11 replies to this topic

[Rhinehart]

Hello fellow Mechwarriors.

I've seen a lot of posts on the forum about balancing the ability to customize Mechs when it comes to Non-Omni IS mechs that were built for a standard weapons fitting versus Omni Mechs of the Clans that are built to be more versatile.

I think there a several factors that should be included in the mechanics.

First of all, Everyone should be able to have a custom Mech given the right circumstances because that is true to the Mechwarrior/Battletech universe.

Given enough time, technical skill and cash/resources it is possible to customize a mech perfectly suited to either an individual warrior or a particular battlefield environment.

That being said, For the IS units it should take the previous resources in abundance.

For a long time during the sucession wars Mechs were put out in standard models because a great amount of technical skill and experience had been lost. Rather than being able to effect fine repairs on key systems, repairs were in fact wholesale replacement of systems because no one had the knowledge to do the fine repairs. In this timeframe the IS beginning to emerge from this technical lack, but only just in many places. Thus in order to customize a mech an IS player needs to acquire or hire the technical expertise to carry out the mods he wishes as well as the materials.

Cash: The IS runs on money. anything can be bought given enough coin, but coin doesn't come easy, especially for soldiers. Hard Cash to pay for modifications should be a consideration. Or perhaps even under the table "favors" might lead to a tech willing to do some mods for an enterprising merc. But currency of some kind should factor in.

Time. This is probably the most vital resource and the most scarce. It takes time to make mods to a mech. Some designs are more easily modded, while others are very difficult and tricky to work with. Time above all is a factor for IS mechwarriors but it should by no means be impossible. Difficult in many cases perhaps.

The Clans need the same resources to modify their mechs with a few changes. Clan Society does not strictly speaking use monetary units when it comes to allocating millitary resources. (Obviously it exists because of the merchant castes but it appears to be strictly divorced from all things millitary.) However a good substitue for money would be prestige.

For instance, Not all techs are equal. Some are better than others even among the Clans. How does one gain a suitable tech to switch out weapons, armor types or even make an engine change? The quality of Tech might well be reflective of the status of the warrior. Perhaps you might bid away an assignment to a different unit and in return be assigned a skilled tech from their maintenance pool. There are many scenarios here.

Prestige itself makes the most sensible substitue for money among Clan warriors. How will you convince your superiors to spend the time and resources modifying your Mech to the fittings you believe you need? If you are some wetnose young warrior fresh out of a sibko you probably won't have as much prestige as a young ristar making their fame on their way to a Bloodname. This could be a key factor in what exactly you are able to requisition and bidding could also be incorporated to some extent.

And Finally once again time. Just because Omni Mechs can change weapons pods much faster than IS mechs can change individual weapons does not mean no time is involved. It should be much less than what an IS standard mech faces but it should still be a factor.

This brings up a final point. Clan Omnimechs(indeed any Omnimechs) are so versatile because their weapons pods have universal connectors to the power systems of the mech. the Mech pods are interchangeable within a relatively short period of time. However this does not mean that each individual weapon within a pod can be quickly changed for another. It is my understanding that several pre-configured pods are usually available for short notice replacement of damaged or defective weapons. This might mean a Clan Mechwarrior should consider what sort of weapons Pod loadouts they have ready and available for their machine. The result would be that some thought should be put into configuring Pods in advance rather than simply having every single weapon on a Clan Omni be easily swapped in the same timeframe. Building Pods might take longer than configuring the actual Mech, but once built the pods swap easily. But what is the maximum number of pods available and how much/often can they be changed or more acquiered? Once again this could be regulated by the Prestige of the warrior as well as possibly bidding.

That's my take on the delimma of balancing Mech customization IS vs Clan. What's yours?

[Alistair Steiner]

I was considering this last night. While your ideas are great, mine are slightly different, and to be honest, nowhere near as cool.

In my mind, there's a F2P game already out there that does well with different weapons having different strengths, but also enough weaknesses so there is no truly "best" weapon. It all depends on the way the match is going, how you as a player work, and what is needed for your team: Team Fortress 2. Before I get flamed for bringing up the "war-themed hat simulator," hear me out.

I recently read an article bemoaning the massive advantage the Clans had. For example, the LRMs weight half as much. That's insane. What's the cost? A little extra heat. In my mind, that should be changed for MWO. Let the LRMs have half weight. But make them output significantly more heat. Maybe even notch down the damage a bit. Or do like MWLL and make it so they fire straight, while IS missiles follow an arc, so they can move over obstacles better.

