532 replies to this topic

[Shredhead]

You lost me at the mention of DPS.
At long and medium range DPS doesn't count in because with all those higher DPS weapons you can not reliably hit one section of your target like the PPC, while you're also never able to just stand there and and dish out damage for a prolonged time.
At short range, DPS of AC2s, UAC5s and AC5s is not sustainable because you can not hold aim on your target all the time, otherwise you'll be toast way before your perceived DPS advantage comes to bear.
You HAVE to factor in other mechanisms like the ability to torsotwist, pointed damage and manoeuverability. If you factor that in, the ER-PPC doesn't look so bad anymore. It could use a slight tweaking, like heat to 14 points to make it more viable, but that's it.

[Nryrony]

I even wouldn't mind if they increase the minimum range to 180 and add a 90 min range for the ER. (Even 300 would be ok, as long as its range would be increased..)

As long as SHS are viable and PPC won't run too hot or the effectiveness of heatsinks will be raised.


Its only balanced, since my small laser can't hit targets 1000 meters away...
In BTech, there where always different weapons for different ranges. Yet minimum range only apply's to LRMs and PPCs. Why exactly..?

Edited by Nryrony, 06 October 2013 - 02:13 PM.

[Razorin Faust]

A very pleasing, well argumented original post.

This also make the ppc issue glare, PPC are purposedly a fearsome and devastating weapon, Only matched in brute force by the AC/20.

Ballistic weapon should be, quick and heat efficient.
Energy weapon should be slow and fearfully damage dealing.

In this regard, the PPC critical slot should be of at least 4 or 5 but with a least a damage of 15. It also should transfer heat and jamming effect on the Hud.

Dont forget that , in regard of BT lore, it's not the actual weapon firing that cause heat, it's the fact the 'mech engine need to generate energy to reload the weapon.

[Panzerkampfwagen IV]

Razorin Faust, on 06 October 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

A very pleasing, well argumented original post.

This also make the ppc issue glare, PPC are purposedly a fearsome and devastating weapon, Only matched in brute force by the AC/20.

Ballistic weapon should be, quick and heat efficient.
Energy weapon should be slow and fearfully damage dealing.

In this regard, the PPC critical slot should be of at least 4 or 5 but with a least a damage of 15. It also should transfer heat and jamming effect on the Hud.

There are only a handful of mech that can 2x AC20.
Almost every mech in the game can 2-3x PPC

Let me get this straight, you are suggesting that we increase the PPC slots by 2, give it a 50% damage boost and overheat and jam your enemy's HUD? Not sure if trolling....

[Lupus Aurelius]

Asian Tupac, on 06 October 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

There are only a handful of mech that can 2x AC20.
Almost every mech in the game can 2-3x PPC

Let me get this straight, you are suggesting that we increase the PPC slots by 2, give it a 50% damage boost and overheat and jam your enemy's HUD? Not sure if trolling....

1st, - discussion is the heat of the ERPPC, not the PPC

2nd - discussion is concerning long range weaponry, and their balance.

Neither statement that you made applies, AC20 is short range, and nothing has been said concerning the PPC heat levels. Please actually read the OP and talk the topic, instead of trying to derail it with items that are not part of the discussion.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 06 October 2013 - 02:42 PM.

[Nryrony]

Asian Tupac, on 06 October 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

There are only a handful of mech that can 2x AC20.
Almost every mech in the game can 2-3x PPC

Let me get this straight, you are suggesting that we increase the PPC slots by 2, give it a 50% damage boost and overheat and jam your enemy's HUD? Not sure if trolling....

PPCs deal 10 DMG, AC20 deal well 20.

An AC20 amlost does almost out dps 2 PPCs! (They are even!)

No mech can sustain 4 PPCs, it doesn't matter if you salvo fire or not, its not possible.

