30 replies to this topic

[Sable Dove]

Hit detection is proportional to projectile speed, and is exacerbated by high latency.

The AC20, the old Gauss, and the current/classic PPCs suffer the most, while fast weapons like the new Gauss, any laser, or the small ACs will suffer less.

This is true of every online-multiplayer game that uses actual projectiles instead of hitscan weapons. The slower the projectile, the less consistent the hit detection.

Edited by Sable Dove, 09 October 2013 - 02:03 PM.

[Hythos]

Sable Dove, on 09 October 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

Hit detection is proportional to projectile speed, and is exacerbated by high latency.

The AC20, the old Gauss, and the current/classic PPCs suffer the most, while fast weapons like the new Gauss, any laser, or the small ACs will suffer less.

This is true of every online-multiplayer game that uses actual projectiles instead of hitscan weapons. The slower the projectile, the less consistent the hit detection.

I'd have to disagree. Projectile speed (and, scoring a hit with said weapon) is just a number. The server doesn't care how fast it's moving - it has a time-threshold with which to calculate, which might be tighter with faster weapons - but we see the results (or lack there of) instantly in some cases, up to a half-second later in others - irrelevant of the weapon used.


Why then would we still get a 'red flash' (reticle) if it's not a hit? MWO:Mercs DOES use "projectile physics" (remember: Projectiles are rewound as part of HSR implementation". We're getting a server-side confirmation of the hit. I guess a better way to describe it is that it's less hit detection, and more 'addressing damage' (lost cycle / calculation?).

[Sable Dove]

Hythos, on 09 October 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

I'd have to disagree. Projectile speed (and, scoring a hit with said weapon) is just a number. The server doesn't care how fast it's moving - it has a time-threshold with which to calculate, which might be tighter with faster weapons - but we see the results (or lack there of) instantly in some cases, up to a half-second later in others - irrelevant of the weapon used.


Why then would we still get a 'red flash' (reticle) if it's not a hit? MWO:Mercs DOES use "projectile physics" (remember: Projectiles are rewound as part of HSR implementation". We're getting a server-side confirmation of the hit. I guess a better way to describe it is that it's less hit detection, and more 'addressing damage' (lost cycle / calculation?).

I would guess that hit confirmation in MWO is actually done client-side. Just because you see a hit and your reticle lights up, doesn't mean you hit on the server.

It explains why the old Gauss (1200 m/s?) had atrocious hit detection, while the new Gauss (2000 m/s) has quite consistent hit detection. And why the PPCs have worse hit detection now that they've been slowed down. I'm guessing that the player doesn't actually receive server-side confirmation of a hit, aside from seeing damage on the enemy mech. Just the client-side indications.

[Kyrie]

Sable Dove, on 09 October 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

I would guess that hit confirmation in MWO is actually done client-side. Just because you see a hit and your reticle lights up, doesn't mean you hit on the server.

It explains why the old Gauss (1200 m/s?) had atrocious hit detection, while the new Gauss (2000 m/s) has quite consistent hit detection. And why the PPCs have worse hit detection now that they've been slowed down. I'm guessing that the player doesn't actually receive server-side confirmation of a hit, aside from seeing damage on the enemy mech. Just the client-side indications.

Yes, the entire discrepancy between registered damage vs client-side detection flashing red is precisely the problem. The client does not flash only on properly server-validated hits...

[Ghogiel]

Sable Dove, on 09 October 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

I would guess that hit confirmation in MWO is actually done client-side. Just because you see a hit and your reticle lights up, doesn't mean you hit on the server.

We know it's all sever authoritative
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1639015

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1587458
This dev statment directly contradicts your claim that it's possible that the reticle can flash red even if the server isn't confirming the hit.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1473069

[Sable Dove]

Ghogiel, on 09 October 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

We know it's all sever authoritative
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1639015

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1587458
This dev statment directly contradicts your claim that it's possible that the reticle can flash red even if the server isn't confirming the hit.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1473069

Thanks. Pretty hard to keep track of dev posts.

So it seems PGI has more problems than I thought.

It doesn't change the fact that faster projectiles make for more consistent hitting, as there is less time for discrepancies to form between the client and server (instances where a hit is scored, but the reticle doesn't light up because it wasn't a hit on the server). Making the projectiles faster wouldn't solve the actual lost hits, but it would help with things hitting on the client, but not on the server (which I honestly see more often).

[Corwin Vickers]

Hythos, on 09 October 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

My ping this match was ~80, the target was either 75 or 120ms. Though, the reticle still flashed red to indicate the server registered the hit.

Ghogiel, on 09 October 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

We know it's all sever authoritative
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1639015

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1587458
This dev statment directly contradicts your claim that it's possible that the reticle can flash red even if the server isn't confirming the hit.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1473069

Those dev posts are incredibly old and are not the case anymore. As he says in that first quote they were already trying to move away from you telling the server what you do, the server checking to see what happens, and then telling you what the result was. It was incredibly laggy if you rememeber.

HSR was when it changed I think.

So red flashy cursor does not necessarily mean a hit. As others have pointed out the red cursor even flashes when your projectile hits an object in front of you instead of your target.

The only thing that tells you you are aiming right is when their paper doll flashes and there is also a bug where that damage display can be delayed in getting to you.

But basically if you see one of your shots register on them note that aim lead and then continue using it. I think most people who play FPS's will internalize these leads for the most part.

[FireSlade]

it is still server authorative to prevent hack programs from modifying the RAM and having the client say "I killed him" and the server saying "ok". Instead your client says that it shot at this location, facing this direction and if everything checks out the server says "ok you killed him" but if things do not match up then the server ignores you. HSR is where the server tries to predict what you do a few fractions of a second ahead to compensate for the time that it takes for everyone to talk to the server. This is why we do not have to lead targets more than what to hit the mech. Back in MW3 we had to aim an inch or two in front of the mech to hit it with lasers and we all averaged 100-200 ping (back in the 56k days).

[Ghogiel]

Corwin Vickers, on 09 October 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

Those dev posts are incredibly old and are not the case anymore. As he says in that first quote they were already trying to move away from you telling the server what you do, the server checking to see what happens, and then telling you what the result was. It was incredibly laggy if you rememeber.

HSR was when it changed I think.

It's still server authoritative.

I guess people are thinking that HSR is client authoritative or something. It's not, HSR is the latency counter measure that compensates for the delay the client experiences while waiting receive server authorization for any actions. Including hit authentication.

Quote

So red flashy cursor does not necessarily mean a hit. As others have pointed out the red cursor even flashes when your projectile hits an object in front of you instead of your target.

The only thing that tells you you are aiming right is when their paper doll flashes and there is also a bug where that damage display can be delayed in getting to you.

But basically if you see one of your shots register on them note that aim lead and then continue using it. I think most people who play FPS's will internalize these leads for the most part.

Bet you 100 cbills the red flash is tied to a server authorization packet that the client has to have received before it displays it.

[Asmosis]

isnt the ac20 slug slower than other projectiles? i'd look it up but .. . where?

[Ghogiel]

Asmosis, on 09 October 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

isnt the ac20 slug slower than other projectiles? i'd look it up but .. . where?

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/