I compare this to TF2 because of "Natascha," the first "new" minigun for the Heavy. The bullets cause their target to be "slowed," which is handy for hindering those speedy Scouts. However, it does less damage (30% less?), so it's nowhere near as effective for shooting down stronger, more static targets, particularly other Heavies. All weapons have benefits over others, but enough drawbacks so that they aren't inherently better. They simply are different to suit the play style of the player, or the situation at hand. While I don't suggest we have different "versions" of weapons for different situations, I do think that the Clan weapons can keep their benefits, so long as enough drawbacks are put into place to keep things even.

I hope that was enough on-topic for this thread. But again, your idea is way cooler.

[Hodo]

IS mechs can not be customized. That would like trying to move the GAU 8 on the A10 Warthog from the nose to under the wing while in the field. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Clan mechs had a HUGE advantage in this aspect as they had the "Pod" system. Inner Sphere mechs dont have any such luxury until around 3057-61.

[Rhinehart]

Actually IS Mechs can be customized. Go back to the original 3025 Tech manual first edition which lists prominent mechwarriors with each entry. While most piloted standard versions of IS mechs, a select few had customized versions. They were not usually complex, sometimes substituting only a single weapon system. But it can be done.

Another point

Yen-Lo- Wang

Actually a great deal of Solaris Seven mechs were heavily customized when it came to the champion fighters.

Finally, Both Battletech and Mechawarrior TT systems as well as the PC sims all have rules for customizing mechs. If it couldn't be done they wouldn't have rules for it.

That doesn't mean it should be easy, but it should be possible.

[Wolvers]

It's one of the advantages of IS, if you have the money and time, you can customize your mech. The Clans, whilst you can easily change pods in an Omni, you couldn't really customize any further.

The trouble is I guess, anyone can certainly make an improvement on the current official designs, but will everyone be happy to see 'munchkin' mechs in the future?

[Halfinax]

I think non-Omnimechs should have to stick to canon variants available within that era, but I know I'm within the minority in that regard. Omnimechs should be reasonably simple to upgrade, but with a prohibitive cost to add the new pod to the design.

[GreyGriffin]

Strictly in-universe, Omnimechs are more expensive to maintain. Podded weapons cost additional money to repair and replace because the fixtures they use are more complex. However, they can be slotted in and out with little difficulty, because of the nature of the Omni chassis and gyro. Omni arms and legs are also designed to be swapped out rather than repaired on the spot. It is this logistical flexibility, and ability to not strictly the ability to change loadouts, that acted as the clans' great force multiplier, especially in the early stages of the invasion. The ability to just ratchet on a new Mad Cat leg, rather than having to weld new chunks onto a fixed chassis, gave the well-equipped clans the ability to keep their Omnis in the fight. It is why they used nothing but omnimechs in the first wave - to keep moving.

Standard 'mechs, however, are notoriously difficult to modify, as is implied in fluff and in the TT game itself. Swapping a laser or two was no big deal, but moving weapons to different parts of the chassis, or significantly changing the loadout is a great way to develop a kink in your gyro or other unpleasant quirk.

For any 'mech, swapping out the armor or engine was a big, big deal, normally only performed on factory refits or factory variants.

In the end, though, I think the best solution would be a Mechwarrior 4 system of hardpoints, just with more flexible omni hardpoints.

[Hodo]

Rhinehart, on 11 November 2011 - 06:28 PM, said:

Actually IS Mechs can be customized. Go back to the original 3025 Tech manual first edition which lists prominent mechwarriors with each entry. While most piloted standard versions of IS mechs, a select few had customized versions. They were not usually complex, sometimes substituting only a single weapon system. But it can be done.

Another point

Yen-Lo- Wang

Actually a great deal of Solaris Seven mechs were heavily customized when it came to the champion fighters.

Finally, Both Battletech and Mechawarrior TT systems as well as the PC sims all have rules for customizing mechs. If it couldn't be done they wouldn't have rules for it.

That doesn't mean it should be easy, but it should be possible.

S7 is a different animal all together. S7 stables through millions of C-bills at mechs to make them more able to win in the arenas. And most of them fail badly and end up in the salvage pool.