[Razorin Faust]

Asian Tupac, on 06 October 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

There are only a handful of mech that can 2x AC20.
Almost every mech in the game can 2-3x PPC

Let me get this straight, you are suggesting that we increase the PPC slots by 2, give it a 50% damage boost and overheat and jam your enemy's HUD? Not sure if trolling....

Oh and I forgot to add the splash damage too. Of course this is only based over my MW2,3 , 4 and Living Legend expericence.

I am not trolling.

[aniviron]

Team Leader, on 06 October 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

Good post but.. I think thats the point. Even if they were overnerfed, they also have one of the longest ranges of any weapon so, yeah, high heat sniper weapon that just takes a while to shoot and always can shoot. I don't see a problem. Use backup weapons of put all your weight into DHS. Your choice.

That's the first thing that occurred to me too. Then I remembered that ballistics get three times the maximum stated range before damage drops off to 0; this means that while an AC10 does less damage at 810m than an ER PPC, as the range increases, the AC10 only catches up. The AC5, 2, and gauss all benefit from this even more, with their already considerably max effective ranges.

[Deathlike]

aniviron, on 06 October 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

That's the first thing that occurred to me too. Then I remembered that ballistics get three times the maximum stated range before damage drops off to 0; this means that while an AC10 does less damage at 810m than an ER PPC, as the range increases, the AC10 only catches up. The AC5, 2, and gauss all benefit from this even more, with their already considerably max effective ranges.

Well, here's something to think about.

At the ERLarge's max range, a Gauss Rifle is still able to deal ~50% of its max possible damage (~7.5 pts). For an ERPPC, I believe it's max range is about 25% of the Gauss Rifle's damage (~3.75 pts).

[Jake Sorren]

I agree with many things.
They run hot.
They are very hard to use because of this.

The way PGI has ballanced them is bad.

What should have been done was use the expanded heat scale that TT had (max of 30, or 40 before forced shutdown)

Using heat sinks to increase threshold is not the way to do it.
Use dissipation. Bring the heat sinks to 1, 2 dissipation (singles and doubles respectively) but keep the threshold static. Firing 3 ERPPCs was a good way to get yourself shut down.

The synergy with the current damage from overheat is quite nice this way. Fire an alpha that overheats you and you're now taking damage. It would remove the need for the ghost heat. It would remove the super high alpha builds from being useful beyond that first few volleys before they either chain fire or kill themselves by continuing to alpha strike.

[Lupus Aurelius]

aniviron, on 06 October 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

That's the first thing that occurred to me too. Then I remembered that ballistics get three times the maximum stated range before damage drops off to 0; this means that while an AC10 does less damage at 810m than an ER PPC, as the range increases, the AC10 only catches up. The AC5, 2, and gauss all benefit from this even more, with their already considerably max effective ranges.

Good point, wish I had included it, it's another benny, but thought it would detract from the main focus of the post.

[Gorgo7]

Yes, precisely! This ensures that Ballistic builds are not penalized while restoring parity with the energy builds.

[Livewyr]

When did Abrahms come back?


(ACs do need changed.. namely losing the 3x over-range and gaining some heat back...but ERPPCs are where they need to be IMO.)

[wintersborn]

Good work OP and I agree.

Even those of us that did not do your hard work can see that it is all about AC's right now in PUG's.

I would love to see this kind of math magic done with LRM boats to show why they went the way of the PPC boats in PUG's even though it is more convoluted that just heat/DPS effectiveness.

I may spend a few more days grinding CB's to build and test a few LRM boats but I don't have the magic math wand like you : )

[Livewyr]

ACs are proliferating because of PGI's stubbornness.

When PPCs ruled the Meta for half a year, PGI kept boosting other weapons (like AC10s and 5s) giving them lower heat, or faster RoF in order to try and compete with the uber PPC. Now that PPCs are back in their place, the buffed ACs rule.

Bring their heat back to Canon, and Shorten the over range from 3x to 2x... (good lord, the AC20 is doing PPC damage at PPC range...)

[Gozer]

I tried running my Awesome 8Q with 1 ER PPC and 2 PPC. Yeah... even with 22 DHS that's not happening well.

