-snipe well outside the viable range of any ballistic save AC2s - which, being pure DPS, are useless in a sniper exchange. With a faster travel-time and better range than even 4x AC5s two ERPPCs can drop 20 points to a single location at the same range at which a large laser does slightly more than 1 point of damage. It ruled the battlefield and made it near suicide to try and close with an enemy position if you were a brawler. You had about 500m to cross in which your weapons were at best minimally effective (if at all) but your enemy was dropping 20+ points on single locations, then dropping or stepping back into cover to cool for a few seconds. It ruined the meta for everyone who wasn't ERPPC sniping.

Again, I get that you want a primary weapon that does 20 points from pointblank to 810m and is dangerous past 1600m and has unlimited ammo and is effective both for brawling and sniping. I get that. It destroys game balance.

ERPPCs work out fine in singles, especially when supported by other weapons - just like ballistic AC10/AC20 builds do. The days of the ERPPC being the pinnacle weapon, which it is if it's viable in pairs, are over. It's been tried and found to be terrible.

Sorry, but most of what you present is subjective opinion of how things should be in your opinion. And as most subjective opinions, it ignores significant data.

You out and out state that they should be sub-optimal for builds, which leaves every non-ballistic mech also sub-optimal compared to ballistic mechs, which hardly indicates a balanced approach. You have admitted that they are too hot to be viable against ballistics, and that your opinion is that they should be that way, indicating a clear bias against ERPPCs.

You have ignored the fact that with the increase came a reduction of the projectile speed, reducing it's effectiveness in poptarting as well. Having run dual ERPPCs when heat was 11 and also 12 on Stalkers, which had no ballistics (before the Misery), even at 12 heat they had to be run as chain fire when combat closed, since all the other weapons on that non ballistic mech were energy and missile, both high heat items.

As far as ballistics being self policing, that is ludicrous, as can be seen with the current meta. If there was a firing delay on all ballistics, or ghost heat for using more than 1 in a certain time, or even jam if the ballistic fired for too long because the barrel distorted from heat during continuous fire, you would have an argument.

I typically dislike using personal experience when arguing an issue, but I have been running a dual AC5 build on a Thunderbolt, set on chain fire (2x AC5, 1 LL, 2x ML). Once combat gets close, all i have to do is hold the AC and ML buttons down and keep the crosshairs on the target, and i can perma-run that without ever overheating. Consistantly do high damage as things are shutting down around me. It's ludicrous and insanely OP, not only damage done, but the obvious disorientation that occurs to the enemy pilot as they get shake and bloom every .75 secs.

There is no governor on ballistics, other than the AC2, and that is done with heat also. In the OP, thee are 2 suggestions, reduce ERPPC heat, or bring ballistics more in line with AC2 heat.

Non ballistic mechs need to be as viable an option as ballistic capable mechs. ERPPCs should be balanced compared to the other long range capable ballistics. Long range capable ballistics are completely viable at close range with no limiter, ERPPCs are too high heat to be effective at close range. Gauss, AC2, have faster projectile speeds, AC5 UAC5 equivilent.

In BT, there were no beam durations, DHS acted as DHS, heat cap was a solid line and did not vary according to heat sink quantity. And turns were 10 seconds each. AC2, once every 10 secs, AC10, once every to secs, ERPPC, once every 10 secs, etc. With that heat system, mechs like the Awesome, designed as a PPC boat, were extremely viable, unlike MWO today. And heat was a limiter to ballistics as well. PGI's implementation of heat, as well as firing speeds, has radically changed weapon balance, heat no longer is the limiter to ballistics as well as energy weapons, when you had to make choices involving crits and heat.

Currently, any dual ballistic build can be run on the native 10 DHS in an engine, without additional heat sinks. Meanwhile, the ERPPCs with 10 more, that means 30 criticals and 10 tons, DHS can't even shoot 4 times without taking damage. In a real combat situation, heat from movement and environment will actually make that 2 times with overheat on the third volley. At close range, even an dual AC20 mech can continue to fire for much longer.

Again, balance is not a matter of opinion or your personal vision of how things should be. Balance is when there is no obvious superior meta. A non-ballistic mech should be as viable as a ballistic mech for long range and short range combat. Currently, by your own admission, they are not.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 26 October 2013 - 04:28 AM.