[Jack Deth]

Something I think should be mentioned about Omni-mechs. They may be designed for weapons to be swapped easily, but aren't any easier to do heavy customization on (change engine rating, swap armour type, change fixed equipment, etc.) Another thing for clanners specifically, although you have nice fancy Omnis, most average mechwarriors (as far as fluff/canon) are going to be limited to picking one of the standard variants for each engagement, not mixing and matching a completely custom load-out. The only guys that seems to have the clout in the clans to put whatever they want on their mechs are a few legendary personalities that have variants named after them. Makes sense from a logistics standpoint, plus remember the clans tend to act a bit more like an organized, regimented military and don't seem to have the same tolerance for the "flying-ace" style personalities of the Inner Sphere mechwarriors.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Hodo, on 11 November 2011 - 05:40 PM, said:

Clan mechs had a HUGE advantage in this aspect as they had the "Pod" system. Inner Sphere mechs dont have any such luxury until around 3057-61.

3052, thank you very much for ignoring the Combine's technician/scientist castes.
3052: Raptor (Prime, A, B, C and D)
3054: Sunder (Prime, A and B configs)
3056: Owens (Prime, A, B, C and D), Firestarter-O (Prime, A, B, C and D)
3057: Owens (E), Strider (Prime, A, B, C and D)
3058: Raptor (E, F), Strider (E, F), Firestarter-O (E), Blackjack-O (Prime, A, B, C and D), Black Hawk-KU (Prime, A, B, C and D), Perseus (First non-DC IS Omni, Prime, A, B, C and D), Sunder ©
3059: Arctic Fox (Kell Hounds' Omni), Avatar.

Only the DC Omnis were deployed during Operation Bulldog, including the Avatar.
Not sure if the Raptor was in production by the time of the Battle of Tukayyid, though.

Edited by Alizabeth Aijou, 12 November 2011 - 04:31 AM.

[feor]

Main difference between an Omni-mech and a battlemech is indeed the time.

Swapping a weapons system on a battlemech can take days of work and a crew of a dozen with significant amount of heavy machinery.
Swapping weapon systems on an Omni-mech can (theoretically) be done in an hour with 1 guy, a crane, and a wrench. (less time than that even if you don't care what happens to the old part)

However, changing the base components of an Omni-mech is almost impossible to do without destroying its omni-capability. The whole mech will be designed around a carefully balanced fixed interior such that adding weapons on can be easily adjusted for by the gear's gyros. You mess up that balance even a little and the mech will become nearly unpilotable.

From what I've heard, the game is supposed to run in real time, i.e. 1 day of real world time = 1 day of in game time. (though I imagine there may be time jumps as they release expansion) And Battletech has pretty well flushed out customization and repair system. Let it figure out what repair or customization time is going to take, and it will take that long. If you want to swap out the engine on your mech, go nuts, but your mech's going to be out of commission for a couple of weeks.

Of course, you don't want people to not be able to play for that long, so while their mech's "in the shop" they can borrow a stock chassis from their employer. Repair costs stay the same but because it's a loaner from "the company store" you just pay the cash, there's no tiem involved, and you can continue to run missions in that while your mech gets fixed up.

[Hodo]

Alizabeth Aijou, on 12 November 2011 - 04:30 AM, said:

3052, thank you very much for ignoring the Combine's technician/scientist castes.
3052: Raptor (Prime, A, B, C and D)
3054: Sunder (Prime, A and B configs)
3056: Owens (Prime, A, B, C and D), Firestarter-O (Prime, A, B, C and D)
3057: Owens (E), Strider (Prime, A, B, C and D)
3058: Raptor (E, F), Strider (E, F), Firestarter-O (E), Blackjack-O (Prime, A, B, C and D), Black Hawk-KU (Prime, A, B, C and D), Perseus (First non-DC IS Omni, Prime, A, B, C and D), Sunder ©
3059: Arctic Fox (Kell Hounds' Omni), Avatar.

Only the DC Omnis were deployed during Operation Bulldog, including the Avatar.
Not sure if the Raptor was in production by the time of the Battle of Tukayyid, though.

While they were in development, many of them didnt make it passed the Swords of Light and Ryoken regiments.

Granted I did forget one very important mech that was a early pod design.

Hatamoto-Chi, Hi, Kaze, Ku, Mizo and what ever other ones they named them.

But they were designed with a modular feel to the mechs weapons.

Edited by Hodo, 13 November 2011 - 01:09 AM.