PPC's are rare now because they just are too hot. I can run a Large lasers, do more damage, and be more heat efficient. Or just run my triple AC/2 Hunchback and double to triple the damage. *Sigh*

[Calica]

I have to agree with the OP. Currently, the positive things a ERPPC has going for it (no ammo, pinpoint damage,high range) dont balance out the negatives (high usage of tonnage and crit space if you include DHS, low range, higher heat). ERPPCs lose out heavily against most Ballistics, except maybe the AC2s. But even those seem more useful then a ERPPC these days.

I rarely play my beloved Stalker since the PPC/ERPPC Nerf and judging from the last 100 games, they are going extinct. ATM Highlanders, Victors and Jagermechs dominate the Battlefields of 3050. Mostly Jagers, actually.

Something has to be done... Since a full rework of the heat system or even only the heatsinks is far behind the horizon, my best guess would be lowering the heat by 0.5 to 1 point, while keeping the nerf of a lower projectile speed. The double nerf just proved to be to much for the ERPPC. I'm not a fan of big changes, so make a slight adjustment and see how it goes from there. Even normal PPCs could use a bit less heat, since their usabillity has taken a heavy blow with the minimum range adjustment.


On a funny side note: Heat of double ERPPCs, especially on hot maps, leads to me getting a lot less heat warnings since the last salvo actually jumps the heat from 70 to 100+ (and thats on a 20 DHS Stalker). I never even get the warning cause these things are crazy hot.

[SirLANsalot]

ERPPC was reduced a while back in CB because people were bitching about it being too hot for SHS. When DHS came, it grew a little in popularity but not to any extravagant degree...yet. Now that the ERPPC/Gauss meta is gone (thank ******* god) because they returned ERPPCs back to there original heat, along with standards. Tts time to LEARN new weapons, or start taking NORMAL PPC's.

ERPPCs are now ment to be used as a SINGLE weapon. So those mechs that have only one energy slot in the arm, it works just fine for a good 10 damage gun. Pairs of ER's is where things get cookin, and you hope and pray you dont get Mordor or the Sahara.


If you want to use 2 PPC's then use normal ones, and no the 90m min is nothing to scoff at, since good piloting can take care of that (aka dont be a effing ****** and face hug the enemy mech). Using SRMs or banks of ML to backup and cover the 90m for the faster things that like to get in close (and you cant pull range) are good ways to balance out your mech.



TL;DR LEARN TO MECHLAB....I mean PLAY.

[Drasari]

SirLANsalot, on 06 October 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

ERPPC was reduced a while back in CB because people were bitching about it being too hot for SHS. When DHS came, it grew a little in popularity but not to any extravagant degree...yet. Now that the ERPPC/Gauss meta is gone (thank ******* god) because they returned ERPPCs back to there original heat, along with standards. Tts time to LEARN new weapons, or start taking NORMAL PPC's.

ERPPCs are now ment to be used as a SINGLE weapon. So those mechs that have only one energy slot in the arm, it works just fine for a good 10 damage gun. Pairs of ER's is where things get cookin, and you hope and pray you dont get Mordor or the Sahara.


If you want to use 2 PPC's then use normal ones, and no the 90m min is nothing to scoff at, since good piloting can take care of that (aka dont be a effing ****** and face hug the enemy mech). Using SRMs or banks of ML to backup and cover the 90m for the faster things that like to get in close (and you cant pull range) are good ways to balance out your mech.



TL;DR LEARN TO MECHLAB....I mean PLAY.

Sorry but you are wrong. We do not have double heat Sinks in game. We have 1.4HS. So no they are not balanced correctly.

I do not want the old PPC/Gauss Meta back, just some damn balance.

Not this DAKAKA fest we have now.

[John MatriX82]

15 heat is extremely punishing, probably a 13/13.5 should fit better; now equipping even 1 is rather hard to deal with the generated heat.